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Breaking: Jon Gruden Eyeing a Return to Coaching
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Estonianzulu

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 19768
Location: Middle of Nowhere VA

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject:

fatpig wrote:

if a coach comes here and fails, it won't have much impact on their legacy because so many have tried and failed before him.

George Seifert disagrees.
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NickZambo

Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Pittsburgh Browns Backin'

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject:

Please just say no to Gruden... he is heavily underrated and has been out of the league for too long. No thanks...
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Skipping over bruceb's posts since 2012

nugpimpen

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 12157
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject:

At this point for me, it's Perry Fewell, Chip Kelly or bust.

Sadly I think we bust.
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hornbybrown wrote:

We also have the highest amount per capita of Jedi in New Zealand. I'm one.

ReggieCamp

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 8679
Location: Canonsburg, PA

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject:

nugpimpen wrote:

At this point for me, it's Perry Fewell, Chip Kelly or bust.

Sadly I think we bust.

There are a lot of good coaches out there, certainly more than just Chip Kelly or Perry Fewell. The success of the coach has a lot more to do with people who aren't the coach than who is the coach. There's a better way to type that, but I don't feel like changing it. Smile

How ecstatic were fanbases when their teams hired Mike Smith or Mike Tomlin or Sean Payton or Mike McCarthy?
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cortes02

Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1452
Location: Unknown

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject:

BocaRatonBrown1 wrote:

There have been many QB guru's if you look even recently.

Holmgren
Favre
Hasselbeck

Walsh with Holmgren
Montanna
Young

Gruden
Gannon
Johnson

Don Shula
Bob Greise
Dan Marino

Bill Belichick
Tom Brady

- Vermeil
Kurt Warner
Trent Green

These are just the recent ones & I am sure you can think of many more.

Notice all these guys where either average college "NFL" type QBs not the Mike Vicks, John Elways, Lucks etc...

I have to respectfully disagree with you on several of the coaches you pointed out:

Bill Belichick in my opinion is not a QB guru at all. I honestly feel that Belichick got really lucky to have Brady fall into his lap. I'm very curious to see how Belichick does once Brady retires because even though he is considered a great coach, I believe that Belichick and NE wouldn't have won any Superbowls without Brady.

In regards to - Vermiel, Kurt Warner wasn't even a starter originally. Vermiel had to throw him into the fire once Trent Green was injured and then Trent never played for him again.

Don Shula was a great coach but Marino came in as a rookie and lit things up from the start and I doubt that Shula had anything to do with that. In regards to Griese He was just naturally talented. Had Shula been a QB guru, he would have been able to develop a QB once Marino left but he never could.

For Jon Gruden, he did salvage Gannons career but for Johnson he really was never very good.

Finally, in regards to Walsh and Holmgren I've always wondered if the west Coast system of that time made the QB's or did the coaches make the Qb's who they were. I'm still up in teh air about that.

I'd have to agree with Buno and say that there really is no such thing as a "QB Guru". You may have some coaches who fall into a great situation with a stud QB or the QB may fall into a system that they flourish in.

Peace!!
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buno67

Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 24034
Location: Chubs for Chud

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject:

BocaRatonBrown1 wrote:

Holmgren is the only coach who could be considered a QB Gure with his help on Montana, Young, Farve, and Hasselback but it comes to the question.

everyone else on the list I would not call a QB guru. Gruden did not develop Gannon or Johnson into stud QBs. Gannon was always a talented QB but was never given a chance to be a fulltime starter until he got to Raiders. Brad Johnson put up the same kind of stats befoe Gruden got there compared to the stats he put up when Gruden was there. the one thing that Gruden did to make Johnson look better was helped build an amazing defense and running game to back up Johnson.

Its hard to give Credit to Don Shula in developing Dan Marino. Marino was one of the best QB prospects of all time coming out of college.

Would not call Bill Belichick a QB guru at all. Never did anything for a QB when he was in Cleveland. If Cassel turned out better in KC then I would say yeah but Cassel sucks in KC. So that gets me thinking that Bill runs a great offense. Cassel looked great in NE but sucks in KC. Showing you either the offense he has is good for his QBs or he had a lot of talent around him but both of those reasons take away from his ability to groom QBs. If a coach only grooms one QB, im not gonna call him a guru.

The season before Green went to St. Louis he was pretty good for the Redskins. He signed with the Rams the year after but got hurt and never played for Vermeil in St. Louis. He did hit gold with Kurt Warner. So ill give you Vermeil too

so the past 15-20years we can only get 2 possible HCs that could possibly be considered a gure. Holmgren loses Credit for failing to ever develop a QB in Cleveland and Vermeil loses some credit because the two QBs he claim to develop were older QBs and the question to be asked about that is? what it Vermeils coaching or someone finally giving those older QBs chances to play
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pmk

Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 11658
Location: NYC

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject:

Bill Parcells: Phil Simms, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde's corpse 2x (Jets & Cowboys)
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Entropy

Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 1909

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject:

buno67 wrote:

BocaRatonBrown1 wrote:

I'm not sure what you guys mean by "QB guru". I hope we all agree that the success of QBs like Favre, Manning, and Brady was not coached as much as it was found.

I would also hope that we can agree that not being able to turn Colt McCoy into a top 15 QB was not the fault of anyone's coaching.
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ditchdigger

Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject:

This thread again?

New articles don't change the fact that it's a bad idea.

DawgSoldier

Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5947
Location: Medina OH

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:47 pm Post subject:

ditchdigger wrote:

This thread again?

New articles don't change the fact that it's a bad idea. In your opinion

There are others who disagree with you besides me. Feel free to ignore said threads if you like, those of us who are intrigued by the idea won't mind at all.
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DawgX

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 9909

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject:

BocaRatonBrown1 wrote:

Many of those guys are not "gurus". Belichick got lucky with Brady. Gruden helped Gannon but that was his only good quarterback. Did you really just bring up Brad Johnson? One of the reasons I don't want Jon Gruden is because he hasn't proven to have success with quarterbacks.

To those who want Gruden: tell me why you think he'd be a good head coach for the Browns. Like I said before, I wouldn't be totally opposed to him becoming Cleveland's next head coach, but there's several other candidates who I'd much prefer over him. As I said before, the Buccaneers were consistently mediocre during Gruden's tenure there.
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ditchdigger

Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:34 am Post subject:

DawgSoldier wrote:

ditchdigger wrote:

This thread again?

New articles don't change the fact that it's a bad idea. In your opinion

There are others who disagree with you besides me. Feel free to ignore said threads if you like, those of us who are intrigued by the idea won't mind at all.

Yes, in my opinion. That's what we share here. Opinions. Good on you for pointing that out.

Just seemed like something that could have fit in the thread not too far down the first page entitled "Next Head Coach candidates?" instead.

As far as agreements goes, your batting average wouldn't get you to the majors.

All it takes is one crazy billionaire to make it happen, though. So you've got that going for you.

DawgSoldier

Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5947
Location: Medina OH

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:37 am Post subject:

ditchdigger wrote:

DawgSoldier wrote:

ditchdigger wrote:

This thread again?

New articles don't change the fact that it's a bad idea. In your opinion

There are others who disagree with you besides me. Feel free to ignore said threads if you like, those of us who are intrigued by the idea won't mind at all.

The last HC I was wanting the Browns to sign and campaigning for was John Harbaugh. So I don't see anything wrong with my batting averge on HC's
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The Dawgpounds new three headed monster!

Adopt a Brown: QB Brandon Weeden
247/433 57% 2820yds 6.5avg 13 TD 15 Int

ditchdigger

Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:43 am Post subject:

DawgSoldier wrote:

ditchdigger wrote:

DawgSoldier wrote:

ditchdigger wrote:

This thread again?

New articles don't change the fact that it's a bad idea. In your opinion

There are others who disagree with you besides me. Feel free to ignore said threads if you like, those of us who are intrigued by the idea won't mind at all.

The last HC I was wanting the Browns to sign and campaigning for was John Harbaugh. So I don't see anything wrong with my batting averge on HC's

Correlation does not imply causation.

In layman's terms: That ain't got [bleep] to do with [bleep].

DawgSoldier

Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5947
Location: Medina OH

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:48 am Post subject:

Correlation does not imply causation. Nor does it refute it ether.
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The Dawgpounds new three headed monster!

Adopt a Brown: QB Brandon Weeden
247/433 57% 2820yds 6.5avg 13 TD 15 Int

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