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Jake Long isn't helping Ryan Tannehill
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2240
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
ProudDolphan47 wrote:
Long isn't getting beat to the inside, he's getting beat to the outside. Not buying that, sorry.


I've seen both. I even broke down a play a week or so ago where a delayed blitz came on the inside and was widely credited as a Long mistake, when in fact it was Richie Incognito's fault.

Beyond that, if a guy beats him to the outside there is a possibility the RB was supposed to support to that side. Its really hard to know what's going on in a ZBS from out couches. Its also worthy of note that no help is ever given to Long on his side. Hence teams scheme to delay blitzes to his side where he is on an island with Incognito largely drowning beside him. Meanwhile backs and TE's are giving tons of help to Martin and Jerry's side. Martin, as so many of my fellow Dolphins fans have pointed out, played most of his career in college in a ZBS, but he REQUIRES help, meanwhile Jake Long has had less than 6 months to adapt and is being skewered here for not being the best LT in the game. Yet another reason you make the system fit the players, not the other way around.

And again, what we are talking about being a bad season is something like 3 sacks surrendered on over 290 passing plays. Why we keep focusing on the shortcomings of one of our best players, as opposed to the shortcomings of our worst players is beyond me.


I've read, and participated, in this long running conversation. The truth is they need to do a better job as a group. Cohesiveness as a unit is key. As a unit they are half a season in, getting used to this new scheme.

Conclusion: this is a microcosm (sp) of the fins overall. They have to play almost perfect ball to win games. They just aren't talented enough to get away with mistakes. Because those particular plays often result in us losing, we as a fanbase can easily target those plays and overanalyze them. Other teams have an elite group that can make up for a mistake here or there. We don't have that....yet.

Stating we should trade/cut a player isn't the answer. Theres no doubt that all 5 of these guys have talent, its just adapting to it and making them come together as a unit. As the other units on offense get better, it will help this unit.

Nothing we can do now, but getting rid of talent is not the answer. Surrounding talent with more talent is the solution.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree again, Clutch. Spot on.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok as a line these guys are stunting the growth of our offense and killing our running game. What are we gonna do about it ?

This is a non issue ... we fans can go back N forth between logic and man-crushes all we want.

Jake Long is no Phinmun, he can recognize that he can recapture his future HOFer status with a team that uses man blocking. And the dolphins will not phinmun themselves either. They are not going to duplicate his contract.

So y'all can blame incognito and phantom injuries, even change the definition of the ZBS til' the cows come home. He is outta here unless we tag. And with all the linemen available this offseason that would be pure phinmunicity.
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Ok as a line these guys are stunting the growth of our offense and killing our running game. What are we gonna do about it ?

This is a non issue ... we fans can go back N forth between logic and man-crushes all we want.

Jake Long is no Phinmun, he can recognize that he can recapture his future HOFer status with a team that uses man blocking. And the dolphins will not phinmun themselves either. They are not going to duplicate his contract.

So y'all can blame incognito and phantom injuries, even change the definition of the ZBS til' the cows come home. He is outta here unless we tag. And with all the linemen available this offseason that would be pure phinmunicity.


C'mon Doc, seriously. You have good comments but geez. Let a guy have an opinion without belittling him.

You are right, he is outta here unless we tag him. I would be shocked to see us have Jake Long without the tag. Just my thought.

Jake has said he needs to be better. he was bad against Indy. However, he was really good the previous 2 or 3 games. I had Quinn in a FF pool and he netted me a zero. Not a tackle. He was matched up with Jake most, if not all of the afternoon.

I have said this from the start, I personally, not against watching Jake leave.....IF we have a quality replacement.

And Doc, you can say people are seeing what they want. But you are kinda doing the same thing with Martin. I have read your posts that state its because he is a rookie playing out of position. There has been nothing that has shown me has the quickness to go to the other side and excel.

Honestly: Jake isn't doing as well as we expect. Pouncey seems to be a budding star, Jerry and Incognito are what they are and Martin I think is a Fins pick so we have high hopes BUT he ain't nearly as good as we think... yet. Just my thoughts.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
Ok as a line these guys are stunting the growth of our offense and killing our running game. What are we gonna do about it ?

This is a non issue ... we fans can go back N forth between logic and man-crushes all we want.

Jake Long is no Phinmun, he can recognize that he can recapture his future HOFer status with a team that uses man blocking. And the dolphins will not phinmun themselves either. They are not going to duplicate his contract.

So y'all can blame incognito and phantom injuries, even change the definition of the ZBS til' the cows come home. He is outta here unless we tag. And with all the linemen available this offseason that would be pure phinmunicity.


C'mon Doc, seriously. You have good comments but geez. Let a guy have an opinion without belittling him.

You are right, he is outta here unless we tag him. I would be shocked to see us have Jake Long without the tag. Just my thought.

Jake has said he needs to be better. he was bad against Indy. However, he was really good the previous 2 or 3 games. I had Quinn in a FF pool and he netted me a zero. Not a tackle. He was matched up with Jake most, if not all of the afternoon.

I have said this from the start, I personally, not against watching Jake leave.....IF we have a quality replacement.

And Doc, you can say people are seeing what they want. But you are kinda doing the same thing with Martin. I have read your posts that state its because he is a rookie playing out of position. There has been nothing that has shown me has the quickness to go to the other side and excel.

Honestly: Jake isn't doing as well as we expect. Pouncey seems to be a budding star, Jerry and Incognito are what they are and Martin I think is a Fins pick so we have high hopes BUT he ain't nearly as good as we think... yet. Just my thoughts.


Clutch, ask yourself what separates Phinmun from everyone else who disagree with me. Why am i not belittling any of them ?
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Clutch. I agree with the point you made above. I said something similar a few backs although I fear it's going to be a recurring theme. We need to build solidarity. That's what we haven't had. Samson Satele is starting in Indy. Donald Thomas is getting snaps in New England. We still have Long. Third might be the charm here. I don't know but combined with Merc's point, I believe we might be wasting our breathe as time will surely improve our situation.

@ Merc You're point about letting an obviously great player have a little lee-way and a period of adjustment is great. It makes sense to me.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Clutch wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
Ok as a line these guys are stunting the growth of our offense and killing our running game. What are we gonna do about it ?

This is a non issue ... we fans can go back N forth between logic and man-crushes all we want.

Jake Long is no Phinmun, he can recognize that he can recapture his future HOFer status with a team that uses man blocking. And the dolphins will not phinmun themselves either. They are not going to duplicate his contract.

So y'all can blame incognito and phantom injuries, even change the definition of the ZBS til' the cows come home. He is outta here unless we tag. And with all the linemen available this offseason that would be pure phinmunicity.


C'mon Doc, seriously. You have good comments but geez. Let a guy have an opinion without belittling him.

You are right, he is outta here unless we tag him. I would be shocked to see us have Jake Long without the tag. Just my thought.

Jake has said he needs to be better. he was bad against Indy. However, he was really good the previous 2 or 3 games. I had Quinn in a FF pool and he netted me a zero. Not a tackle. He was matched up with Jake most, if not all of the afternoon.

I have said this from the start, I personally, not against watching Jake leave.....IF we have a quality replacement.

And Doc, you can say people are seeing what they want. But you are kinda doing the same thing with Martin. I have read your posts that state its because he is a rookie playing out of position. There has been nothing that has shown me has the quickness to go to the other side and excel.

Honestly: Jake isn't doing as well as we expect. Pouncey seems to be a budding star, Jerry and Incognito are what they are and Martin I think is a Fins pick so we have high hopes BUT he ain't nearly as good as we think... yet. Just my thoughts.


Clutch, ask yourself what separates Phinmun from everyone else who disagree with me. Why am i not belittling any of them ?



Awwww, don't get mad at him guys. For real. The view from his mom's basement just sucks. Laughing


You're always good for a laugh, I'll give you that. Laughing
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
bpastermack wrote:
It should be noted that a ZBS has nothing to do with Pass blocking it is a run blocking scheme. Pass Blocking in any scheme is almost always zone, and not man on man. So when we see Long struggling in the passing game, which is most of what people are seeing, then it has absolutely nothing to do with the scheme. ZERO. Something is amiss with him this uear, just as it was the end of last year. There is some sort of injury that is limiting him from being what he used to be. And I'm starting to think it's not going to get better. He has become an average LT. Below average in the passing game, and above average in the run game, even in a ZBS.


Denial is a river in egypt. What is special about this river, is that if you drink it's water, you will find yourself fighting a rigorously fierce campaign against reality. Facts will annoy you and your own eyes will And this post reads like one huge revealing burp.

First of all, zone and man blocking completely different in pass protection. In man pass protection, the lineman is assigned to a specific player on the opposing defense. In Zone blocking the offensive lineman is assigned and responsible for an area. He has to work more closely with the other linemen on some plays.

And just to be extra clear. There was NO zone blocking for Jake Long before the dude that replaced Henning got here. ZERO ....

He has become an average LT (as predicted) because he's being asked to do things that contradict his skill set even down to a muscle memory level.
Before, he knew who he was going to block and how as soon as the huddle broke unless the Center may made a call during pre snap.

Now he has an area and he has to stick to that area. He has a decision to make after the snap if there are no defenders in his assigned area. Most likely he would tandem block with Incognito.

He's never done this at Michigan, and he has had Man Blocking be his world for 6 years of high level football.

bpastermack wrote:

He has become an average LT. Below average in the passing game ...


Coincidentally when we switched schemes, he goes from 1st overall pick future HOFer to a player barely worth 6-8 mil annually ? because of a mysterious injury ? Brick wall


While I agree with you that there are times a guy blocks a zone and times he blocks a man, that is less scheme specific, and honestly 90% of the time in ANY offense they are blocking zone. If the DE loops inside he takes the guy coming out. Sometimes they will do a man blocking scheme in certain 3 step drops when the pass will get out quick, or sometimes on a role out type play. Same with the RB's. There are certain passing plays that they are designed to step right and take any man who leaks through and times they are asked to watch a certain player like the mike linebacker and other times he is the hot read if they blitz. None of this is scheme specific. I've never in my life seen an offense that man blocks in the passing game 100% of the time.

I'm not denying anything, I said he sucks this year. I'm just speaking football 101 facts.

Another football fact. Very few offenses run exclusively Man or exclusively Zone blocking running games either. Some do more of each than others, but all have both involved in their gameplanning. Even power running games who run man blocking occasionally run draw plays, off tackle choose your hole plays, or most of the wildcat stuff. All of that is usually a zone blocking style of run. And even Shanahan occasionally threw in a power running play from time to time.
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ovaw8lover


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people are overreacting regarding Long's struggles last week. Freeney posses a match up problem for him. It does not make him less of a player. Long will always struggle against Freeney. Just like Jonathan Ogden did. I expect Jake will bounce back this week and play solid the rest of the season. Now, he may give up a sack or two but when you compare it to the amount of pass plays, it is not that bad.
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovaw8lover wrote:
I think people are overreacting regarding Long's struggles last week. Freeney posses a match up problem for him. It does not make him less of a player. Long will always struggle against Freeney. Just like Jonathan Ogden did. I expect Jake will bounce back this week and play solid the rest of the season. Now, he may give up a sack or two but when you compare it to the amount of pass plays, it is not that bad.


Agree, Long is "not that bad", which is a problem when you are talking about paying him 8 figures a season. And that is where the problem lies...

He has been average at LT against average pass players and gotten worked over against guys like Freeney. It's not a knee jerk reaction when we have been saying it all season long.
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Russ57


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I knew more about OL assigments. Becasue I don't I can't say if a player is at fault or if it is our scheme.

What I am seeing is a lot of cases where an extra guy steps into the gap between Long's and Incognito's normal assignments. Typically this is a smaller player a RB might be able to handle. However it appears that Long is told to block the inside guy. That leaves his normal assignment, a DE/WOLB/pass rush specialist type against a RB at best. Seems we would be better off if he took his normal assignment and let the RB handle the blitzing player.

No doubt Long is our best, or second best, OL guy. All depends on how much he wants. Right now I'd let him walk before I'd pay the franchise tag rental for a year. However I felt the same way about Solia and that seemed to work out okay.
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Jetsman82


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You think there's any chance he hits FA?
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetsman82 wrote:
You think there's any chance he hits FA?


In many ways, I believe Jake Long could control his own destiny. I don't think the Dolphins will franchise him, but that is not out of the realm of possibility. I suspect they won't and if Jake is simply out to make top dollar then I think he may hit free agency. Personally, I believe the Dolphins should retain him. Yes, he has not been himself since Philbin came to town with this ZBS, but then again, he's played in the system for less than a year and is by most accounts still in the top quarter of the league at his position. In my opinion, the Dolphins would be making a mistake in not retaining him, but I don't think its an open and shut case.

The talent drain in Miami has been present, literally, since Jimmy Johnson arrived as head coach. Every new coach has come in with a new "system" that does "fit" the talent. Each new system leads to the departure of talented players and then, every few years, we let go of another coach, and bring in a new guy, with a new system. It is a recipe for sucking and we have become one of the top chefs of that recipe in the league.

At this early stage, I would say if Philbin and Sherman can't utilize a talent like Jake Long, then we should find another coach that can. I like Philbin and Sherman for the most part, but I'm sick of coaches that can't adapt to their players. We are simply setting ourselves up for more sucking if we can't build around the talent we do have.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I'd rather just commit to a coach for 5 years and let him do whatever he wants with the roster. I'm sick of firing coaches because of bad records.

No one laughed at San Diego's offense when Cam Cameron was there. No one's laughing at Baltimore's offense right now under Cameron. Why we had to fire the man after his 1-15 season in 2007, after only 1 year on the job, I don't understand. I think it was irrational although I recall at the time thinking he just didn't have the leadership ability to be a HC. I still don't think he does but his offensive knowledge is what we lost.

With Philbin it appears we've rebounded however to find someone with Cam's offensive expertise and strong leadership ability as well.

With Parcells, we brought in people who stuck to a philosophy that was out-dated and didn't work. Look at Sparano with the Jets now. Even worse than we he arrived. And how many people are asking Bill Parcells to come run their franchise? Not many.

We finally have a coach with a modern system and a 1st round QB who has shown us lots of good things. If Philbin wants Long around, we should re-sign him. If not, or if he wants way too much money, then we will let him walk. It's no secret. He's played sour this year and done nothing to warrant a contract in excess of $10M/yr.

The Jets were my pick to sign Jake Long if he hit free agency and I think he probably will although I agree with Mercury that retaining talented players is something we have a habit of not doing.

Here though, I think we should just keep the system in place for 4 or 5 years before we try and judge the results too harshly. If Long is a casualty of that, I'm comfortable.

Ultimately, I'd rather have the assurance we'll stick to the development of a West Coach Offense in Miami than be assured Jake Long's presence at LT over the next 5 years.
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Jetsman82


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
The Jets were my pick to sign Jake Long if he hit free agency and I think he probably will although I agree with Mercury that retaining talented players is something we have a habit of not doing.

It's something I'm keeping an eye on. The Jets would probably have to make some moves to have this happen, but it could work. I wonder if it would mean anything to Long to play for Sparano again.
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