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Jake Long isn't helping Ryan Tannehill
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Fender


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:


And just to be extra clear. There was NO zone blocking for Jake Long before the dude that replaced Henning got here. ZERO ....


So we just relied on the kindness of our opponents to never run stunts, twists etc? Please qualify this statement, because its my understanding ALL teams run a hybrid zone/man pass blocking scheme at least part of the time.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fender wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:


And just to be extra clear. There was NO zone blocking for Jake Long before the dude that replaced Henning got here. ZERO ....


So we just relied on the kindness of our opponents to never run stunts, twists etc? Please qualify this statement, because its my understanding ALL teams run a hybrid zone/man pass blocking scheme at least part of the time.


There are switch calls and things of that sort, but Doc is correct there. Henning ran a pure man blocking scheme, which meant that pre-snap, every lineman had a defender they were responsible for. Stunts would initiate switch calls, but that's not the same thing as zone blocking.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Damn', we've got a bunch of knee jerkers in this forum. Jake Long has had NO WHERE NEAR as bad of a season as many would have you believe. Yes, he had a bad game this last week. No doubt about it. But he is taking a lot of blame this season for mistake largely associated to Richie Icognito. Is he worth the largest salary in the league at his position? No. Probably not. However, he is a solid piece of the offensive line. Just because Tannehill is pressured of even sacked from the side that Long is on, doesn't mean its Long fault. This witch hunt reminds me a lot of the Sean Smith witch hunt the last couple of years. Its exhausting and largely unfounded.


Merc ... Sean Smith improved this season when no one other than you believed he could. This is not a situation where he was playing well all along and nobody saw it.
My stance was he was incapable of playing better and I was wrong. But you must know that he was not playing at this level in previous seasons.


No, Doc, I heard you mention it before. His body doesn't generate the quickness necessary for him to be more than what he is. He's smart. I'll give him that. I like smart. We all like smart. Sean Smith isn't quick enough and his inability to stay balanced and quickly turn--stiff in the hips, whatever you want to call it--is going to hold him to a certain threshold.

He's what he's always been. Mostly in good position because he's smart but unable to overcome his physical limitations.

Is he somehow magically different this year? I don't see it. Has he progressed a little? Sure. To some level of astonishing ability? Nope. Not to my eyes.
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WaterBear56


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Damn', we've got a bunch of knee jerkers in this forum. Jake Long has had NO WHERE NEAR as bad of a season as many would have you believe. Yes, he had a bad game this last week. No doubt about it. But he is taking a lot of blame this season for mistake largely associated to Richie Icognito. Is he worth the largest salary in the league at his position? No. Probably not. However, he is a solid piece of the offensive line. Just because Tannehill is pressured of even sacked from the side that Long is on, doesn't mean its Long fault. This witch hunt reminds me a lot of the Sean Smith witch hunt the last couple of years. Its exhausting and largely unfounded.


Merc ... Sean Smith improved this season when no one other than you believed he could. This is not a situation where he was playing well all along and nobody saw it.
My stance was he was incapable of playing better and I was wrong. But you must know that he was not playing at this level in previous seasons.


No, Doc, I heard you mention it before. His body doesn't generate the quickness necessary for him to be more than what he is. He's smart. I'll give him that. I like smart. We all like smart. Sean Smith isn't quick enough and his inability to stay balanced and quickly turn--stiff in the hips, whatever you want to call it--is going to hold him to a certain threshold.

He's what he's always been. Mostly in good position because he's smart but unable to overcome his physical limitations.

Is he somehow magically different this year? I don't see it. Has he progressed a little? Sure. To some level of astonishing ability? Nope. Not to my eyes.


From my view, Smith is just matching up more with the bigger number one receivers. His issue is with the smaller quicker number two's and three's. I think he is still the same good cornerback but I wouldn't call him elite by any stretch. That said, he is still vital to our defense, I want to see him come back and wouldn't be opposed to slightly breaking bank for him.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Damn', we've got a bunch of knee jerkers in this forum. Jake Long has had NO WHERE NEAR as bad of a season as many would have you believe. Yes, he had a bad game this last week. No doubt about it. But he is taking a lot of blame this season for mistake largely associated to Richie Icognito. Is he worth the largest salary in the league at his position? No. Probably not. However, he is a solid piece of the offensive line. Just because Tannehill is pressured of even sacked from the side that Long is on, doesn't mean its Long fault. This witch hunt reminds me a lot of the Sean Smith witch hunt the last couple of years. Its exhausting and largely unfounded.


Merc ... Sean Smith improved this season when no one other than you believed he could. This is not a situation where he was playing well all along and nobody saw it.
My stance was he was incapable of playing better and I was wrong. But you must know that he was not playing at this level in previous seasons.



Yes, Sean Smith has gotten better, and yes he is performing at a higher level than before. However, he was no where near as bad as the naysayers said. He had a few bad games and he was judged by his worst performances. Now, some see him as exceptional because of his best performances and others view him as sucking because of his worst performances. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Jake Long is the same thing. He is an exceptional lineman, learning a new system and people are shocked that he isn't the same? What? Give him a minute to adjust, and give the Dolphins a minute to replace the guy sucking hard right next to him. If a ZBS gives guys and "area" to protect, and not simple man assignments, its easy to understand why it might take a minute to get used to that. Throw in the fact that the guy to Long's right is a liability, thereby giving Long a bigger territory to protect and it makes sense that he's struggled compared to seasons before. Throw in, on top of that, that the Right Tackle requires assistance from the TE to play at even a mediocre level and suddenly you can understand that opposing defenses may flood the left side and exploit Incognito (and Long as a result).

Look, money is a real issue here. I'm not saying Jake Long deserves what he'll want. I'm not even saying we should pay him. I'm just saying pointing to Long as a weak point, is silly. He's better than John Jerry, Jonathon Martin and Richie Incognito by a LOOOONG shot. Lets focus on fixing holes. Long is not a hole. Even in his "bad" season he's given up something like 3 sacks. More than usual, but previously he wasn't carrying Richie Incognito's water as well.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Long, I just read this in the herald:

Quote:
"On the whole, the team has protected relatively well, allowing 16 sacks in 297 pass plays. Pro Football Focus rates the Dolphins as the league’s ninth-best pass-protection unit."


And then from Incognito himself regarding Jake Long:
Quote:

Incognito explained that offensive line play — particularly pass protection — is so complex that casual observers often place blame on the wrong player when things go sideways.


Added Inconito:
Quote:
“To the naked eye, it’s easy to say, ‘Oh, he [stinks], he messed up.’ But you don’t know exactly what’s going on.”

Which brings us back to Long, who — fairly or not — will always draw the most scrutiny. That’s the burden associated with being the No. 1 pick, as Long was in 2008.


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/08/3086957/new-look-doesnt-mean-a-different.html#storylink=cpy
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dolphan9954


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of me wonders if Long is struggling because the worst pass blocking linemen on the team is to his right. In a ZBS it would make sense because zones partially overlap, thus if Incognito hasn't fully grasped the system, or just doesn't have the lateral agility to make the quick decision. It's a different angle to think about. I think our biggest problem on the OL is our OG play. I want a veteran RG to play with Martin, and then a young LG if we keep Long.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long isn't getting beat to the inside, he's getting beat to the outside. Not buying that, sorry.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several reasons to explain why Jake Long seems to be having a down season:

1.) Richie Incognito @ RG is sub-par.
2.) Long's supposedly battling some injury we're not sure about.
3.) He's in a new scheme he's less familiar with.
4.) We're passing the ball more actively.
5.) He's struggles to secure the edge against good speed.
6.) Our RBs are of little use helping out.
7.) We have a rookie QB which surely invites pressure.
8.) Teams crowd the box because we lack weapons.
9.) And finally, he's always been a little over-rated I think.


You can't argue that JL has lost some luster this year but there are too many reasons to sit here and argue about which one is the cause of it all. It's a lot of little things. This week was a bad match-up for Jake Long and he lost on as many occasions as he won it seemed.

Until we get some weapons and start to make the opposing defense defend more of the field we're going to see defenses crowd the LoS and blitz Tannehill. Even if his numbers remain positive, we risk getting him hurt and our running game will be of no use making pass protection and play-action worse and worse with each passing week.

I can deal with Luck killing us because in reality the Colts were highly motivated that day and Luck played the best game of any rookie QB this year without question. We had opportunities to make plays and we didn't. End of story.

What we couldn't do was move the chains and you have to do it through the air when you can't run. Our running game won't get better until we add weapons that force defenses to stand back a little bit.

Indy pinned their ears back and killed us. Long got burnt because we put him in that position. He had to defend Dwight Freeney coming at him on nearly every snap.

Maybe we need to find a way to stop that from happening so brutally instead of complaining about a guy who as Merc pointed out is probably having a rough year.


A lot of people thought we were going to walk in there and whip Indy but let me tell you something. We don't have Reggie Wayne nor do we have the ability to stand here and say we drafted BOTH of the best TE prospects in any draft, let alone one which feature 2 very good guys in Fleener and Allen. With Wayne, Allen and the others who played, Luck had what he needed.

We simply didn't. The fact we lack weapons is hurting us across the board. This is the pain of rebuilding. Sam Bradford is a fine QB but StL fans have to watch him get killed over and over because of this. Ask them how they feel.

We're lucky. We only have to wait a few more games, watch the Play-Offs, watch the Super Bowl and then wait 2 months for the draft at which point be able to take this ship into safe harbor for repairs.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please send me a link to the mention of problems with Incognito before jake long's play level was questioned.

No don't get me wrong I know incognito is a plodder who lacks the athletic ability but why this campaign now. Some of you got this HEro complex bad. I admire the loyalty but JAKE LONG himself says he is having a bad year. He's making to much money for that. He's only allowed to have a bad game here and there.

Phinmum please reread my comment on Sean Smith and then reread that stupid reply you had. Please explain how that makes any sense.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
please send me a link to the mention of problems with Incognito before jake long's play level was questioned.

No don't get me wrong I know incognito is a plodder who lacks the athletic ability but why this campaign now. Some of you got this HEro complex bad. I admire the loyalty but JAKE LONG himself says he is having a bad year. He's making to much money for that. He's only allowed to have a bad game here and there.

Phinmum please reread my comment on Sean Smith and then reread that stupid reply you had. Please explain how that makes any sense.


Easy now fellas....
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
please send me a link to the mention of problems with Incognito before jake long's play level was questioned.

No don't get me wrong I know incognito is a plodder who lacks the athletic ability but why this campaign now. Some of you got this HEro complex bad. I admire the loyalty but JAKE LONG himself says he is having a bad year. He's making to much money for that. He's only allowed to have a bad game here and there.

Phinmum please reread my comment on Sean Smith and then reread that stupid reply you had. Please explain how that makes any sense.


Haha...predictable! Laughing Repeat, repeat, repeat, attack, complain to Mod.

Seen this dance before Laughing


Well, there are several things that you go on about like scheme which has nothing to do with sealing the edge. When Freeney is in your "zone" and he rushes to the outside, how does scheme then affect whether you're going to get beat or not?

It doesn't. At that point, you're 1-on-1 with a great rusher.

I think the majority of people understand that and are more inclined to see the simple reasoning in that idea versus the basic concepts you've been repeating over and over regarding our new blocking scheme which don't lead to any type of formal conclusion or even a real answer.

I don't have to say again what I think of Long. Great guy. Down year. Lots to discuss and lot's of reasons but we've been there, done that.

I blame those 1-on-1 sacks on Long but I remind people like you who want to talk stats that if this guy was apparently so highly touted in years past then how can the same weakness (against the same guy ironically) be so bad now? It's just more apparent because of the new offense and the players.

I'm not retyping what I just posted, either. To hell with that.

You'll have to explain why I'm stupid. I believe my thoughts on Sean Smith are more deeply thought out and expressed more effectively to be honest.

You say he's playing great now but beyond what hype Hard Knocks and forum posters sold you, I'm hard pressed to believe you have anything to show for that idea.

I just posted a response to Merc in the CB thread regarding what I do and don't see in Sean Smith. You are welcome to read that if you want more of my thoughts on his play.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
please send me a link to the mention of problems with Incognito before jake long's play level was questioned.

No don't get me wrong I know incognito is a plodder who lacks the athletic ability but why this campaign now. Some of you got this HEro complex bad. I admire the loyalty but JAKE LONG himself says he is having a bad year. He's making to much money for that. He's only allowed to have a bad game here and there.

Phinmum please reread my comment on Sean Smith and then reread that stupid reply you had. Please explain how that makes any sense.


Haha...predictable! Laughing Repeat, repeat, repeat, attack, complain to Mod.

Seen this dance before Laughing


Well, there are several things that you go on about like scheme which has nothing to do with sealing the edge. When Freeney is in your "zone" and he rushes to the outside, how does scheme then affect whether you're going to get beat or not?

It doesn't. At that point, you're 1-on-1 with a great rusher.

I think the majority of people understand that and are more inclined to see the simple reasoning in that idea versus the basic concepts you've been repeating over and over regarding our new blocking scheme which don't lead to any type of formal conclusion or even a real answer.

I don't have to say again what I think of Long. Great guy. Down year. Lots to discuss and lot's of reasons but we've been there, done that.

I blame those 1-on-1 sacks on Long but I remind people like you who want to talk stats that if this guy was apparently so highly touted in years past then how can the same weakness (against the same guy ironically) be so bad now? It's just more apparent because of the new offense and the players.

I'm not retyping what I just posted, either. To hell with that.

You'll have to explain why I'm stupid. I believe my thoughts on Sean Smith are more deeply thought out and expressed more effectively to be honest.

You say he's playing great now but beyond what hype Hard Knocks and forum posters sold you, I'm hard pressed to believe you have anything to show for that idea.


The only thing predictable is your paint dry style 5000 word count. And who is complaining to the mod ? you phinmun. (That's what i call people who have combined several annoying traits to form a new supertrait to annoy the masses)

I told Merc, that I was wrong about Sean Smith, and here you go ... "No Doc, I heard you mention it before. His body doesn't generate the quickness necessary to ... go choke yourself
What are you talking about ... you are like all of our exes .... just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.
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Last edited by dolphinologist on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dolphan9954


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really believe that Incognito is the problem with Long, but at the same time it is worth noting. A lot of the pressure that last come off the left side has come from apparent miscommunication between Long and Incognito, or those two with the backs. All I'm saying it is a trend that shouldn't be forgotten.

Talking point: Do you guys think that Jake Long is to big for the ZBS? He is 6'7 319. Would cutting 8-10 pounds increase the agility, and he could get by on using his length? Or do you think his problem is fundamental, or square peg round hole?

I think his struggles are exaggerated, but I get it. He isn't playing up to par, and if he is going to be on the hook for a fat amount of dough, he needs to step up. He is still a top 10 LT, but at the same time top 10 LT don't make 10% of salary caps.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
Long isn't getting beat to the inside, he's getting beat to the outside. Not buying that, sorry.


I've seen both. I even broke down a play a week or so ago where a delayed blitz came on the inside and was widely credited as a Long mistake, when in fact it was Richie Incognito's fault.

Beyond that, if a guy beats him to the outside there is a possibility the RB was supposed to support to that side. Its really hard to know what's going on in a ZBS from out couches. Its also worthy of note that no help is ever given to Long on his side. Hence teams scheme to delay blitzes to his side where he is on an island with Incognito largely drowning beside him. Meanwhile backs and TE's are giving tons of help to Martin and Jerry's side. Martin, as so many of my fellow Dolphins fans have pointed out, played most of his career in college in a ZBS, but he REQUIRES help, meanwhile Jake Long has had less than 6 months to adapt and is being skewered here for not being the best LT in the game. Yet another reason you make the system fit the players, not the other way around.

And again, what we are talking about being a bad season is something like 3 sacks surrendered on over 290 passing plays. Why we keep focusing on the shortcomings of one of our best players, as opposed to the shortcomings of our worst players is beyond me.
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