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StLunatic88


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now if you have suddenly gotten the yipps about Saffolds ability to be a LT, then we need to be having a completely different discussion. If that it, then you have been arguing on a hidden premise which makes it impossible to have any real debate.

And if thats is the debate, I know its based around this completely inflated injury history and some BS that he cant stay healthy. Yes those 3 injuries he has had in 3 years (one of which he didnt even cause him to miss a start). And the other 2 were completely freak ones.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
You essentially just repeated what I said about him, which is exactly what makes him a LT in anything other than a ZBS. And the clear attitude we are trying to present is the exact opposite. Im well aware we need Pass blocking, but our RT needs to be one of if not the tone setter for the run game. And Lane will never be able to be that guy.


No, he doesn't need to be. Our RT needs to be reliable pass protector. If he's an excellent run blocker, great. But we have a talented pocket passer and we need to keep him upright...like the Patriots have done with Brady.

Quote:
There are so many better options as Right Tackles for this team, and they all can be gotten later, while not being completely out of position. You arent going to go from being just an effort blocker to the bulldozer in the Run game based purely on alittle better Tecnique and an NFL S&C program (which Oklahoma is one of about 20 College programs that are just 1 step under NFL level in that department).


Name one.

And yea, you can. You can definitely improve significantly with extra functional strength, more bulk and improved technique.

And spare me the OU garbage. He's been an OT for 2 years. It's pretty clear that his frame is far from filled. Don't try to throw some dots out there and act like they should be connected. Reid Fragel goes to OSU and he is another guy with a lot of growth potential.

Quote:
I think he can be a very good LT in the League, possibly eve Damn Good, but he will be eaten up as a RT in most NFL offensive schemes.


I can't see how you think the guy can be a damn good LT then remark that he'd be "eaten up" at RT. What is going to eat him up? Is he suddenly going to be a less competent pass protector because he's not blocking the blindside?

The kid can keep Sam upright and is great insurance for Saffold. That's what should take precedence. Not if he's able to push a guy 15 yards backwards in the run game. Pass blocking > Run blocking at OT.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
Now if you have suddenly gotten the yipps about Saffolds ability to be a LT, then we need to be having a completely different discussion. If that it, then you have been arguing on a hidden premise which makes it impossible to have any real debate.

And if thats is the debate, I know its based around this completely inflated injury history and some BS that he cant stay healthy. Yes those 3 injuries he has had in 3 years (one of which he didnt even cause him to miss a start). And the other 2 were completely freak ones.


Yips about his ability to be LT? No. I think he's a good LT on the field. Am I worried about his ability to stay on the field? Yes. And if he has another year filled with injuries, I don't know if we'll be extending him. And in that case, the Lane Johnson pick becomes that much more important.

It's insurance, flexibility and a damn talented kid who would help this team on both sides of the OL.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you are aware of the inharent difference in REs and LEs in an NLF defense, so yes RTs need to have a different skill-set than LTs because they are dealing with completely different animals. His skill-set does not lend himself to be an NFL RT in anything other than a ZBS, and we dont run that. I gave him the benifit of the doubt when pseudo-scouts kept saying that he could play on the Right side until I got to see him. And when I watched him today it was Glaringly obvious that he needs to be on the Left Side. You keep wanting to comp. him to Duane Browm, and that is probably spot on, but no one in their right mind would be putting Brown on the Right Side in a PBS.

Again, you are taking him as a Fail-Safe for next season incase Saffold doesnt work out, that is a bad way to go about a draft. Actually completely backwards to be doing all of that, instead of believing in your players. You have created this argument that makes sense to you and you clearly wont move off it, but the tape today shows that he does not posses the inherent tools & abilities to be on the Right side. Sure he can get stronger, but guess what, so will the guys he is going against (like others pointed out) and if he would flip to the Right side now they would already be stouter & stronger.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
I know you are aware of the inharent difference in REs and LEs in an NLF defense, so yes RTs need to have a different skill-set than LTs because they are dealing with completely different animals. His skill-set does not lend himself to be an NFL RT in anything other than a ZBS, and we dont run that. I gave him the benifit of the doubt when pseudo-scouts kept saying that he could play on the Right side until I got to see him. And when I watched him today it was Glaringly obvious that he needs to be on the Left Side. You keep wanting to comp. him to Duane Browm, and that is probably spot on, but no one in their right mind would be putting Brown on the Right Side in a PBS.

Again, you are taking him as a Fail-Safe for next season incase Saffold doesnt work out, that is a bad way to go about a draft. Actually completely backwards to be doing all of that, instead of believing in your players. You have created this argument that makes sense to you and you clearly wont move off it, but the tape today shows that he does not posses the inherent tools & abilities to be on the Right side. Sure he can get stronger, but guess what, so will the guys he is going against (like others pointed out) and if he would flip to the Right side now they would already be stouter & stronger.


I'm not taking him as a fail safe. I'm taking him because I believe he's a great OT. That freaking simple. You choose to believe that he can't play RT. Go for it. I think you're completely wrong.

But don't try and tell me what MY intentions are. You have no clue. No clue whatsoever about that.

And you're insulting all of our intelligence if you're trying to sell the point in bold. We both know that certain players have far more growth potential than others.

As for the tape proving today, the tape showed him shutting his man down just about the entire game. Didn't allow his QB to be touched. If you think he lacks the tools to play the Right side because he doesn't blow people off the ball, you can have Barry Richardson.

Me? Protecting Sam is the #1 priority. Johnson isn't a liability either in the run game. The guy does a great job of sticking to his man, not allowing him to break the block and finishing the block through the whistle. He's just not the type that blows his man 5 yards off the LOS. And you know what? That's just fine. I'd much rather have a guy who is a stone-wall in pass protection and controls but doesn't dominate his man as a run blocker than a guy who dominates his man as a run blocker but gets beat in pass pro.

So...why don't you name us these numerous better RTs?
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
I know you are aware of the inharent difference in REs and LEs in an NLF defense, so yes RTs need to have a different skill-set than LTs because they are dealing with completely different animals. His skill-set does not lend himself to be an NFL RT in anything other than a ZBS, and we dont run that. I gave him the benifit of the doubt when pseudo-scouts kept saying that he could play on the Right side until I got to see him. And when I watched him today it was Glaringly obvious that he needs to be on the Left Side. You keep wanting to comp. him to Duane Browm, and that is probably spot on, but no one in their right mind would be putting Brown on the Right Side in a PBS.

Again, you are taking him as a Fail-Safe for next season incase Saffold doesnt work out, that is a bad way to go about a draft. Actually completely backwards to be doing all of that, instead of believing in your players. You have created this argument that makes sense to you and you clearly wont move off it, but the tape today shows that he does not posses the inherent tools & abilities to be on the Right side. Sure he can get stronger, but guess what, so will the guys he is going against (like others pointed out) and if he would flip to the Right side now they would already be stouter & stronger.


I'm not taking him as a fail safe. I'm taking him because I believe he's a great OT. That freaking simple. You choose to believe that he can't play RT. Go for it. I think you're completely wrong.

But don't try and tell me what MY intentions are. You have no clue. No clue whatsoever about that.

And you're insulting all of our intelligence if you're trying to sell the point in bold. We both know that certain players have far more growth potential than others.

As for the tape proving today, the tape showed him shutting his man down just about the entire game. Didn't allow his QB to be touched. If you think he lacks the tools to play the Right side because he doesn't blow people off the ball, you can have Barry Richardson.

Me? Protecting Sam is the #1 priority. Johnson isn't a liability either in the run game. The guy does a great job of sticking to his man, not allowing him to break the block and finishing the block through the whistle. He's just not the type that blows his man 5 yards off the LOS. And you know what? That's just fine. I'd much rather have a guy who is a stone-wall in pass protection and controls but doesn't dominate his man as a run blocker than a guy who dominates his man as a run blocker but gets beat in pass pro.

So...why don't you name us these numerous better RTs?



I know I am intruding on this debate, but if I may.....

It really sounds as if you guys are in an agreement more than a debate. It boils down to; Lane Johnson is a good prospect, but needs to improve in certain areas to be considered a true RT prospect. That's the nationwide knock on him, no real surprise there.

I do want to add that his profile and the way many people describe him reminds me (nearly verbatim) of how people spoke of Jason Smith coming out of college.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:



I know I am intruding on this debate, but if I may.....

It really sounds as if you guys are in an agreement more than a debate. It boils down to; Lane Johnson is a good prospect, but needs to improve in certain areas to be considered a true RT prospect. That's the nationwide knock on him, no real surprise there.

I do want to add that his profile and the way many people describe him reminds me (nearly verbatim) of how people spoke of Jason Smith coming out of college.


Also the same way they spoke of Duane Brown and Joe Staley. We got burned with the Smith pick...although it was a pick I hated at the time. But I think there are some pretty glaring differences between the two(Smith and Johnson) as prospects.

Consider this, JJ Watt's profile and the way people described him as a prospect was extremely similar to that of Adam Carriker. Even were taken in very similar spots in the draft. And yet Watt is arguably the best defensive player in football while Carriker was a bust for us(solid player for Wash).

We got burned by Smith but we can't be afraid of making a pick because there are some parallels. Just gotta trust your evaluation skills. And I'm far higher on Johnson than I was on Smith.

But I understand your point.

We are in agreement on certain things, we just don't agree on Johnson's limitations and his overall upside.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Flatlyner


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone stand out to you guys at the Senior Bowl this week? Guys that stood out to me :

R.Alford CB - Looked fantastic in coverage, particularly for a small school kid

L.Johnson LT - Looked like a excellent LT prospect, good feet and quickness, did not let his man beat him

Cyprien FS - From out of nowhere, now could possibly be counted amongst the top FS in this draft. Looked good in what little I have seen of him. Rangy and can come up and put a hit on

T.Williams WR - Did not get to see a ton out of him, but what I saw, of the catchable balls thrown his way is natural catching hands, length, and speed to get past his man. On the short routes I saw him run, the throws were at bit off and there was some good coverage, but all in all, I saw what I thought I'd see.

B. Winters OG - Just looked nasty out there, didn't get beat much if at all

Trufant - Agressive, tight coverage. Probably some of the best man coverage of the week, though Wheaton did get by him

Wheaton - Looked great in all aspects

Q. Patton WR - Ditto for Patton. He is surely in the discussion for 2nd round pick status now, as is Wheaton

M.Goodwin WR - Excellent speed and looks to have good hands. Could be a real weapon with a QB that can throw him the ball.

Z.Gooden - Looked like the most athletic fluid LB out there, very nice in coverage

There is really many more but thats just a few I got good looks at.
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Halradio


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my two cents on the OT situation.

On the left side IMO Saffold is a solid LT. The kicker with him is he has missed 13 games over the past two years due to injuries.

Honestly IMO it really doesn't matter how he got hurt. The fact remains he was injured bad enough to miss 7 games in 2011 and 6 games this past season. When you're shelling out $50 million guaranteed to your QB, you better have solid play at LT and that can't happen plugging in the likes of Wayne Hunter, Barksdale, or (insert name here) because your starter can't go.

Not to mention this is a contract year for Saffold and extensions for starting LTs don't come cheap. If I was a GM, I would certainly pause before paying out big money for a guy that missed more than a quarter of the season two years running.

In short IMO if one of the top OTs is available at 16 the Rams will seriously consider it.

As for RT, Richardson is severcible at best. However, the Rams can certainly do worse.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:



I know I am intruding on this debate, but if I may.....

It really sounds as if you guys are in an agreement more than a debate. It boils down to; Lane Johnson is a good prospect, but needs to improve in certain areas to be considered a true RT prospect. That's the nationwide knock on him, no real surprise there.

I do want to add that his profile and the way many people describe him reminds me (nearly verbatim) of how people spoke of Jason Smith coming out of college.


Also the same way they spoke of Duane Brown and Joe Staley. We got burned with the Smith pick...although it was a pick I hated at the time. But I think there are some pretty glaring differences between the two(Smith and Johnson) as prospects.

Consider this, JJ Watt's profile and the way people described him as a prospect was extremely similar to that of Adam Carriker. Even were taken in very similar spots in the draft. And yet Watt is arguably the best defensive player in football while Carriker was a bust for us(solid player for Wash).

We got burned by Smith but we can't be afraid of making a pick because there are some parallels. Just gotta trust your evaluation skills. And I'm far higher on Johnson than I was on Smith.

But I understand your point.

We are in agreement on certain things, we just don't agree on Johnson's limitations and his overall upside.


I didn't mean to imply that we should avoid Lane based on the similarities to Jason Smith, just wanted to point it out.

I don't see how Watt and Carriker were similar prospects. No one was even sure whether Carriker would play DT or DE. I don't remember that being the case with Watt, but I could be wrong.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some new guys who I like more coming out of the Senior Bowl:

Sio Moore LB UConn - I love him flying around the field, he is just a good player and a high energy guy who I would love as our Sam.

Blidi Wreh-Wilson CB UConn - Love these long CBs, he was blanketing his men all day

Robert Alford CB Southeastern Louisiana - Gotta love the return abilities, but he was another guy who just looked smarter than everyone else out there, making great reads & breaks on the ball

Datone Jones DL UCLA - Blew up like I thought he would, just so quick & powerful with really good leverage & balance

Michael Buchanan OLB Illinois - If we ran a 3-4 I would be all over this guy

Marquise Goodwin WR Texas - Everything he did just looked a gear faster than everyone else

Conner Vernon WR Duke - Just knows how to get open, a guy I would love on our team

Brian Winters OL Kent St - Love his nasty demeanor. just really solid all around

Kyle Long OL Oregon - Here is the guy I think Im really drawn too. He has everything we want in our lineman; massive size, powerful, athletic, extremely versatile, and a ton of untapped potential. He could be LG, RG or RT for us right away, and with everything you see he could grow into an NFL LT.

I would love to have all these guys, but Moore, Vernon & Long are the guys I would really like on our squad next season.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another side note; How awful were these QBs?

-Manuel showed some nice things, he is a player, not a prospect. He isnt going to wow in workouts, but when he gets in a game he can take over
-Glennon is dripping with the tools that coaches love, but there is so much that screams bust, and the game seems too fast for him right now
-Never saw anything special in Wilson, and this week confirmed it. He doesnt have the zip to push balls downfield, most of his throws were no further than 4 yards, he is a check down machine. This year at Arkansas might have ruined him. Dont get the 1st round talk, especially the top 15 crap.
-The hype train that was Nassib should hopefully be derailed now. He just doesnt have it to preform at this level. Decent backup & nothing more.
-How can Mayock continue to call Landry a potential 1st rounder? If he goes before the 4th its an atrocity, and even in the 4th i wouldnt touch him.
-Dysert is just a mess, nice athlete, but nothing says NFL caliber QB. Maybe he makes someone a fun Backup?
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holt_bruce81


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like 98% of mock drafts now have us selecting Vacarro at #16. Just a blah pick to me.
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StLunatic88


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holt_bruce81 wrote:
Seems like 98% of mock drafts now have us selecting Vacarro at #16. Just a blah pick to me.
Its a completely awful pick to me.

I find it funny seeing how many people actually think Warmack will be going Top 10. If any guard is worth it, yea its Chance, but they just dont get taken that high. Im not saying he is a lock to get to #16 for us, but people who have him going at like #7 to Arizona are just absurd, even #10 to Tennessee doesnt make sense.
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NVRamsFan


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
holt_bruce81 wrote:
Seems like 98% of mock drafts now have us selecting Vacarro at #16. Just a blah pick to me.
Its a completely awful pick to me.

I find it funny seeing how many people actually think Warmack will be going Top 10. If any guard is worth it, yea its Chance, but they just dont get taken that high. Im not saying he is a lock to get to #16 for us, but people who have him going at like #7 to Arizona are just absurd, even #10 to Tennessee doesnt make sense.


I see a lot lately that have Warmack 7 to the Cards and Cooper 10 to the Titans. Just don't see them going that early.
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