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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 47601
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:


If you think guards that are plus pass and run blockers are harder to find than WRs with elite return skills, pass catching skills, and that can also run the ball, then let's make a list of those guys that are currently in the NFL.


I don't much care which is harder to find. Nobody cares that Harvin can run the ball. That's why you have runningbacks. It's nice that Harvin can take a few hand offs over the year but there are many WRs capable of that. Teams just don't do it.

Harvin is being traded here for his receiving and return skills...correct? Bailey, Patterson and Austin all offer that same package. In fact, both Patterson and Austin have shown the ability to run the ball as a HB but I don't much care because I'm not interested in using them as HBs except for an occasional creative/trick play.

What I care is about who will be the better player at their position in relation to their peers and who will have a greater positive impact on the team. I believe Warnack will.

Quote:
Let's see, there is Randall Cobb, Percy Harvin, and oh, that's it (Time will tell, but you're boy T.Y. Hilton could end up on this list). Lunatic already made the list of guards, and it was considerably longer.


And yet I can create a rather large list of WRs that are better than Harvin...which is what we need...a great WR.

Quote:
Just because a guy has a similar set of athletic skills, does not mean he can do what Percy Harvin can do. Recent NFL History says that almost no one can actually. Go ahead, name a guy from the last ten years that can do all the things Percy can. I'm waiting.......


Tavon Austin and Cordarrelle Patterson have both shown the ability to do what Harvin does.

And again, as I told you before, I don't give a rat's behind what special things Harvin can do. I'm trading a high pick for him because I believe he's a great WR. In that context, is he really? How many WRs are better than him?

Quote:
That's an argument I would be willing to hear (Austin over Harvin), but I'm not sure why you think Percy is going to be looking for #1 WR type of money. He is coming off of a season ending injury and is perceived around the league as being high maintenance. He's not going to demand V-Jax type of money.


You just told us why he's going to be looking for that type of money. He's a high maintenance diva.

The J.R.S. wrote:


LOL, you're blaming Larry Fitzgerald's poor season on guard play? That's hilarious Jrry.


Well, if you were capable of reading, you'd realize that I blamed it on OL play. Not OG play. Why OL play? Their terrible OL got Kolb hurt...Fitz was producing with Kolb. Kolb goes down...bam...Fitz's season is ruined.

Quote:
I'm not arguing that guards are not important to an effective offense, and never have. So you guys can stop needlessly pointing out that guards help the run game etc. Oh by the way, Percy Harvin helps the run game too, because be runs the ball. Oh, and he regularly flips field position with his explosive return skills. What effect does an offensive guard have on special teams?


If Percy Harvin is running the ball enough to have an effect on the run game then we have a problem and he's probably not going to stay healthy.

Quote:
If you are going to use salary as an argument, there is a flip side to that point as well. Warmack will need a new contract when he is hitting his prime, Percy is already in his.


That's 5 years down the line. Why do you think picks are so valuable? They're a cheap way to add young talent.

There is no flip side to the argument. That's an argument you can't win. Just like I can't win the special teams argument.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And J.R.S., I think you're missing the point, we're not trading a first round pick for a special teamer who can play WR, we're trading that pick for a WR who can play special teams...meaning that the most important part of his skill-set is not special teams or what he can do as a HB, it's what he can do as a WR.
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The LBC wrote:
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But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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STLRamsFan99


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harvin is great but I'd rather stick with cost controlled players when possible until the cap starts to rise again. For that reason I'd prefer Patterson or Austin over Harvin, especially at skill positions where players make big money.

I have to agree with jrry, Harvin will be expecting a payday soon.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
And J.R.S., I think you're missing the point, we're not trading a first round pick for a special teamer who can play WR, we're trading that pick for a WR who can play special teams...meaning that the most important part of his skill-set is not special teams or what he can do as a HB, it's what he can do as a WR.


I've been baited into a argument that I never made. I've never said we should trade a 1st round pick for him.

There may not be a WR in the entire NFL that is better at gaining yards after the catch than Percy Harvin. He can line up anywhere, including on the outside, as he has done so frequently throughout his career. He's a matchup nightmare no matter where he lines up, including the backfield.

If you have no interest in using him in the run game, then you are lacking in creativity. Sure, every NFL team has a WR who can kind of run the ball, but the reason they don't do it often is because they don't have a player like Harvin. They have someone like, Antonio Brown.

I'm never going to concede this point. I'll agree that the performance of an entire offensive line is more important than the play of a single WR, but to say 1/5 of that line is more important is ignorant, IMO. Warmack could do his job every single snap, and our blocking could still be subpar. That's the real reason guards are not that important. Do you think it is just coincidence that they are never drafted very highly?

Also, quit saying we already have a slot receiver. Amendola is no longer under contract. I wonder what the difference would be between their salaries? Considering Harvin provides a deep threat that Amendola does not, as well as his explosive return skills, that would be an automatic upgrade.

Warmack looks like the most sure bet pro-bowler in this draft, and I would love to have him in Blue and Gold. Truth be told, we could conceivably land both Warmack and Harvin.

The real question is how much more would you be willing to pay to replace Amendola with Harvin? Danny's getting paid this offseason too, you know.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:


I've been baited into a argument that I never made. I've never said we should trade a 1st round pick for him.


You've been arguing for him over Warmack. Warmack is a 1st round pick.

Quote:
There may not be a WR in the entire NFL that is better at gaining yards after the catch than Percy Harvin. He can line up anywhere, including on the outside, as he has done so frequently throughout his career. He's a matchup nightmare no matter where he lines up, including the backfield.


Tavon Austin...he is. That guy runs like Barry Sanders.

Quote:
If you have no interest in using him in the run game, then you are lacking in creativity. Sure, every NFL team has a WR who can kind of run the ball, but the reason they don't do it often is because they don't have a player like Harvin. They have someone like, Antonio Brown.


Disagree. If we wanted to put Chris Givens at HB, we could. Every team has a guy like that. They choose not to play them there because they have HBs for that very reason.

Quote:
I'm never going to concede this point. I'll agree that the performance of an entire offensive line is more important than the play of a single WR, but to say 1/5 of that line is more important is ignorant, IMO. Warmack could do his job every single snap, and our blocking could still be subpar. That's the real reason guards are not that important. Do you think it is just coincidence that they are never drafted very highly?


Harvin can do his job and our passing game can be subpar. Look at Minnesota's passing game. It's an extremely weak point.

I had to lol at the last argument. You really want to use draft position in an argument of guards vs. slot WRs? Percy Harvin was the 22nd pick in the draft. Do you think Warmack or Cooper will go higher?

Quote:
Also, quit saying we already have a slot receiver. Amendola is no longer under contract. I wonder what the difference would be between their salaries? Considering Harvin provides a deep threat that Amendola does not, as well as his explosive return skills, that would be an automatic upgrade.


Harvin isn't a deep threat at all. He isn't a deep ball WR despite his speed. He's faster than Danny but Danny caught 3 more deep passes this year than Harvin did. And that's not counting the 80+ yarder against SF.

Now, I'd still take Harvin on a deep route over Amendola but Harvin is not a deep threat.

Quote:
Warmack looks like the most sure bet pro-bowler in this draft, and I would love to have him in Blue and Gold. Truth be told, we could conceivably land both Warmack and Harvin.


Possibly but it begs the question...Harvin or Tavon Austin? I think I'd take Austin.

Quote:
The real question is how much more would you be willing to pay to replace Amendola with Harvin? Danny's getting paid this offseason too, you know.


I doubt it. Davone Bess who is a similar player to Danny and has put up similar numbers got 4 years 9 million a couple years ago. I doubt Danny's going to get big money. He'll probably get something like 4 years 16 million at most considering his injury history and that he's limited to the slot.

And that might end up being a stretch.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:


I've been baited into a argument that I never made. I've never said we should trade a 1st round pick for him.


You've been arguing for him over Warmack. Warmack is a 1st round pick.

Quote:
There may not be a WR in the entire NFL that is better at gaining yards after the catch than Percy Harvin. He can line up anywhere, including on the outside, as he has done so frequently throughout his career. He's a matchup nightmare no matter where he lines up, including the backfield.


Tavon Austin...he is. That guy runs like Barry Sanders.

Quote:
If you have no interest in using him in the run game, then you are lacking in creativity. Sure, every NFL team has a WR who can kind of run the ball, but the reason they don't do it often is because they don't have a player like Harvin. They have someone like, Antonio Brown.


Disagree. If we wanted to put Chris Givens at HB, we could. Every team has a guy like that. They choose not to play them there because they have HBs for that very reason.

Quote:
I'm never going to concede this point. I'll agree that the performance of an entire offensive line is more important than the play of a single WR, but to say 1/5 of that line is more important is ignorant, IMO. Warmack could do his job every single snap, and our blocking could still be subpar. That's the real reason guards are not that important. Do you think it is just coincidence that they are never drafted very highly?


Harvin can do his job and our passing game can be subpar. Look at Minnesota's passing game. It's an extremely weak point.

I had to lol at the last argument. You really want to use draft position in an argument of guards vs. slot WRs? Percy Harvin was the 22nd pick in the draft. Do you think Warmack or Cooper will go higher?

Quote:
Also, quit saying we already have a slot receiver. Amendola is no longer under contract. I wonder what the difference would be between their salaries? Considering Harvin provides a deep threat that Amendola does not, as well as his explosive return skills, that would be an automatic upgrade.


Harvin isn't a deep threat at all. He isn't a deep ball WR despite his speed. He's faster than Danny but Danny caught 3 more deep passes this year than Harvin did. And that's not counting the 80+ yarder against SF.

Now, I'd still take Harvin on a deep route over Amendola but Harvin is not a deep threat.

Quote:
Warmack looks like the most sure bet pro-bowler in this draft, and I would love to have him in Blue and Gold. Truth be told, we could conceivably land both Warmack and Harvin.


Possibly but it begs the question...Harvin or Tavon Austin? I think I'd take Austin.

Quote:
The real question is how much more would you be willing to pay to replace Amendola with Harvin? Danny's getting paid this offseason too, you know.


I doubt it. Davone Bess who is a similar player to Danny and has put up similar numbers got 4 years 9 million a couple years ago. I doubt Danny's going to get big money. He'll probably get something like 4 years 16 million at most considering his injury history and that he's limited to the slot.

And that might end up being a stretch.


I don't think Warmack should be our pick at #18 (Maybe with Washington's pick), and would gladly trade away the rights to him for Percy Harvin. Those that disagree will cite all the questions surrounding Percy (attitude, injuries) but will immediately dismiss the biggest question of all which surrounds Warmack; Can he play in the NFL.

He's a great prospect, but so was Aaron Curry, so please don't pretend that he should be considered automatic.

Minnesota's passing game is struggling because their QB is garbage. Let's not forget, Harvin only played in 8 full games as well.

You say that teams don't use WRs in the running game because they "have running backs for exactly that purpose." The fact that the Vikings have Adrian Peterson and still find value in giving a few carries to Harvin speaks volumes to his ability as a ball carrier. Not to mention, we are far from having an A.P. type of RB. Wouldn't that make Percy's contribution to the run game more important?

You didn't really argue with my point that Harvin is a superior deep threat to Amendola, so I guess we can leave that one be.

If you think Danny will fetch somewhere around 4 years, 16 million, what do you think a theoretical Harvin extension would cost? Remember, season ending IR in 2012.

I love Austin, and am intrigued by the idea of him being a Ram, but where do you take him? Are you proposing Warmack/Austin in the first. I'd be okay with that assuming Amendola is not re-signed. But to expect Austin to have similar success as Percy has had is being optimistic.

I think this whole thing comes down to one simple fact; I value Percy Harvin incredibly highly, apparently more so than some of you.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:


I don't think Warmack should be our pick at #18 (Maybe with Washington's pick), and would gladly trade away the rights to him for Percy Harvin. Those that disagree will cite all the questions surrounding Percy (attitude, injuries) but will immediately dismiss the biggest question of all which surrounds Warmack; Can he play in the NFL.

He's a great prospect, but so was Aaron Curry, so please don't pretend that he should be considered automatic.


Well, by this logic, why aren't teams just trading away all their picks for established players? Why take the risk?

And that's why we're arguing...your willingness to trade a first for Harvin.

Quote:
Minnesota's passing game is struggling because their QB is garbage. Let's not forget, Harvin only played in 8 full games as well.


So lets me get this straight, your argument was that it didn't matter how well Warmack did if the blockers around him stink, the blocking will be garbage. And then you respond that it's not Harvin, it's Ponder that's the reason why the Minnesota passing game is garbage. Can you seriously not see the connection and the point that was being made? The two statements mirror each other. IT'S A TEAM SPORT.

Quote:
You say that teams don't use WRs in the running game because they "have running backs for exactly that purpose." The fact that the Vikings have Adrian Peterson and still find value in giving a few carries to Harvin speaks volumes to his ability as a ball carrier. Not to mention, we are far from having an A.P. type of RB. Wouldn't that make Percy's contribution to the run game more important?


Which is exactly why it's a bad idea. Taking Adrian Peterson out of the game for Percy Harvin? That's a dumb move.

Austin can do the same thing though. The thing is if we're giving Austin or Harvin 50+ carries, there's some sort of issue. Not to say Harvin or Austin isn't talented and their ability as a runner shouldn't be considered but it's such a minor thing that it's really not what you're making of it. It's like considering if a WR can throw the football on a possible trick play.

Quote:
You didn't really argue with my point that Harvin is a superior deep threat to Amendola, so I guess we can leave that one be.


Nope, I didn't. I did argue your point that Harvin is a deep threat though...which he's not.

Quote:
If you think Danny will fetch somewhere around 4 years, 16 million, what do you think a theoretical Harvin extension would cost? Remember, season ending IR in 2012.


More. Just like Welker will cost significantly more. Harvin's ego won't allow him to agree to a cheap deal.

Quote:
I love Austin, and am intrigued by the idea of him being a Ram, but where do you take him? Are you proposing Warmack/Austin in the first. I'd be okay with that assuming Amendola is not re-signed. But to expect Austin to have similar success as Percy has had is being optimistic.


Expecting more would be optimistic. Expecting similar success wouldn't be asking that much. But I'm very optimistic that he'll do more in his first 4 years than Harvin has thus far.

Quote:
I think this whole thing comes down to one simple fact; I value Percy Harvin incredibly highly, apparently more so than some of you.


I don't. I value OL play highly and I value Chance Warmack highly. I value what Harvin brings but I recognize the issues he has on and off the field. And I don't value him anywhere near Warmack.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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holt_bruce81


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How overrated is Jonathon Cooper becoming in recent weeks? I keep seeing him as a top 25 pick, and for a Guard that has trouble playing at 300 pounds and isn't overpowering, I just keep seeing Jacob Bell.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:


I don't think Warmack should be our pick at #18 (Maybe with Washington's pick), and would gladly trade away the rights to him for Percy Harvin. Those that disagree will cite all the questions surrounding Percy (attitude, injuries) but will immediately dismiss the biggest question of all which surrounds Warmack; Can he play in the NFL.

He's a great prospect, but so was Aaron Curry, so please don't pretend that he should be considered automatic.


Well, by this logic, why aren't teams just trading away all their picks for established players? Why take the risk?

And that's why we're arguing...your willingness to trade a first for Harvin.

Quote:
Minnesota's passing game is struggling because their QB is garbage. Let's not forget, Harvin only played in 8 full games as well.


So lets me get this straight, your argument was that it didn't matter how well Warmack did if the blockers around him stink, the blocking will be garbage. And then you respond that it's not Harvin, it's Ponder that's the reason why the Minnesota passing game is garbage. Can you seriously not see the connection and the point that was being made? The two statements mirror each other. IT'S A TEAM SPORT.

Quote:
You say that teams don't use WRs in the running game because they "have running backs for exactly that purpose." The fact that the Vikings have Adrian Peterson and still find value in giving a few carries to Harvin speaks volumes to his ability as a ball carrier. Not to mention, we are far from having an A.P. type of RB. Wouldn't that make Percy's contribution to the run game more important?


Which is exactly why it's a bad idea. Taking Adrian Peterson out of the game for Percy Harvin? That's a dumb move.

Austin can do the same thing though. The thing is if we're giving Austin or Harvin 50+ carries, there's some sort of issue. Not to say Harvin or Austin isn't talented and their ability as a runner shouldn't be considered but it's such a minor thing that it's really not what you're making of it. It's like considering if a WR can throw the football on a possible trick play.

Quote:
You didn't really argue with my point that Harvin is a superior deep threat to Amendola, so I guess we can leave that one be.


Nope, I didn't. I did argue your point that Harvin is a deep threat though...which he's not.

Quote:
If you think Danny will fetch somewhere around 4 years, 16 million, what do you think a theoretical Harvin extension would cost? Remember, season ending IR in 2012.


More. Just like Welker will cost significantly more. Harvin's ego won't allow him to agree to a cheap deal.

Quote:
I love Austin, and am intrigued by the idea of him being a Ram, but where do you take him? Are you proposing Warmack/Austin in the first. I'd be okay with that assuming Amendola is not re-signed. But to expect Austin to have similar success as Percy has had is being optimistic.


Expecting more would be optimistic. Expecting similar success wouldn't be asking that much. But I'm very optimistic that he'll do more in his first 4 years than Harvin has thus far.

Quote:
I think this whole thing comes down to one simple fact; I value Percy Harvin incredibly highly, apparently more so than some of you.


I don't. I value OL play highly and I value Chance Warmack highly. I value what Harvin brings but I recognize the issues he has on and off the field. And I don't value him anywhere near Warmack.


We're simply not going to agree on this. Percy Harvin would immediately solve 2 of our biggest offensive needs; A red zone threat that is an electric kick returner. Minnesota used him 16 times in the red zone this year, compared to 25 for Adrian Peterson (In the games in which they were both active).

Earlier, you brought up the number of touches he should be expecting per game. In an offense that leans heavily on Adrian Peterson and the run game, Harvin averaged 10 touches per game. That's absolutely unreal, and that number doesn't even include his kick returns.

I value line play also, I just think an adequate guard is a relatively easy thing to acquire. While I would give up a 1st round pick for Harvin, that argument is worthless, because he would cost less than that.

My next mock draft, which I am making now, will include Harvin in it. Perhaps we should take our conversation there so we don't continue to clog up this thread...
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holt_bruce81


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Rams take Warmack at #16 and then all the top Tackles are gone by their next pick in the first, What route do you want them to go? Best Receiver on the board? Best player regardless of position?
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DEE RAWL


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holt_bruce81 wrote:
If the Rams take Warmack at #16 and then all the top Tackles are gone by their next pick in the first, What route do you want them to go? Best Receiver on the board? Best player regardless of position?


Yes which in that case would most likely be Terrence Williams.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:


We're simply not going to agree on this. Percy Harvin would immediately solve 2 of our biggest offensive needs; A red zone threat that is an electric kick returner. Minnesota used him 16 times in the red zone this year, compared to 25 for Adrian Peterson (In the games in which they were both active).


Minnesota is ridiculously stupid. And Harvin would not solve our red-zone threat need at WR.

Quote:
Earlier, you brought up the number of touches he should be expecting per game. In an offense that leans heavily on Adrian Peterson and the run game, Harvin averaged 10 touches per game. That's absolutely unreal, and that number doesn't even include his kick returns.


What did he do with those touches? Not near enough. Even considering 10 touches per game, how many offensive plays per game are there?

Quote:
I value line play also, I just think an adequate guard is a relatively easy thing to acquire. While I would give up a 1st round pick for Harvin, that argument is worthless, because he would cost less than that.


I think an adequate slot WR is VERY easy to acquire. I think we already have a very good slot WR. Do we have a very good LG?

Quote:
My next mock draft, which I am making now, will include Harvin in it. Perhaps we should take our conversation there so we don't continue to clog up this thread...


I'll go ahead and do that when it's up.
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Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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stlblackshirt


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=CFB&id=131282&line=22771&spln=1

So Jake Matthews is staying in school. One less OT possibility.

Meanwhile, I'm really starting to like Matt Elam. Just knocked off a Louisville player's helmet.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stlblackshirt wrote:
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=CFB&id=131282&line=22771&spln=1

So Jake Matthews is staying in school. One less OT possibility.

Meanwhile, I'm really starting to like Matt Elam. Just knocked off a Louisville player's helmet.


I'm not liking him at all in this game. I think it's one of his weaker games. He's showing terrible tackling form and I haven't noticed him around the ball as much as you'd expect him to be.
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Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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DEE RAWL


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
stlblackshirt wrote:
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=CFB&id=131282&line=22771&spln=1

So Jake Matthews is staying in school. One less OT possibility.

Meanwhile, I'm really starting to like Matt Elam. Just knocked off a Louisville player's helmet.


I'm not liking him at all in this game. I think it's one of his weaker games. He's showing terrible tackling form and I haven't noticed him around the ball as much as you'd expect him to be.


Agreed, i never cared how well or not well he did against the run because we need coverage safeties which Elam is not.
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