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Red Zone Issues - Not on Reid or Vick
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McNabb2Maclin


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Red Zone Issues - Not on Reid or Vick Reply with quote

Ima preface this by saying I want Reid and Vick gone and a new start as much as any of y'all. However, the struggles we have had in the Red Zone are not on them.

I've seen a lot of people blaming the Red Zone struggles on Reid's playcalling or Vick's deficiencies, but IMO, that is simply not the case. It's the personnel.

We, even when healthy, did not have a mauling offensive line that could be counted on to actually generate push on traditional running plays. Our receiving options are subpar at best. Desean, while playing at a whole new level this season, is simply not a respectable threat in the Red Zone. He isn't going to beat a CB in press coverage, hes not going to out-physical a CB on a slant, hes not gonna be able to shield the CB on his back in the middle of the field. Maclin suffers from the same problems, but he lacks even the quickness and athletic ability that Desean atleast offers. Last nights play following the fumble recovery on ST is a perfect example. Vick made a decent throw to get the ball over the linebacker, and Maclin showcases his 5 inch vertical and fails to bring in the ball. Thats a play that noone on our roster is capable of making, but pretty much any #1 or #2 receiver makes. Celek is a solid player but he isnt gonna create any separation in tight spaces unless the play design does it for him, which is much more difficult to do in the red zone.

Looking at the top 10 teams in the league in Red Zone efficiency (TD Percentage) this year:

1) New Orleans : Jimmy Graham, Marques Colston
2) Denver : Demaryous Thomas, Eric Decker
3) Green Bay : Jordy Nelson, James Jones, Jermichael Finley (he's a bit iffy)
4) Tampa Bay : Vincent Jackson, Mike Williams
5) New England : Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez
6) Baltimore : a bit of an exception, but they have a great O-Line and running game
7) San Francisco : Vernon Davis, best OLine in the game bar none
Cool Detroit : Calvin Johnson, Brandon Pettigrew, Tony Sheffler
9) Carolina : Cam Newton, Greg Olsen, mostly just Cam Newton
10) Houston : Amazing running game, Andre Johnson

Looking at that list, we dont have a single receiving threat on our team on the same level as Jimmy Graham, Marques Colston, Demaryous Thomas, Eric Decker, Jordy Nelson, James Jones, Jermichael Finley, Vincent Jackson, Mike Williams, Gronk, hernandez, Vernon Davis, Calvin Johnson, or Andre Johnson in general NOR in terms of redzone production/ability.

The only teams that don't have one of the listed names above are Baltimore and Carolina. Baltimore has got a great O-Line, and Carolina has got Cam Newton, who despite his passing troubles this year, is on a different level than the rest of the planet in terms of short yardage runs. Even they have Greg Olson who is a better redzone threat than anyone on our roster.

Basically, dont expect our redzone troubles to get any better this year, or if Reid is fired, or if the playcalling changes, or if Vick is benched in favor of Foles because the issue stems from an inherent lack of talent on the offensive side.
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reid drafts and decides what schemes are run at least offensively, therefore he is responsible.
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Blahman88


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's on Reid, scheme, drafting and the like
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maclin had 7 redzone TDs a few years ago.
It's execution, IMO.
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Blahman88


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should have drafted Virgil Green
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And by the way, we lost 4 of 5 projected starters at the line. If we had our full line including Peter this year we'd be able to punch it in behind him this year.

This team is never healthy at O-line and has plagued us for a long time.
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Bednarik60


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Maclin had 7 redzone TDs a few years ago.
It's execution, IMO.


LOL your kidding right? he had a lot of luck scooop out low thrown balls and some lucky bad corner play and in many ways was a product of a undiagnosed offense by defense coordinators and Vick being such a wild car bro.


Dude come on now look at the game. Every really good offense has a combo of tall long and buff at wide receiver specially in there redzone packages. Hell when was the last time a team was super dominant and went on to win a championship with littler wide receivers and tight ends? Trying to think i guess the 2003 Pats were not very big but no one ever gives Corey Dillion credit for riding them to the big show but whatever. Point is its a big fast league and there is only so much room to get open so teams are using size/athletic mismatches to create room to get open in.

you cant really run away from any one as almost every team has some super fast guys so you have to uncover your self with body-control/muscle/ hops/length/strong-hands...

If you are not very big or a electric jump ball guy you better be tough and mean as hell with some cocky out of this world attitude to go get that ball some how some one. None of our guys have that.

Notice how none of our wide receiver rarelyever lay out for the ball or ever really go get the ball at its highest point. They dont want it that bad. they wont fight for anything. Maclin is catch on the run guy that cant break tackles or out juke any one and has no physicality to his game.

We have no physical imposing offensive players at all now that Peters is out of line up. We need a physical wide receiver who can catch the ball with guys on him and get us those big chunk plays down the field. Or ran that slant route on the back end in the red zone and not be scared and strong enough to go grab the ball and take a hit and hold on. It would change the entire make up of this franchise. If we are going to throw so much you need this guy sooooooo bad. You got to find him.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bednarik60 wrote:
Phire wrote:
Maclin had 7 redzone TDs a few years ago.
It's execution, IMO.


LOL your kidding right? he had a lot of luck scooop out low thrown balls and some lucky bad corner play and in many ways was a product of a undiagnosed offense by defense coordinators and Vick being such a wild car bro.


Dude come on now look at the game. Every really good offense has a combo of tall long and buff at wide receiver specially in there redzone packages. Hell when was the last time a team was super dominant and went on to win a championship with littler wide receivers and tight ends? Trying to think i guess the 2003 Pats were not very big but no one ever gives Corey Dillion credit for riding them to the big show but whatever. Point is its a big fast league and there is only so much room to get open so teams are using size/athletic mismatches to create room to get open in.

you cant really run away from any one as almost every team has some super fast guys so you have to uncover your self with body-control/muscle/ hops/length/strong-hands...

If you are not very big or a electric jump ball guy you better be tough and mean as hell with some cocky out of this world attitude to go get that ball some how some one. None of our guys have that.

Notice how none of our wide receiver rarelyever lay out for the ball or ever really go get the ball at its highest point. They dont want it that bad. they wont fight for anything. Maclin is catch on the run guy that cant break tackles or out juke any one and has no physicality to his game.

We have no physical imposing offensive players at all now that Peters is out of line up. We need a physical wide receiver who can catch the ball with guys on him and get us those big chunk plays down the field. Or ran that slant route on the back end in the red zone and not be scared and strong enough to go grab the ball and take a hit and hold on. It would change the entire make up of this franchise. If we are going to throw so much you need this guy sooooooo bad. You got to find him.


I don't disagree, but without fantasizing about that big target we've been calling for forever, we aren't executing.

We have the best running back in the NFL, it shouldn't matter if we don't have a big target receiver, Shady should be our #1 redzone threat.

We aren't using him enough in that area, and when we do, we don't execute.

We've scored in the redzone using Celek and Harbor. Celek needs to catch the balls thrown to him, or the passes need to get better.

The plays are there, the team isn't executing. But you are absolutely correct in saying we need a big target. I'm just saying, we've gotten it done before when we were able to execute without one.
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Jroc04


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I caught a very brief exchange on the radio with Ike and Mike on WIP and they eluded to Roseman being responsible for the 2010-2011 draft. I don't know what kind of water that holds but I found it very interesting.

And they noted that Howie signed a 3 or 4 year extension at the beginning to this year. Which would make it difficult for us to land a big name head coach, if in fact Reid gets canned. Being so that a head coach of that substantiality (Cower, Gruden, Payton) would all but NEED to be in agreeance on who would be the GM. If our GM is in place for 4 years it may limit our choices to college coaches or secondary coordinators in the NFL.

Something to think about.
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without checking myself, if you looked at the top TD producers in the red zone, I'd be willing to bet the list is dominated by RBs and TEs. The Eagles have Shady, Celek, Havili, and Brown. It's a combination of playcalling and execution.
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sunnygsm


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad redzone personnel even worse play calling.
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I agree with some of your points it comes down to play calling and execution in the end. Do neither well and any team would struggle. You have a RB who had 17 rushing TD last season and you call 2 pass play out of 3 from the 4 YD line? Despite gashing a team for 140+ at that time. You have a QB with the mobility to run boots and draws at will if blocked correctly and has himself rushed for 9 TD in a season. When your OC would rather call gimmick plays numerous times inside the 5 then Run the ball there is a fundamental flaw in his thinking. Say what you will about Colston and Grahams abilities (love to have them) but look at both TD last night. Niether were that special but well executed and block pass plays that almost any team can do if done correctly. Yes having a beast like those you described would help as would 4 of the future HOF QB'S you have listed in the top 5. However put any of them under as much duress as Vick was under last night and if people were honest all season , have the same play calling I doubt things go any different, seriously.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This team has had redzone TD scoring problems since the days of McNabb. It's a result of the small finesse players and the predictable finesse playcalling. You have to go over the top of and through people to be at your best in the redzone. You can't score TDs at a top rate by consistently attempting to go around people to score TDs in the redzone.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Execution and playcalling. But we should go for a physical WR in the draft.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-redzone-videos/09000d5d81bf1897/One-Sunday-57-touchdowns

Every week 9 touchdown.

Barely any team in the NFL "just throws it up to the big, tall guy".

Teams score in the redzone by

a) running back punches it in
b) timing and precision on routes
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