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Red Zone Issues - Not on Reid or Vick
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McNabb2Maclin


Joined: 16 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Obviously I can't say this for sure, but there is no reason not to believe that the CB wasnt just outside the picture. By the time ANY QB turns around 180 degrees to the complete opposite side of the field from the play design, the CB is ready to load up and make the tackle on Maclin for a 2 or 3 yard loss.

Like B60 said, no way is Desean's matchup in the slot a clear advantage to immediately check out of designed play.

In the end, the ball hit Celek in the hands. It wasnt a perfect throw, no. But its a catch that I expect a starting TE to make. And ANY of the guys I listed in the OP would have made it.
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McNabb2Maclin


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McNabb2Maclin wrote:
Phire wrote:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-redzone-videos/09000d5d81bf1897/One-Sunday-57-touchdowns

Every week 9 touchdown.

Barely any team in the NFL "just throws it up to the big, tall guy".

Teams score in the redzone by

a) running back punches it in
b) timing and precision on routes


I can't watch the video right now, but I'm pretty confident that most of the running backs punching it in were on power running plays behind strong O-Line push. We simply can't do that. Most of our running success both this year AND last year (when the O-Line was still healthy) were on finesse running plays like misdirections, draws. We do not and did not have the ability to hand the rock to McCoy and have him push it in the RZ from the 3 yard line. That's what necessitates the play-calling that we've seen, like that shovel pass that you guys all hated. Our best chance in getting McCoy into the red zone is to decrease the work that the OLine has to do.

Also, saying "throwing it up to the big, tall guy" is grossly oversimplifying the value of having a guy like Vincent Jackson or Jimmy Graham in the Red Zone. Throwing timing routes is a hell of a lot easier to a guy who can beat the press off the line immediately, or be so effective at it that CB's dont even attempt to jam them at the line. They're a hell of alot easier when the WR/TE can shield the defender off with his big frame in the middle of the field. They're a hell of a lot easier when the ball doesnt have to be put right on the receiving targets numbers for it to be a completion. Are you comfortable with Vick zipping a ball 3-4 feet above Maclin or Celek's head for them to go up and snatch it. Chances are, with them, its a tipped pass interception.

Also, Celek isn't really a viable threat. In reality, hes an incredibly average TE. He's not going to create separation, and he isn't separation himself. Some guys just ARE separation. There doesnt need to be any space between them and their defenders for the QB to know that theyre gonna come down with the ball. Someone like Kyle Rudolph comes to mind, you put the ball where he can get a hand on it, chances are hes gonna come down with it. If you put the ball in his vicinity, chances are hes not gonna let the defender beat him to it.

I know the playcalling sucks, but I feel like Reid is FORCED to call these finesse plays because of the personnel.


Paged, kinda.
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Eagles_808


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McNabb2Maclin wrote:
^Obviously I can't say this for sure, but there is no reason not to believe that the CB wasnt just outside the picture. By the time ANY QB turns around 180 degrees to the complete opposite side of the field from the play design, the CB is ready to load up and make the tackle on Maclin for a 2 or 3 yard loss.

Like B60 said, no way is Desean's matchup in the slot a clear advantage to immediately check out of designed play.


I know we're just crying over spilled milk here, but even if the CB stepped up and was "just out of the picture," that's still a 3-4 yard cushion for Maclin, and a 1-on-1 that could be beaten IMO.

And in no way was I suggesting passing to DeSean there, his route was more of a decoy to take the inside defenders with him. And as for Vick having to do a 180 if he threw to the right, maybe he should have looked at Maclin before the snap to see the huge cushion he had, so he could have just tossed it right to him.
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McNabb2Maclin


Joined: 16 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagles_808 wrote:
McNabb2Maclin wrote:
^Obviously I can't say this for sure, but there is no reason not to believe that the CB wasnt just outside the picture. By the time ANY QB turns around 180 degrees to the complete opposite side of the field from the play design, the CB is ready to load up and make the tackle on Maclin for a 2 or 3 yard loss.

Like B60 said, no way is Desean's matchup in the slot a clear advantage to immediately check out of designed play.


I know we're just crying over spilled milk here, but even if the CB stepped up and was "just out of the picture," that's still a 3-4 yard cushion for Maclin, and a 1-on-1 that could be beaten IMO.

And in no way was I suggesting passing to DeSean there, his route was more of a decoy to take the inside defenders with him. And as for Vick having to do a 180 if he threw to the right, maybe he should have looked at Maclin before the snap to see the huge cushion he had, so he could have just tossed it right to him.


That's true. I would have liked to see that. I also don't think, however, and I think you'll agree with me, that Maclin is the kind of receiver that you see making plays in those kinds of 1 on 1 open field situations. But yeah, I agree, that would have been a good play.

I still struggle to blame Vick for the INT when the ball did hit Celek in his hand.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McNabb2Maclin wrote:
Phire wrote:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-redzone-videos/09000d5d81bf1897/One-Sunday-57-touchdowns

Every week 9 touchdown.

Barely any team in the NFL "just throws it up to the big, tall guy".

Teams score in the redzone by

a) running back punches it in
b) timing and precision on routes


I can't watch the video right now, but I'm pretty confident that most of the running backs punching it in were on power running plays behind strong O-Line push. We simply can't do that. Most of our running success both this year AND last year (when the O-Line was still healthy) were on finesse running plays like misdirections, draws. We do not and did not have the ability to hand the rock to McCoy and have him push it in the RZ from the 3 yard line. That's what necessitates the play-calling that we've seen, like that shovel pass that you guys all hated. Our best chance in getting McCoy into the red zone is to decrease the work that the OLine has to do.


I think you are confusing contexts here. The thread is about our red-zone blues. The conversation is about how to fix it.

If we're going to fantasize about the "big, strong target", then why can't I fantasize about the "punch it in running game."

I understand the offense is the way it is out of necessity. We don't have the parts. The same way we can't run the plays some teams can with their dominant receivers, we can't execute the same type of run plays that power running teams can.

My argument is that most teams score with their running back. Therefore, as a personal preference, I would rather see our team pursue a power run game that can punch-it-in when it's 1st and goal rather than getting the "big target" and trying to force it to him.

If we are to discuss our current team, I would still want to see 3 plays going to McCoy rather than watching Vick throw it.

a) the passing game as a whole isn't working
b) McCoy can make something out of nothing

McCoy just needs to make that first guy miss. He can do that. Therefore, he should get the ball at least 66% of the time in the red-zone. Which begs the question:

Are we, as a team, currently better as a passing team in the red-zone or a running team?

Well, for one, we have one of the best young running backs in the league. If my vote counts, it's going to be with Shady McCoy every time.

Quote:
Also, saying "throwing it up to the big, tall guy" is grossly oversimplifying the value of having a guy like Vincent Jackson or Jimmy Graham in the Red Zone. Throwing timing routes is a hell of a lot easier to a guy who can beat the press off the line immediately, or be so effective at it that CB's dont even attempt to jam them at the line. They're a hell of alot easier when the WR/TE can shield the defender off with his big frame in the middle of the field. They're a hell of a lot easier when the ball doesnt have to be put right on the receiving targets numbers for it to be a completion. Are you comfortable with Vick zipping a ball 3-4 feet above Maclin or Celek's head for them to go up and snatch it. Chances are, with them, its a tipped pass interception.


I agree with your explanation and at no point held sentiments contradictory to it.

Where I do disagree is the insinuation that our guys are having a hard time getting open. How do you explain the many frames, week after week, that arise depicting guys who are--quite simply--wide open?

Even the evidence I've posted in this thread suggests Vick is simply unable to read defenses and still makes elementary mistakes.

[quote]Also, Celek isn't really a viable threat. In reality, hes an incredibly average TE. He's not going to create separation, and he isn't separation himself. Some guys just ARE separation. There doesnt need to be any space between them and their defenders for the QB to know that theyre gonna come down with the ball. Someone like Kyle Rudolph comes to mind, you put the ball where he can get a hand on it, chances are hes gonna come down with it. If you put the ball in his vicinity, chances are hes not gonna let the defender beat him to it.[/quot]

That's fair, Celek hasn't shown me anything in the red-zone.

Quote:
I know the playcalling sucks, but I feel like Reid is FORCED to call these finesse plays because of the personnel.


Which may be true, but that doesn't mean the playcall never works. Guys are open, plays are there, the only problem is that our line either can't make the right blocks or when they do, our quarterback shows us once again that he isn't really a quarterback.
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Eagles_808


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McNabb2Maclin wrote:
That's true. I would have liked to see that. I also don't think, however, and I think you'll agree with me, that Maclin is the kind of receiver that you see making plays in those kinds of 1 on 1 open field situations. But yeah, I agree, that would have been a good play.


Do you remember the Miracle at the New Meadowlands? The score that tied it up was a quick pass to Maclin who beat a CB one on one for the red zone TD. He is capable of that IMO. But we rarely give it a try, so who knows.



Quote:
I still struggle to blame Vick for the INT when the ball did hit Celek in his hand.


You do recall that the pass was high, and Celek only got a portion of one hand on it, right? Please don't act like it was placed perfectly into both hands and he dropped it. The pass was too high and step in front of Celek.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McNabb2Maclin wrote:
^Obviously I can't say this for sure, but there is no reason not to believe that the CB wasnt just outside the picture. By the time ANY QB turns around 180 degrees to the complete opposite side of the field from the play design, the CB is ready to load up and make the tackle on Maclin for a 2 or 3 yard loss.

Like B60 said, no way is Desean's matchup in the slot a clear advantage to immediately check out of designed play.

In the end, the ball hit Celek in the hands. It wasnt a perfect throw, no. But its a catch that I expect a starting TE to make. And ANY of the guys I listed in the OP would have made it.


Desean has the advantage because of the route he is running.
He is running a post, and it's 1 v 1. It's an advantage as long as Jackson isn't running on all fours.

It hit Celek in the hand (singular) but it was a terrible throw. Celek was the ONE GUY on that play who was basically double covered (thanks to Vick staring down Celek inviting Robinson).

Celek was also the ONE GUY who was jammed and had his route disrupted.

Vick held onto the ball, threw off his back foot, and stared down his receiver.

An NFL defense, even the worst one in history, won't be beaten by that.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That pass to Celek was horrible.

The whole play was a disaster.

I don't care where the defender was in relation to Maclin. Vick knew he was running a screen and the defender was already lined up with a 5 yard cushion.

Vick throws the cruddiest ball in history and throws a 99 yard touchdown to the opposing team and people are defending him by claiming "Well, Maclin might not have beaten him."

Vick sympathies.
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McNabb2Maclin


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagles_808 wrote:
McNabb2Maclin wrote:
That's true. I would have liked to see that. I also don't think, however, and I think you'll agree with me, that Maclin is the kind of receiver that you see making plays in those kinds of 1 on 1 open field situations. But yeah, I agree, that would have been a good play.


Do you remember the Miracle at the New Meadowlands? The score that tied it up was a quick pass to Maclin who beat a CB one on one for the red zone TD. He is capable of that IMO. But we rarely give it a try, so who knows.



Quote:
I still struggle to blame Vick for the INT when the ball did hit Celek in his hand.


You do recall that the pass was high, and Celek only got a portion of one hand on it, right? Please don't act like it was placed perfectly into both hands and he dropped it. The pass was too high and step in front of Celek.


It was a poor decision. It was a poor throw. Vick has been butt this year.

but It would have been a touchdown if that was Kyle Rudolph, Vernon Davis, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Kyle Rudolph, Tony Gonzalez, Jason Witten, Greg Olsen, or Antonio Gates.
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eaglesfan10


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give every Red Zone touch to Shady.

Problem solved.
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Eagles_808


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eaglesfan10 wrote:
Give every Red Zone touch to Shady.

Problem solved.


Qft

Only 1 carry in 8 goal to go attempts Monday? C'mon man.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagles_808 wrote:
Phire wrote:
There is NOBODY between Maclin and the endzone.


Quote:


That pic says it all. Look at Maclin looking for Vick to swing that screen pass his way. Seeing this is just so frustrating.


That's not a screen pass. Who's doing the screening? Laughing
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody is saying it's a screen play, you can call it a "screen pass" to describe the type of pass similar to one you would see on a WR screen. Quit being a troll.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Nobody is saying it's a screen play, you can call it a "screen pass" to describe the type of pass similar to one you would see on a WR screen. Quit being a troll.


The route has a name, learn it. This misnomered "screen pass" with no human being screening just is unacceptable when there is a well known name for that route.
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RandyMossIsBoss


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:
Nobody is saying it's a screen play, you can call it a "screen pass" to describe the type of pass similar to one you would see on a WR screen. Quit being a troll.


The route has a name, learn it. This misnomered "screen pass" with no human being screening just is unacceptable when there is a well known name for that route.


Luckily I know how to kill trolls... YAC! Look at it! Watch as D"No YAC"Jac picks up copious amounts of YAC.



Oh man, that's enough YAC to complete the NYC marathon right there.
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