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mike23md


Joined: 21 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I am missing Williams who is playing the deep zone.
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RSkinGM


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
Yeah, I am missing Williams who is playing the deep zone.


Guess they were making sure they didn't get burned deep like against the Giants--still didn't work !! Embarassed
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike and Marc lets talks FACTS

You guys are missing the big picture by trying to break down a play that is clear to see why the coverage didn't work. In a zone defense you have to communicate and everyone has to stay disciplined.

Marc is saying the scheme doesn't work and is explain why the play should have never been called based on a "what if factor". When in fact if Josh Wilson is playing he zone he should have broke into his zone as soon as Murphy made his move to a post route no matter if Williams was there or not. If Williams isn't there then the the pass being completed in his zone is his problem. And when tape is reviewed he will have to explain what he was doing. By Wilson covering for him and vacating his zone he left the whole defense out to dry. Which again is what London Fletcher spoke about, "guys trying to compensate for others instead of playing their assignment.

Now Mike a loop route is basically another term my coaches used for the delayed go route route my apologies I will keep it more conventional Wink.

Based on your analogy of the play you are saying its the safeties that blew it and I just don't see that. the SS should have had middle responsibility and played underneath the post route by Steve Smith with Williams being over the top or he should have had the other flat depending on what Rileys responsibility was. In the picture you posted it clearly shows Josh Wilson in Williams zone area and his vacated area in which Edwards is streaking in. The FACT of the matter is Wilson vacated his zone and it laid to a 80yrd gain instead of a shorter one. Hass has more football knowledge than everyone in the post combined. If he has had time to break the film down and talk to the players and he says its on Wilson then its on Wilson. Its clear as day, no need to over think the situation by scenarios that "could've or should've happened"
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
Posts: 359
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brandon, I see your post & hope to respond later.

Classic stuff mike23md, I love it! Stretches out everybody's text, but it all provides a very clear picture! Now, as even that last frame (1 of 5) clearly proves, Josh Wilson is not out of his area of responsibility. To make a play on Edwards he's badly beaten, but everyone can see he's halfway between the yard maker & the hash mark! Further, we can see that he's attempting to break stride and reverse his field, but as you said he's way too late. The frame proves precisely my point that as Murphy is vacating his area of responsibility, in through the back door comes Edwards. Whether he knew he had Williams to the inside is irrelevant, what he isn't aware of is Edwards.

Bear in mind that Wilson never comes even remotely close to recovering on Edwards... That's important to remember when looking at the 4th frame. There he's attempting to close on Murphy's break when in reality he's already beaten by Edwards! May not seem it, looking at the still frame, but he is. Indeed, as Edwards is bolting to the sideline Wilson still has to come under control, reverse his field, get back up to speed & get out there to knock that thing off at 20yds. As I said before, I highly question whether he's still in the play at all by that point. Glaringly evident is that he's still very much in his area of responsibility.

The 3rd frame shows where Wilson is still in it. So, somewhere between the 3rd & the 4th frame, Wilson has to break off of Murphy and pick up Edwards. We can see in that 3rd frame he probably isn't aware that Edwards is breaking open. As is clearly proven, for Wilson to make a play on Edwards, he would've had to leave Murphy wide open. He was screwed no matter what he did. As footy_29 suggests, it can be argued that Madieu Williams would've made the stop had the ball gone to Murphy. However, Murphy is into his break at the 20yd line. You see him breaking stride & Williams arriving at about the 30yd line. To suggest that even Madieu Williams would've rocked that play is highly questionable! Personally, I believe the Panthers anticipated or recognized the coverage and ran a combination into Wilson's zone & they executed it very well. The run action was poor but everything else was excellent.

As for Haslett's coverage, I keep asking the same question and never getting any response. Who was responsible for the intermediate zone & who was responsible for the deep zone on that far side of the field? Fact is, there was only one defender over there, Josh Wilson. He apparently was responsible for both zones & for the most part, two rec'rs! All the while, the highly compensated De' Hall is rushing to shut down a 2yd rte run by the TE.... The scheme was easily exposed & the utilization of personnel, extremely poor.


Last edited by markrc99 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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footy_29


Joined: 31 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
As for Haslett's coverage, I keep asking the same question and never getting any response. Who was responsible for the intermediate zone & who was responsible for the deep zone on that on that far side of the field? Fact is, there was only one defender over there, Josh Wilson. He apparently was responsible for both zones & for the most part, two rec'rs! All the while, the highly compensated De' Hall is rushing to shut down a 2yd rte run by the TE.... The scheme was easily exposed & the utilization of personnel, extremely poor.


Doughty had intermediate zone on the left, and Addision intermediate on the right (he was not deep enough). Because there were two receivers and a tight end on the weak side, they also had a player (Hall) in the flat. That's a good play-call, Wilson just chased his man instead of having confidence in Robinson and Williams to cover short and deep in the middle.
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RSkinGM


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently they are too stupid to play zone..They need to go school yard.. You take that guy--I got this guy etc.. sheez!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Told ya its on the players.
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Told ya its on the players.


I kinda agree-- cept it seems to be more mental than physical..I know they don't have have the greatest skills in the league--but I just don't think they are as bad as they are playing.. I think I'll drop off of fire Haz and go w/ fire Morris --Somebody's gotta get fired !! Twisted Evil Laughing
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonb2005 wrote:

Marc is saying the scheme doesn't work and is explain why the play should have never been called based on a "what if factor". When in fact if Josh Wilson is playing he zone he should have broke into his zone as soon as Murphy made his move to a post route no matter if Williams was there or not. If Williams isn't there then the the pass being completed in his zone is his problem.

Okay, so you understand my premise now. It was not unexpected that you would avoid the problem with the coverage. It was known beforehand that Josh Wilson sucks, yet on this play he was responsible for both the intermediate & deep zones to that side & for the most part, both rec'rs who entered them! Who's idea was that?
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
As for Haslett's coverage, I keep asking the same question and never getting any response. Who was responsible for the intermediate zone & who was responsible for the deep zone on that on that far side of the field? Fact is, there was only one defender over there, Josh Wilson. He apparently was responsible for both zones & for the most part, two rec'rs! All the while, the highly compensated De' Hall is rushing to shut down a 2yd rte run by the TE.... The scheme was easily exposed & the utilization of personnel, extremely poor.


Doughty had intermediate zone on the left, and Addision intermediate on the right (he was not deep enough). Because there were two receivers and a tight end on the weak side, they also had a player (Hall) in the flat. That's a good play-call, Wilson just chased his man instead of having confidence in Robinson and Williams to cover short and deep in the middle.


Thank you footy! I thought I was the only one that seeing the play based on the arguments in this thread. I keep trying to explain to these guys that Wilson vacated his zone which left Edwards wide open for 80yrd catch and run. Marc is questioning the play call saying Wilson "would've" had to cover two guys regardless "if" Murphy "would've" ran a go route and Edward ran the same route then it "would've" been the same results Laughing .

From my point of view if Wilson was in his spot no matter what Murphy runs Wilson will still be in a position to make a play on the ball or the tackle. Instead he did neither and Griffin had to save the TD from the opposite side of the field.

I agree with Turtle, the coaches can only put you in a position to fail or succeed. If you execute the play and everyone takes care of their responsibility on a play and you still get burned then its the coaches fault for calling that play, I agree with that. But when you see guys in the same zones, and guys getting beat because of bad technique and playing undisciplined then its the players. But we simply can't afford to bench Josh Wilson or D.Hall or Williams because we have 0 depth in the secondary. All I can do is hope that Chase Minnifield and Bernstein can shock us all and actually be good players but the likelihood of that happening is very slim especially coming off major knee injuries.


Last edited by brandonb2005 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Doughty had intermediate zone on the left, and Addision intermediate on the right (he was not deep enough). Because there were two receivers and a tight end on the weak side, they also had a player (Hall) in the flat. That's a good play-call, Wilson just chased his man instead of having confidence in Robinson and Williams to cover short and deep in the middle.

Well, I was asking who was responsible for each zone on the weak side or the front side of the play, where the breakdown occurred. The only thing on the back side that's relevant is that Steve Smith also ran to the post & that may have gotten Williams to sit a bit before rolling toward the flood side. Okay, so you have Hall in the short zone. Who had the intermediate zone Edwards was working? Josh Wilson? Oh okay... then who had the deep zone behind him? See, you can blame Wilson for failing to cover half the planet but it was Haslett's idea to put him in that situation!

You have Williams about 8yds off Murphy's break? I think you should reconsider that point. Murphy would've been wide open if Wilson breaks off in time to make a play on Edwards.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonb2005 wrote:
Hass has more football knowledge than everyone in the post combined. If he has had time to break the film down and talk to the players and he says its on Wilson then its on Wilson. Its clear as day, no need to over think the situation by scenarios that "could've or should've happened"
umm yeah! He's been a DC or HC in the NFL for 14 of the last 15 years! Wink
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footy_29


Joined: 31 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Doughty had intermediate zone on the left, and Addision intermediate on the right (he was not deep enough). Because there were two receivers and a tight end on the weak side, they also had a player (Hall) in the flat. That's a good play-call, Wilson just chased his man instead of having confidence in Robinson and Williams to cover short and deep in the middle.

Well, I was asking who was responsible for each zone on the weak side or the front side of the play, where the breakdown occurred. The only thing on the back side that's relevant is that Steve Smith also ran to the post & that may have gotten Williams to sit a bit before rolling toward the flood side. Okay, so you have Hall in the short zone. Who had the intermediate zone Edwards was working? Josh Wilson? Oh okay... then who had the deep zone behind him? See, you can blame Wilson for failing to cover half the planet but it was Haslett's idea to put him in that situation!


Did you not read what you quoted? Addison has the intermediate zone, although he should have been 3-4 yards deeper to help narrow the window (held in by the play-action). If Wilson is in position, that is a much smaller window to throw the ball into even with Addison and Robinson hesitating at the onset. If Wilson is in position, Newton probably targets Steve Smith instead, and since we know making progressions is not a strength, a higher chance Cam is sacked.

Quote:
You have Williams about 8yds off Murphy's break? I think you should reconsider that point. Murphy would've been wide open if Wilson breaks off in time to make a play on Edwards.


I'll admit the angle is not great for me to make the claim, and I did not see it live but maybe 10-12 yards, but the point remains Williams is closing ground quickly and Murphy is running straight at him. That is a big collision waiting to happen, and few receivers hang onto those.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Told ya its on the players.


I kinda agree-- cept it seems to be more mental than physical..I know they don't have have the greatest skills in the league--but I just don't think they are as bad as they are playing.. I think I'll drop off of fire Haz and go w/ fire Morris --Somebody's gotta get fired !! Twisted Evil Laughing
id can Morris. Our secondary was better last year than this year. He coaches them and is closest to them. He's failing in his job just like he failed at Tampa last year when his schedule got harder
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:

Did you not read what you quoted? Addison has the intermediate zone, although he should have been 3-4 yards deeper to help narrow the window (held in by the play-action). If Wilson is in position, that is a much smaller window to throw the ball into even with Addison and Robinson hesitating at the onset. If Wilson is in position, Newton probably targets Steve Smith instead, and since we know making progressions is not a strength, a higher chance Cam is sacked.

My comment was in reference to the obvious hole in Haslett's coverage, on the outside. When I asked who was responsible for the intermediate zone I was referring to Armanti Edwards specifically. Although Fletcher does slide that way some, it isn't the LB who's suppose to be out there. You then seem to be breaking down Wilson & Fletcher's (not Addison) coverage with respect to Murphy. Let me just restate what I see. Two receivers working a combination rte on the perimeter and only one defender! Would you agree or disagree that if Murphy runs a deep vertical rte in that situation, he is in fact Josh Wilson's responsibility? Since that's obviously the case, Edwards would've been wide open anyway.

Again, the only thing I'm trying to establish is that there was definitely a hole in the coverage to exploit. Would he still have gone for 82yds? Doubtful. Had Wilson cut Murphy loose & Newton thrown to him, would he have gone for 82yds? I went back & looked at this play again. When Murphy breaks to the post, his plant foot is clearly outside the yard-marker! The contention that Josh Wilson left his area of responsibility is nonsense! Unless of course, his zone is from the yard-marker to the sideline. Is it?

It is also inaccurate that Madieu Williams was in position to rock Murphy into last month somewhere. Two steps after his break, Murphy still isn't inside the yard-marker & Williams (who you said was closing quickly) appears to still be in his backpedal, giving ground. Now, his head is the only part of his body I can see on my screen (40" Sony). I would say at that moment he's anywhere from 6 to 8yds deep, but he's also in the middle of the field! He's nowhere near the hash-mark and again, when Wilson absolutely has to cut Murphy free to make a play on Edwards, Murphy still isn't even inside of the yard-marker! Just as RSkinGM noted, Madieu Williams was in centerfield, he's nowhere on this play! No train wreck, no saving the day. He would've been in position to at best, make a great open field tackle. Train wrecks & great open field tackles, that's Madieu Williams? Since when?

In Williams defense, we know that Steve Smith also ran a post or some type of crossing rte. That's why he was in position after the catch to pancake Williams. That's why Cedric Griffin was able to make the stop on Edwards. That's likely why Williams was late to roll to the flood side. What may support your argument is the fact that Cam Newton's mechanics on this play were horrible. He doesn't step into that lob to Edwards. While Williams had no play on the ball or rec'r, a lob to Murphy wasn't likely to yield them 80yds either. Meaning, Newton would've had to make a better throw to Murphy. That said, you have to consider that he's big & has a cannon for an arm. These big QBs make those throws off their back foot all the time. Another point that Mike touched on is that out of his break, Murphy is open the whole time. Newton can be seen staring down Josh Wilson. He has a two-way go and what Wilson does decides where the ball ends up.

When you say Haslett had the secondary practicing "this play" all week, what's that suppose to mean exactly? Out of that formation, they knew the Panthers were going to flood Josh Wilson's area of responsibility? The LBs knew not to honor the crappy run action? lol... Then why did they? Why didn't Haslett have De' Hall remain in the intermediate zone instead of crashing on a 2yd rte? Why wasn't Madieu Williams "closing quickly" to the flood side on the post-snap? That makes it sound like Josh Wilson was the only guy that didn't know what was coming. All season long, all these breakdowns... did Haslett have his secondary practice those as well? There isn't a shred of physical evidence to support any of these contentions. Wilson out of his zone, none. Madieu Williams, aggressively closing on Murphy, none. They practiced that play and Josh forgot... lol What's this all based on? Who's the source? Oh, Jim Haslett?
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