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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: 2013 cap space Reply with quote

http://www.redskinshogheaven.com/2012-articles/may/a-quick-look-at-the-redskins-in-2013without-yknow-18-million-in-cap-space.html

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Here's where Bruce Allen screwed up, in my estimation. $36 million is the total amount of player option money that went to Haynesworth and Hall in 2010. Now, when the Redskins rewrote those two contracts, they just assumed that they would be in the clear once the league office approved the deals, so that there was no risk, even though at the time, But with at least the $20 million OB in Haynesworth's contract when written by Cerrato, the Redskins were going to get that in the uncapped year team salary with no penalty had Allen not even touched it. The Redskins restructured that bonus in as well with the player option simply because it was easier to make it all one mechanism, and because it was legal. It was also a bit careless... Bruce Allen is one of this fraternity, and ignorance is no defense for the carelessness of the way the Hall and Haynesworth's contracts were re-written.

I will defend to the end Allen's intentions and right to do what he did. He was correct and the NFL was wrong. But the Redskins are out a total in $20 million in penalty money that simply wouldn't have been contested had he left Cerrato's bad contract alone the way it was written. And not that it matters because they got the money back anyway through year to year cap rollovers, but the other $16 million would have been paid off when the Redskins traded Haynesworth.

The Redskins would have been in a much better financial situation without those restructures, and the only point of writing those contracts was to improve the team's cap situation. So in the end, it isn't fair, but it backfired, and not without considerable warning.

However, the Redskins cannot characterize their failures as a simple inability to spend money. No team has spent considerably more than the Redskins have in the last four years, and has less to show for it.


So there is the story of the uncapped year and 2012 offseason. I think I've been reading our cap space totally wrong if this article is right.

The salary cap is going to decline in 2013. We have the cap penalty and with thag, it means we are dealing with a cap of under $100 million. We haven't been under $100 million in team salary since salary cap was $96 million in 2005. Right now, after they sign their rookies, the Redskins will be projected at $104 million in team salary for 2013.

Hogs heaven estimates our player salary in 2013 at $109 million, and the cap at $98 million.

The players who we will have to cut or retructure are:

1. Santana Moss ($6.3 million cap number)
2. DeAngelo Hall ($8.3 million cap number)
3. Barry Cofield ($6.45 million cap number)
4. Jammal Brown ($5.0 million cap number)
5. Stephen Bowen ($5.5 million cap number)
6. Chris Chester ($4.3 million cap number)

They say that Releasing Moss, Cooley, and Hall on March 1 would save the Redskins $16.1 million on the salary cap. That's $15 million off the team books, giving them $4 million to work with. We need to decide about extending Orakpo. Then, Fred Davis, or Kory Lictensteiger are unrestricted free agents.

Seems like we are once again in financial hell thanks to Allen and Shanahan. Most of our upgrades in 2013 will have to be found in the draft.

Of course, as I've said, I think this is Moss' last year in DC. Cooley has been cut and brought back for cheap, he may not be back next year if he doesn't start producing the second half of this year. I think Brown will be gone and of course ME-Angelo Hall!

So are going to have 10 million in cap space going into next offseason? Is that correct?
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, it sounds bad but might work in our favor --get rid of the overpaid deadwood and bring in hungry young guys .. Where has paying out big contracts for free agents gotten us -- last place !
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of cap impact:
Cofield -$1,150,000
Brown +$800,000
Chester +$400,000
Bowen +$700,000
Hall +$8,000,000
Moss +$4,150,000

Result = $12.9Mm in new cap space

You are losing a lot of money in dead cap, $22.667MM. Why not just cut Hall and Moss and get $12,150,000 instead of losing four other starters in the trenches?

Sure, Jammal might not make it on to the 2013 roster, but we should wait to see how whether he will return this season and how his off-season goes before writing him off; he is better than Polumbus and the only other alternative is Compton.

EDIT: I was working on it Lavar. The only reliable account of the cap I can find is thewarpath, and I check PFT occasionally to see if it matches.

---------------------------

Bruce Allen has done wonderfully with the cap.

Vinny Cerrato's mess was hard to clean up. They've only had to do contracts like Josh Morgan and London Fletcher (guaranteeing dead cap in future years) because of the cap penalty.

The cap will not be below the $120 (EDIT) million.

Below is an edited section:
Even with the $18MM cap penalty, the Redskins will have some money because they will cut London, DeAngelo Hall and likely Santana Moss. The current contracts on the books for the 2013 season without those three is $85.142MM.

If they needed to, they could cut Josh Wilson and save 3.9MM, although that would open up both corner spots that would need to be filled, ie. unlikely.

There will not be a high-priced first rounder, so even if we account a generous ~$4.9MM to the rookies, you are looking at 12 million or more, depending on the cap, for free agent additions. That's enough for a starter (Garcon was a $4.7MM cap hit in 2012) and several back-ups. room to work with, perhaps more depending on the cap.

**Third edit for link to cap info: http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Bruce Allen has done wonderfully with the cap.

Vinny Cerrato's mess was hard to clean up. They've only had to do contracts like Josh Morgan and London Fletcher (guaranteeing dead cap in future years) because of the cap penalty.

The cap will not be below the $115 million in 2013.


This is what I was thinking.

What is the penalty we would take on if we released Bowen, Cofield and Chris Chester Footy? I've looked and I can't find the cap penalty numbers anywhere.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
In terms of cap impact:
Cofield -$1,150,000
Brown +$800,000
Chester +$400,000
Bowen +$700,000
Hall +$8,000,000
Moss +$4,150,000

Result = $12.9Mm in new cap space

You are losing a lot of money in dead cap, $22.667MM. Why not just cut Hall and Moss and get $12,150,000 instead of losing four other starters in the trenches?

Sure, Jammal might not make it on to the 2013 roster, but we should wait to see how whether he will return this season and how his off-season goes before writing him off; he is better than Polumbus and the only other alternative is Compton.

EDIT: I was working on it Lavar. The only reliable account of the cap I can find is thewarpath, and I check PFT occasionally to see if it matches.

---------------------------

Bruce Allen has done wonderfully with the cap.

Vinny Cerrato's mess was hard to clean up. They've only had to do contracts like Josh Morgan and London Fletcher (guaranteeing dead cap in future years) because of the cap penalty.

The cap will not be below the $120 (EDIT) million.

Below is an edited section:
Even with the $18MM cap penalty, the Redskins will have some money because they will cut London, DeAngelo Hall and likely Santana Moss. The current contracts on the books for the 2013 season without those three is $85.142MM.

If they needed to, they could cut Josh Wilson and save 3.9MM, although that would open up both corner spots that would need to be filled, ie. unlikely.

There will not be a high-priced first rounder, so even if we account a generous ~$4.9MM to the rookies, you are looking at 12 million or more, depending on the cap, for free agent additions. That's enough for a starter (Garcon was a $4.7MM cap hit in 2012) and several back-ups. room to work with, perhaps more depending on the cap.

**Third edit for link to cap info: http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm
ok. So you are projecting 12 million, maybe more for next year in cap room. That's cool. We can get a few starters in FA for that much. We can hopefully re-sign Davis (if he stays clean) and Kory L also.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it depends because I expect the Redskins cap penalty in 2013 to be reduced, if not scrapped.

Arrow Let's say the cap does not go up from the $120,600,000 it is at this year

Arrow The Redskins look to have over $5.465MM in cap credits to apply to next year. **Don't know how the $18MM cap penalty was accounted for in the first place, so they may not have this.

Arrow So you are looking at just over $126MM as their cap number for next year, essentially.

Arrow Assume the $18MM penalty, that brings us to $107.

Arrow Factor in the dead cap of Chris Cooley from his 2012 release ($1.833MM), and add the dead cap from releasing Fletcher, Hall and Moss ($5.267MM), and you have $7,100,000 in dead cap. We are now at $99,900,000.

Arrow Based on the $85.142MM, I cited in my previous post, that would mean $14.758MM to spend on rookies and free agents.

-----------

Now I would assume that they make either London or Moss a July 1st cut, so they'll have more than a million more to work with.

They may not be able to sign more than Davis and Steiger, and they may choose to go with a free agent instead of those two, however the young additions of Mike and Bruce are taking up more and more of the roster already, there will be little room for newcomers.

To elaborate...

If you include Compton (PS), and the three IR (Helu, Nield, Bernstine) there are 21 players on the roster from the last three drafts (only T-Will and Riley from 2010). If we include the five of the six picks from the next draft, and assume that the rest make the squad along with Compton, you are looking at half the roster from Shanahan drafts, most of which in his last three. Even if a couple of those players are cut, as we have seen with Thompson, White, Cook (etc.), that would leave you with 25 players at a relatively low cost overall aside, even with the top picks factored in.

This is of course assuming that there will be three players from the 28 total players (all who are still on the roster or IR and the draft picks of 2013) do not make the squad, AND assuming the Redskins do not trade down in the middle of the draft for more players or use their picks to trade up.

Either way, this team has found low cost alternatives, I expect that to continue.
-----------------

It's definitely not a great situation, but this organization has been in worse. The main priority should be another fight against the $18MM cap penalty. If you get that out of the way, then it's gravy. You can re-sign Orakpo to an extension, re-sign Sleepy and Steiger, bring in Jairus Byrd and Darelle Revis.
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="footy_29"]Well, it depends because I expect the Redskins cap penalty in 2013 to be reduced, if not scrapped.

Bombshell !! Are you serious !!?? Where in the world are you getting this idea?
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Well, it depends because I expect the Redskins cap penalty in 2013 to be reduced, if not scrapped.


Bombshell !! Are you serious !!?? Where in the world are you getting this idea?
a hope and a prayer Laughing
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Well, it depends because I expect the Redskins cap penalty in 2013 to be reduced, if not scrapped.


Bombshell !! Are you serious !!?? Where in the world are you getting this idea?
a hope and a prayer Laughing


Well Footy doesn't usually howl at the moon!!! I really want to hear more about this..
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Well, it depends because I expect the Redskins cap penalty in 2013 to be reduced, if not scrapped.


Bombshell !! Are you serious !!?? Where in the world are you getting this idea?
a hope and a prayer Laughing


Well Footy doesn't usually howl at the moon!!! I really want to hear more about this..


It's just a hunch based on the progress of the NFLPA in the courts. The Redskins gave up pretty easily - it is my view that they are spending these months preparing for the real assault.

As long as they are willing to play hard-ball, they can get the suspension reduced this off-season. Frankly, other than scouting, it is probably the greatest priority of this organization.
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just from memory--The NFLPA in their colusion lawsuit against the owners said the Cowboys and Redskins did NOT colude to participate in an unspoken salary cap. That's great but don't see how the two tie together.
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Well, it depends because I expect the Redskins cap penalty in 2013 to be reduced, if not scrapped.

Arrow Let's say the cap does not go up from the $120,600,000 it is at this year

Arrow The Redskins look to have over $5.465MM in cap credits to apply to next year. **Don't know how the $18MM cap penalty was accounted for in the first place, so they may not have this.

Arrow So you are looking at just over $126MM as their cap number for next year, essentially.

Arrow Assume the $18MM penalty, that brings us to $107.

Arrow Factor in the dead cap of Chris Cooley from his 2012 release ($1.833MM), and add the dead cap from releasing Fletcher, Hall and Moss ($5.267MM), and you have $7,100,000 in dead cap. We are now at $99,900,000.

Arrow Based on the $85.142MM, I cited in my previous post, that would mean $14.758MM to spend on rookies and free agents.

-----------

Now I would assume that they make either London or Moss a July 1st cut, so they'll have more than a million more to work with.

They may not be able to sign more than Davis and Steiger, and they may choose to go with a free agent instead of those two, however the young additions of Mike and Bruce are taking up more and more of the roster already, there will be little room for newcomers.

To elaborate...

If you include Compton (PS), and the three IR (Helu, Nield, Bernstine) there are 21 players on the roster from the last three drafts (only T-Will and Riley from 2010). If we include the five of the six picks from the next draft, and assume that the rest make the squad along with Compton, you are looking at half the roster from Shanahan drafts, most of which in his last three. Even if a couple of those players are cut, as we have seen with Thompson, White, Cook (etc.), that would leave you with 25 players at a relatively low cost overall aside, even with the top picks factored in.

This is of course assuming that there will be three players from the 28 total players (all who are still on the roster or IR and the draft picks of 2013) do not make the squad, AND assuming the Redskins do not trade down in the middle of the draft for more players or use their picks to trade up.

Either way, this team has found low cost alternatives, I expect that to continue.
-----------------

It's definitely not a great situation, but this organization has been in worse. The main priority should be another fight against the $18MM cap penalty. If you get that out of the way, then it's gravy. You can re-sign Orakpo to an extension, re-sign Sleepy and Steiger, bring in Jairus Byrd and Darelle Revis.


While this is a gorgeous breakdown, I cannot see Revis leaving the Jets. I dont see the Jets letting him go and being that he is the most expensive and best CB out there, he is going to get a LOT of money.



This is just 8.7 million. Think of that in terms of salary. If the Skins were to pursue him hard, and draft a CB, sign Byrd and keep Meriweather, I could potentially go along with that.

Drafting a RT or a MLB in the 3rd would be ideal. Just so many options to go through.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could go along with that also Mike23md. Then we could take a safety to develop in round 4 or 5.

You know what I just thought of. If Revis plans on having a chance at a championship in the future he may choose to jump ship and come to the skins. We have a better qb and future than the jets do.

Who knows, it's a long shot but if we have the $, it just may happen.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:

While this is a gorgeous breakdown, I cannot see Revis leaving the Jets. I dont see the Jets letting him go and being that he is the most expensive and best CB out there, he is going to get a LOT of money.



This is just 8.7 million. Think of that in terms of salary. If the Skins were to pursue him hard, and draft a CB, sign Byrd and keep Meriweather, I could potentially go along with that.

Drafting a RT or a MLB in the 3rd would be ideal. Just so many options to go through.


I made some errors I just noticed in the sentence structure, and I forgot to say after the cap penalty that I would leave a million extra aside, thereby bringing the number to 107.

Anyway...

I still am unsure about Revis because it appears that he is signed through 2013 and will be a free agent in 2014. There's some conflicting information out there. I will assume that his 2013 cap number is correct and include him in the breakdown.

The Jets cap situation is eerily similar to the Redskins of 2005-2007. They gave a horrible extension to Sanchez just to alleviate some cap concerns.

The Jets will have to decide if they are going to re-sign Landry, they will probably re-sign Brandon Moore and Dustin Keller. Those are their only notable free agents, but there are more the following year. Those three could be only 10 million, but it will probably be a bit more than that.

In the process they will have to re-negotiate with Mangold, D'Brick, Cromartie, Harris, cut Bart Scott and either cut or re-negotiate with Calvin Pace, and cut Jason Smith (likely re-signing him).

Their contracts on the books next year is $141.6MM. If we take out Jason Smith, Bart Scott and Calvin Pace that puts them at $113.9MM - I included the dead cap in here, but I do not know what other dead cap they have, and it is likely they have close to 5 million more dead cap (complete guess). I think $20MM is doable if they are willing to re-negotiate with 6-8 of their bigger contracts, except Sanchez of course, and perhaps not Santonio.

So, they are down to ~$99MM - yes, this is overly simplified - and they use $10 million to re-sign Keller, Landry, and Moore. They are left with 12 million, if we assume a cap of 121, and they have to sign their draft picks and replace their free agents, including their kicker and punter.

They do all of that work re-negotiating and they may have no more than $6 million to spend on free agents (8-10 of them) after they sign draft picks.

In sum:
If Revis is signed through 2013, that renders this whole discussion irrelevant other than pointing out that the Jets will have to do a lot of cap juggling; marquee players will have to be let go at some point. They have drafted poorly in the last ~3 drafts and relied on re-negotiating big contracts. Sounds a lot like the Redskins of the mid-2000s.
----------------------

As for the Redskins:

There are still too many depth needs, so they'll have to decide what to pick. Considering they have Zo, Riley and K.Robinson, I doubt they go after a MLB in this draft. They'll look for a low cost FA addition as depth. One of Zo or Robinson will have to start.

Same goes for RT. While they could cut Jammal Brown, I think it likely that he stays because they will only net 700k, IIRC, when they cut him. If he is cut, they'll probably keep Polumbus and work with Compton while looking for another late-round RT that fits their MO.

Even if we assume that Byrd is signed away from Buffalo, the secondary will need to be re-built because all that will be left is Josh Wilson, Brandon Merriweather, DeJon Gomes, Reed Doughty, Richard Crawford, Jordan Bernstine. In other words, they will need 4 other players to be added to the group if all the aforementioned make the squad.

By far the secondary is the most in need of new recruits. Unless there is a high-value player who Mike Shanahan feels can be a Pro-Bowl like player, he's going to pass on the RT and go for the cheaper route, as he did in Denver.
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well even if Revis is a FA, why would he come here with Haslett as the coach and a secondary that is just abysmal regardless of who else plays against him, maybe besides Byrd.
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