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Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ring of Fame wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Paying Carr being a good "fan" decision....you mean a "winning" decision, right? Which is what we've been told is the objective here. We would've had plenty left over if we paid Carr. It's a passing league, you don't stick with Carr, you're gonna have to find someone else to play there and you might have to pay them too, then what? Dump them and hope you can hit on CB a 3rd time? Nothing wrong with spending money on the essential positions if you truly are trying to win.


Easy for a fan to tell someone to cough up $50 million for a Top 10-15 CB. I get it if Carr is a Top-3 CB in the league, but is he? I don't think so either. He's been run ragged by Marshall and Julio this year. Revis, Peterson, Joseph, Haden, Flowers, Finnegan... You get the point. Also, investing that much money in you're defensive backfield (Berry, Flowers) is an enormous risk. Your hands are tied financially. CB's have a short shelf life (unless you're name is Woodson, Bailey, Barber) and Carr doesn't project as a 10-year guy. He's not your prototypical CB - which is not an inherently bad thing, it's just something to consider.

Loved his attitude, loved the way he played physical, tough defense and I loved the way he tackled. But at the end of the day, paying Carr Top-3 CB could have come back to bite us. Short-term it sucks, but long-term I believe it's the right thing.


I have said it dozens of times and I will continue to say it as long as I see it. Brandon Carr IS / WAS not worth 50 million. Ive watched 90% of the Cowboys games thus far, trust me, I spotlight him every damn snap.
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Ring of Fame


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OILCHIEFS wrote:
bigschmadt00 wrote:
But I get the feeling that Clark is someone that reads the press clippings. He's gonna see all the hate for Pioli, and know its not gonna be something he cant continue to ignore. He's pretty well connected in NFL circles from what I heard during the lockout, so he's gotta have some outsiders he can confide in for advice too.

The hiring of Pioli was a move that said two things to me. 1) I got the guy everyone wanted but couldnt get, and 2) I got a guy to handle all this ish so I don't have to. I take solice in the idea Clark will not like how this has gone and is perceived by the NFL community and he will make a change so he won't be humiliated, and so he can get back to focusing on soccer, or whatever.



I would hope Clark would make the decision based on the body of work and not on the media. Both are right, but the media is a surefire way to run a franchise to the ground.

Love the soccer comment.


Completely agree OIL. The decision should be based on the body of work. But of course the media factors in big-time.

Fans rely on the media for information > the media shapes public opinion > public opinion drives season-ticket sales > ticket sales affect largely a GM's job security.

Simply put: If Clark feels the damage done between Pioli and ignorant fans is too deep to stitch up (if he feels he can't afford the financial risk of losing tons of season-ticket holders, he'll fire Pioli.


`
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Ring of Fame


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:


I have said it dozens of times and I will continue to say it as long as I see it. Brandon Carr IS / WAS not worth 50 million. Ive watched 90% of the Cowboys games thus far, trust me, I spotlight him every damn snap.


But your average fan doesn't see every snap Carr's played this year. They see Routt & Daniels getting burned and the natural reaction is to blame Pioli. Obviously I side with your opinion - the one with stats/data on its side.
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nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ring of Fame wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
bigschmadt00 wrote:
But I get the feeling that Clark is someone that reads the press clippings. He's gonna see all the hate for Pioli, and know its not gonna be something he cant continue to ignore. He's pretty well connected in NFL circles from what I heard during the lockout, so he's gotta have some outsiders he can confide in for advice too.

The hiring of Pioli was a move that said two things to me. 1) I got the guy everyone wanted but couldnt get, and 2) I got a guy to handle all this ish so I don't have to. I take solice in the idea Clark will not like how this has gone and is perceived by the NFL community and he will make a change so he won't be humiliated, and so he can get back to focusing on soccer, or whatever.



I would hope Clark would make the decision based on the body of work and not on the media. Both are right, but the media is a surefire way to run a franchise to the ground.

Love the soccer comment.


Completely agree OIL. The decision should be based on the body of work. But of course the media factors in big-time.

Fans rely on the media for information > the media shapes public opinion > public opinion drives season-ticket sales > ticket sales affect largely a GM's job security.

Simply put: If Clark feels the damage done between Pioli and ignorant fans is too deep to stitch up (if he feels he can't afford the financial risk of losing tons of season-ticket holders, he'll fire Pioli.


`


Who are you calling ignorant fans? And not everyone bases their opinions on media articles and reports. In fact, There are alot of knowledgable fans in this forum. We aren't a bunch of ignorant fans waiting to see what Bill Williamson or some other ESPN talking head has to say about our team.

And who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the team. Pioli himself said it starts with him. He assembles the coaching staff and acquires the players.

He is the one that removed the interim HC tag from Crennel AND retained his DC responsibilities. It doesn't matter if Crennel really wanted both jobs or thought he could handle them. The fact is, this was determined as something that didn't work out and needed to be corrected mid-stream.

And irregardless of Carr, the Routt signing this offseason ended up being another failure. I don't give a rat's behind who we had last year as our cornerback opposite Flowers. Routt was signed to be our #2 corner - and he was paid alot of money to do so...and was just cut mid-season.

Yes, those decisions were made, authorized, whatever you want to call it by Scott Pioli the GM. The ultimate result of those actions were also determined by Scott Pioli.

This might be a stupid analogy but I think of a mutual fund manager that takes an investor's money and makes poor decisions on how that money is invested. So when the money is lost, would it be legitimate for that fund manager to blame the individual funds that he invested in as deserving the ultimate blame? No, he was hired by the investor to properly manage the funds and make the best decisions possible to make the investor money.

The bottom line is, I don't get where you call us ignorant fans. Maybe you don't mean us per se, but some general group. But either way, when you come in and start calling a group uninformed it is going to ruffle some feathers.
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Ring of Fame


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
Ring of Fame wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
bigschmadt00 wrote:
But I get the feeling that Clark is someone that reads the press clippings. He's gonna see all the hate for Pioli, and know its not gonna be something he cant continue to ignore. He's pretty well connected in NFL circles from what I heard during the lockout, so he's gotta have some outsiders he can confide in for advice too.

The hiring of Pioli was a move that said two things to me. 1) I got the guy everyone wanted but couldnt get, and 2) I got a guy to handle all this ish so I don't have to. I take solice in the idea Clark will not like how this has gone and is perceived by the NFL community and he will make a change so he won't be humiliated, and so he can get back to focusing on soccer, or whatever.



I would hope Clark would make the decision based on the body of work and not on the media. Both are right, but the media is a surefire way to run a franchise to the ground.

Love the soccer comment.


Completely agree OIL. The decision should be based on the body of work. But of course the media factors in big-time.

Fans rely on the media for information > the media shapes public opinion > public opinion drives season-ticket sales > ticket sales affect largely a GM's job security.

Simply put: If Clark feels the damage done between Pioli and ignorant fans is too deep to stitch up (if he feels he can't afford the financial risk of losing tons of season-ticket holders, he'll fire Pioli.


`


Who are you calling ignorant fans? And not everyone bases their opinions on media articles and reports. In fact, There are alot of knowledgable fans in this forum. We aren't a bunch of ignorant fans waiting to see what Bill Williamson or some other ESPN talking head has to say about our team.

And who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the team. Pioli himself said it starts with him. He assembles the coaching staff and acquires the players.

He is the one that removed the interim HC tag from Crennel AND retained his DC responsibilities. It doesn't matter if Crennel really wanted both jobs or thought he could handle them. The fact is, this was determined as something that didn't work out and needed to be corrected mid-stream.

And irregardless of Carr, the Routt signing this offseason ended up being another failure. I don't give a rat's behind who we had last year as our cornerback opposite Flowers. Routt was signed to be our #2 corner - and he was paid alot of money to do so...and was just cut mid-season.

Yes, those decisions were made, authorized, whatever you want to call it by Scott Pioli the GM. The ultimate result of those actions were also determined by Scott Pioli.

This might be a stupid analogy but I think of a mutual fund manager that takes an investor's money and makes poor decisions on how that money is invested. So when the money is lost, would it be legitimate for that fund manager to blame the individual funds that he invested in as deserving the ultimate blame? No, he was hired by the investor to properly manage the funds and make the best decisions possible to make the investor money.

The bottom line is, I don't get where you call us ignorant fans. Maybe you don't mean us per se, but some general group. But either way, when you come in and start calling a group uninformed.


'Ignorant fans' was directed at the strikingly-high number of fans who seem to believe the NFL is one big game of Madden. This philosophy: "We have money, spend it god-d****t! Buy wins now!"

I certainly was not referring to the board as a whole and that's my bad if it came off that way.

We paid Routt a lot of money to be our No.2 CB? Routt signed for 3 years / $18 million. We'll end up paying him around $6 million. That's a miniscule amount relative to the Chiefs franchise. What Pioli could have done is what the Raiders did - sign him for, say, 4 years for $30 million. Yes, Pioli made a mistake in signing a terrible player. But give credit where it's due, he cut bait early and, to use your analogy, limited the loss on the investment.

And yes, ultimately Pioli is responsible for the entire process. But do we not all agree he's amassed solid young talent to build around? Has he not locked up Flowers, Charles, Tamba, and D.J. with value-heavy, long-term contracts? Do we have a single "bad" contract on this team aside from Tyson Jackson's contract (which Pioli restructured to actually make some sense)? Does anyone believe we are NOT a coach/QB away from being a Top 12 team in the league?

See, what Pioli isn't responsible for is a sloppy, undisciplined, weak-willed team. That's on the coaches. (I will admit Pioli's insistence on sticking with Cassel probably contributes to the rest of the team not 'buying in,' aka playing sloppy, undisciplined, etc.)

Can we at least agree that Pioli's got us in a better position now that when he took over a 2-14 team?

`
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ring of Fame wrote:
nicfre2011 wrote:
Ring of Fame wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
bigschmadt00 wrote:
But I get the feeling that Clark is someone that reads the press clippings. He's gonna see all the hate for Pioli, and know its not gonna be something he cant continue to ignore. He's pretty well connected in NFL circles from what I heard during the lockout, so he's gotta have some outsiders he can confide in for advice too.

The hiring of Pioli was a move that said two things to me. 1) I got the guy everyone wanted but couldnt get, and 2) I got a guy to handle all this ish so I don't have to. I take solice in the idea Clark will not like how this has gone and is perceived by the NFL community and he will make a change so he won't be humiliated, and so he can get back to focusing on soccer, or whatever.



I would hope Clark would make the decision based on the body of work and not on the media. Both are right, but the media is a surefire way to run a franchise to the ground.

Love the soccer comment.


Completely agree OIL. The decision should be based on the body of work. But of course the media factors in big-time.

Fans rely on the media for information > the media shapes public opinion > public opinion drives season-ticket sales > ticket sales affect largely a GM's job security.

Simply put: If Clark feels the damage done between Pioli and ignorant fans is too deep to stitch up (if he feels he can't afford the financial risk of losing tons of season-ticket holders, he'll fire Pioli.


`


Who are you calling ignorant fans? And not everyone bases their opinions on media articles and reports. In fact, There are alot of knowledgable fans in this forum. We aren't a bunch of ignorant fans waiting to see what Bill Williamson or some other ESPN talking head has to say about our team.

And who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the team. Pioli himself said it starts with him. He assembles the coaching staff and acquires the players.

He is the one that removed the interim HC tag from Crennel AND retained his DC responsibilities. It doesn't matter if Crennel really wanted both jobs or thought he could handle them. The fact is, this was determined as something that didn't work out and needed to be corrected mid-stream.

And irregardless of Carr, the Routt signing this offseason ended up being another failure. I don't give a rat's behind who we had last year as our cornerback opposite Flowers. Routt was signed to be our #2 corner - and he was paid alot of money to do so...and was just cut mid-season.

Yes, those decisions were made, authorized, whatever you want to call it by Scott Pioli the GM. The ultimate result of those actions were also determined by Scott Pioli.

This might be a stupid analogy but I think of a mutual fund manager that takes an investor's money and makes poor decisions on how that money is invested. So when the money is lost, would it be legitimate for that fund manager to blame the individual funds that he invested in as deserving the ultimate blame? No, he was hired by the investor to properly manage the funds and make the best decisions possible to make the investor money.

The bottom line is, I don't get where you call us ignorant fans. Maybe you don't mean us per se, but some general group. But either way, when you come in and start calling a group uninformed.


'Ignorant fans' was directed at the strikingly-high number of fans who seem to believe the NFL is one big game of Madden. This philosophy: "We have money, spend it god-d****t! Buy wins now!"

I certainly was not referring to the board as a whole and that's my bad if it came off that way.

We paid Routt a lot of money to be our No.2 CB? Routt signed for 3 years / $18 million. We'll end up paying him around $6 million. That's a miniscule amount relative to the Chiefs franchise. What Pioli could have done is what the Raiders did - sign him for, say, 4 years for $30 million. Yes, Pioli made a mistake in signing a terrible player. But give credit where it's due, he cut bait early and, to use your analogy, limited the loss on the investment.

And yes, ultimately Pioli is responsible for the entire process. But do we not all agree he's amassed solid young talent to build around? Has he not locked up Flowers, Charles, Tamba, and D.J. with value-heavy, long-term contracts? Do we have a single "bad" contract on this team aside from Tyson Jackson's contract (which Pioli restructured to actually make some sense)? Does anyone believe we are NOT a coach/QB away from being a Top 12 team in the league?

See, what Pioli isn't responsible for is a sloppy, undisciplined, weak-willed team. That's on the coaches. (I will admit Pioli's insistence on sticking with Cassel probably contributes to the rest of the team not 'buying in,' aka playing sloppy, undisciplined, etc.)

Can we at least agree that Pioli's got us in a better position now that when he took over a 2-14 team?

`


Yes, it is on the coaches. But ultimately Pioli is the person in charge that makes the decisions who is on the coaching staff. We have all heard the talk of having the "right 53" over and over. Well, the "right 53" is the team we see that lacks discipline, is sloppy, etc., etc. Yes, he has extended some players (which for the most part were on the roster already).

All I am saying is, yes, part of the blame rightfully falls on the coaches just like part of the blame also rightfully falls on the players. And the only common denominator between those two is the person that is in charge of both groups - the GM.

And as of right now, how can we say we are better off than we were several years ago. We are definitely not seeing the results in the Win column.

If we were progressing we would be taking two steps forward with an occassional one step backward being ok. As it stands now we have been taking several steps backward for every step forward.
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Ring of Fame


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:


Yes, it is on the coaches. But ultimately Pioli is the person in charge that makes the decisions who is on the coaching staff. We have all heard the talk of having the "right 53" over and over. Well, the "right 53" is the team we see that lacks discipline, is sloppy, etc., etc. Yes, he has extended some players (which for the most part were on the roster already).

All I am saying is, yes, part of the blame rightfully falls on the coaches just like part of the blame also rightfully falls on the players. And the only common denominator between those two is the person that is in charge of both groups - the GM.

And as of right now, how can we say we are better off than we were several years ago. We are definitely not seeing the results in the Win column.

If we were progressing we would be taking two steps forward with an occassional one step backward being ok. As it stands now we have been taking several steps backward for every step forward.


In the win column, no, we're not progressing. That's obvious but that's also a crude measure of progress. It simply divides everything into one of two columns. In my opinion, this year will help young guys like Poe, Houston, Bailey, Allen, etc. more than it will hurt them. That wave of talent is absolutely the key to this team being good - and good for a few years.

Regardless of who our GM when next season begins, I'm convinced this team is a good coach/solid QB away from being one of the better young teams in the league. Pioli will likely never get credit for building this roster, but when you get down to the bare facts, he's done well in roster building. Now everything else...
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:


I have said it dozens of times and I will continue to say it as long as I see it. Brandon Carr IS / WAS not worth 50 million. Ive watched 90% of the Cowboys games thus far, trust me, I spotlight him every damn snap.


I've said it a hundred times, i'll say it again...Stanford Routt was not worth 6 million for a one year trial.

We could've locked up our CB's for the future...I get it, it's a lot for one position, but when you have that much cap room and you aren't putting any money in a top QB, you have to atleast do your best to stop other top QB's.

Also realize you can't always only pay guys what they're worth or you won't win. Who cares what Carr is doing with the Cowboys, he was good with our group of players in our system.
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People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:


Who are you calling ignorant fans? And not everyone bases their opinions on media articles and reports. In fact, There are alot of knowledgable fans in this forum. We aren't a bunch of ignorant fans waiting to see what Bill Williamson or some other ESPN talking head has to say about our team.



you're absolutely right and most good fans disagree with the "ESPN" opinions on the Chiefs, I mean they have basically been Cassel supporters for the most part.

The funniest thing I ever heard was this offseason when Tim Hasselbeck said of guys like Cassel, Romo, and some other QB I forget, that Cassel has the least to be worried about regarding his future as a starting QB.

Nic, I'm sympathetic about the feathers...we all deserve better as fans.
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People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of
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Ring of Fame


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:


I have said it dozens of times and I will continue to say it as long as I see it. Brandon Carr IS / WAS not worth 50 million. Ive watched 90% of the Cowboys games thus far, trust me, I spotlight him every damn snap.


I've said it a hundred times, i'll say it again...Stanford Routt was not worth 6 million for a one year trial.

We could've locked up our CB's for the future...I get it, it's a lot for one position, but when you have that much cap room and you aren't putting any money in a top QB, you have to atleast do your best to stop other top QB's.

Also realize you can't always only pay guys what they're worth or you won't win. Who cares what Carr is doing with the Cowboys, he was good with our group of players in our system.


So pay a system cornerback $50 million? You don't make that investment unless you're getting a bonafide No. 1 corner. Nothing less.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:


I have said it dozens of times and I will continue to say it as long as I see it. Brandon Carr IS / WAS not worth 50 million. Ive watched 90% of the Cowboys games thus far, trust me, I spotlight him every damn snap.


I've said it a hundred times, i'll say it again...Stanford Routt was not worth 6 million for a one year trial.

We could've locked up our CB's for the future...I get it, it's a lot for one position, but when you have that much cap room and you aren't putting any money in a top QB, you have to atleast do your best to stop other top QB's.

Also realize you can't always only pay guys what they're worth or you won't win. Who cares what Carr is doing with the Cowboys, he was good with our group of players in our system.

Sounds like we need another lesson in salary cap 101: KC Chiefs edition from KC_Guy. If we signed Carr for 10mm a year, we could not afford Albert's new contract or one for Bowe either. Granted we actually need to do that, but I'm confident our next GM will at least try.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have never heard that Silenced

how would that work again...we don't have Routt that puts us at like 30 million under. Give us Carr, so we're down to 20. So Bowe/Albert get a near combined 20/mill a year raise if they get new deals? Admittedly i'm not up on the salary cap rules.
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People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of
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OILCHIEFS


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Well I have never heard that Silenced

how would that work again...we don't have Routt that puts us at like 30 million under. Give us Carr, so we're down to 20. So Bowe/Albert get a near combined 20/mill a year raise if they get new deals? Admittedly i'm not up on the salary cap rules.



Now remember all the other people we would need to sign withing that 20M. All the rookies, depth players, even belcher and dorsey(maybe).

I liked the logic behind what Pioli did and at the time I thought Routt was a good deal for us. Obviously I was wrong but doesn't take away from the fact that the logic made sense.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OILCHIEFS wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Well I have never heard that Silenced

how would that work again...we don't have Routt that puts us at like 30 million under. Give us Carr, so we're down to 20. So Bowe/Albert get a near combined 20/mill a year raise if they get new deals? Admittedly i'm not up on the salary cap rules.



Now remember all the other people we would need to sign withing that 20M. All the rookies, depth players, even belcher and dorsey(maybe).

I liked the logic behind what Pioli did and at the time I thought Routt was a good deal for us. Obviously I was wrong but doesn't take away from the fact that the logic made sense.

Rage, that $26MM number, or whatever it is the highest overall number reported. The smallest is around $16MM IIRC. We are maybe somewhere in between, but the lower number came from a more reputable source IMO.

Regardless, going off of memory here, that cap room includes roughly $10MM in rollover money. So that means if we used it this year, next year we'd not have it available, and that cap room goes from $16MM-$26MM down to $6MM-$16MM. That is the issue with the idea of retaining Carr and in reality either Bowe or Albert.

Yes other's contract will change during this time and some guys will walk into UFA, but most that leave will be low priced guys. Add to that new UFA's, even cheap ones, and draft picks each year, and it becomes easy to see how signing Carr for $9MM would have tied our hands some.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigschmadt00 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Well I have never heard that Silenced

how would that work again...we don't have Routt that puts us at like 30 million under. Give us Carr, so we're down to 20. So Bowe/Albert get a near combined 20/mill a year raise if they get new deals? Admittedly i'm not up on the salary cap rules.



Now remember all the other people we would need to sign withing that 20M. All the rookies, depth players, even belcher and dorsey(maybe).

I liked the logic behind what Pioli did and at the time I thought Routt was a good deal for us. Obviously I was wrong but doesn't take away from the fact that the logic made sense.

Rage, that $26MM number, or whatever it is the highest overall number reported. The smallest is around $16MM IIRC. We are maybe somewhere in between, but the lower number came from a more reputable source IMO.

Regardless, going off of memory here, that cap room includes roughly $10MM in rollover money. So that means if we used it this year, next year we'd not have it available, and that cap room goes from $16MM-$26MM down to $6MM-$16MM. That is the issue with the idea of retaining Carr and in reality either Bowe or Albert.

Yes other's contract will change during this time and some guys will walk into UFA, but most that leave will be low priced guys. Add to that new UFA's, even cheap ones, and draft picks each year, and it becomes easy to see how signing Carr for $9MM would have tied our hands some.


What is Cassel's contract for next year?
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