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Burgesskills


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1114
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't get it is why some of you get so mad when someone has an opinion? Isn't this an open forum? If Sliver Surfer or Nough has a negative opinion about CP who guys get all mad.

They make good points. Tampa was playing a soft coverage, but they were blitzing and creating pressure. Even though Palmer helped make it a game, he crumbled under pressure again and threw a terrible pass rookies don't even make. He looked like Rivers or Jay Cutler. Guy in his face so he blindly flings the ball in the air off his back foot. It was bad. Take the sack or throw the ball away. All the talent in the world, but lacks in the decision making.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
What I don't get it is why some of you get so mad when someone has an opinion? Isn't this an open forum? If Sliver Surfer or Nough has a negative opinion about CP who guys get all mad.

They make good points. Tampa was playing a soft coverage, but they were blitzing and creating pressure. Even though Palmer helped make it a game, he crumbled under pressure again and threw a terrible pass rookies don't even make. He looked like Rivers or Jay Cutler. Guy in his face so he blindly flings the ball in the air off his back foot. It was bad. Take the sack or throw the ball away. All the talent in the world, but lacks in the decision making.


I'm confused by that statement.... is that like saying they were welcoming people w/ open arms by slamming the door in their face??

It is an open forum and anyone can say whatever they want. It's all about how you present a point though. NCOUGH gave everyone his standards on what would be an acceptable season for Palmer. Carson is currently exceeding his own standards but yet, he still whines and cries about him. He also has very little logic in his gripes but that goes hand-in-hand w/ what was said before. He's exceeding expectations but he still wants to whine about it so he can't logically whine about it when his personal expectations are being met.

Silver is just a troll. None of his posts are meant to be taken seriously.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

and our qb is cp not gannon.

why do we have to wait till the 4th when the game is almost good as over to turn it on? do i have to mention the amount of points we have scored in the 3rd. Im not just blaming cp im blaming the whole offense.

defense did good for the first half but we know they are spotty at best. we need to sustain drives to keep them off the field and rested.

off top fwiw im not saying tp could do better and its too late in the season for him to play so he doesnt even matter anymore.


Totally agree that we need to sustain drives and that if our O had got going in the first half it could have been a differnet game, but surely the major problem is running the ball? We got 20 total yards in the whole game. Now we know Tampa's D isn't good v the pass but when everyone knows exactly what you're going to do it makes it somewhat easier on the D, the line can just fly at the QB and the DBs know whats coming.

It just seems to me that whatever CP does you're going to bash him or discredit him....... I'm not a fan of Rolando McClain but i'm not so blind as to ignore when he does well. At least be humble enough to admit that whatever our O did in this game postive it was directly because of Palmer.


it seems like you guys completely ignore when i give cp props for doing good. how ironic. like i said before ill give props where/when they are due imo. i put cp in the good section. i just put his ints in the ugly section.

where would you guys want me to put his ints? in the good section?

and enough with this credibility stuff. its a computer forum. no one poster is better than anyone else on here. if so they would have a job working for the nfl somewhere. we all have our own opinions about why things did or didnt work. we dont all have to agree all the time.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
no one poster is better than anyone else on here. if so they would have a job working for the nfl somewhere.


comit2excellence >>>
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

and our qb is cp not gannon.

why do we have to wait till the 4th when the game is almost good as over to turn it on? do i have to mention the amount of points we have scored in the 3rd. Im not just blaming cp im blaming the whole offense.

defense did good for the first half but we know they are spotty at best. we need to sustain drives to keep them off the field and rested.

off top fwiw im not saying tp could do better and its too late in the season for him to play so he doesnt even matter anymore.


Totally agree that we need to sustain drives and that if our O had got going in the first half it could have been a differnet game, but surely the major problem is running the ball? We got 20 total yards in the whole game. Now we know Tampa's D isn't good v the pass but when everyone knows exactly what you're going to do it makes it somewhat easier on the D, the line can just fly at the QB and the DBs know whats coming.

It just seems to me that whatever CP does you're going to bash him or discredit him....... I'm not a fan of Rolando McClain but i'm not so blind as to ignore when he does well. At least be humble enough to admit that whatever our O did in this game postive it was directly because of Palmer.


it seems like you guys completely ignore when i give cp props for doing good. how ironic. like i said before ill give props where/when they are due imo. i put cp in the good section. i just put his ints in the ugly section.

where would you guys want me to put his ints? in the good section?

and enough with this credibility stuff. its a computer forum. no one poster is better than anyone else on here. if so they would have a job working for the nfl somewhere. we all have our own opinions about why things did or didnt work. we dont all have to agree all the time.


Not trying to make this personal as you said correctly we all have opinions and you are totally entitled to yours, however you clearly tried to discredit the 'good' Palmer by saying "in garbage time" as if he just racks up the stats when the D wasn't trying? I could understand if it was Brady or Manning or some other team but this is the guy holding our damn offence together.............sure he's no Dan Marino or Joe Montana but he's the best we've had in a long while and (to me at least) he's putting his heart and soul into trying to drag out a W and taking big risks which sometimes backfire.

PS I got to admire your persistence and conviction Smile
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5944
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
no one poster is better than anyone else on here. if so they would have a job working for the nfl somewhere.


comit2excellence >>>


A cornucopia of misinformation. LOL. I'm still miffed by "Don't believe what the media is saying about Streater, Criner is gonna be the man".
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

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Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 12151
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
no one poster is better than anyone else on here. if so they would have a job working for the nfl somewhere.


comit2excellence >>>


A cornucopia of misinformation. LOL. I'm still miffed by "Don't believe what the media is saying about Streater, Criner is gonna be the man".


"Ford was watching film w/ McFadden. They both drank Sprite"

LOL. He was right about some stuff but he was VERY off-base about a lot of other stuff. Remember when McFadden was definitely going to be back in week 11 last season? I know there's other factors but saying definitive things isn't a good thing when there's skeptics to begin w/ haha. Oh well....
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G


Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 3309
Location: Hollywierd
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't going to comment but why not...
The good bad and ugly is we have a gunslinger for a QB in a system that is suppose to be dink and dunk.
We have a power running game that is being forced into a ZBS but they have added and adapted a bit...
We have talent and show it at times (Atlanta) and not others (JAX) but the results are mixed...

Yesterday they didn't give up and that makes me happy as a fan. 2006-2009 was brutal to watch. We have talent, but not the right system for that talent at least on Offense. What the GM/HC do in the off-season will be interesting
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5944
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
What I don't get it is why some of you get so mad when someone has an opinion? Isn't this an open forum? If Sliver Surfer or Nough has a negative opinion about CP who guys get all mad.

They make good points. Tampa was playing a soft coverage, but they were blitzing and creating pressure. Even though Palmer helped make it a game, he crumbled under pressure again and threw a terrible pass rookies don't even make. He looked like Rivers or Jay Cutler. Guy in his face so he blindly flings the ball in the air off his back foot. It was bad. Take the sack or throw the ball away. All the talent in the world, but lacks in the decision making.


Excellent question Burgess. In order to form an informed opinion it must be based in fact and while it is true that Palmer has thrown interceptions that have ultimately determined the outcome of games it does not accurately describe the entire truth without the benefit of context.

You may not care for such reliance on the passing game, you may consider Palmer a gunslinger. However, empirical evidence suggests that Palmer is NOT the reason the Raiders are losing games. Statistically Palmer is probably on pace for the best individual season of his career. When someone is either unable or unwilling to change positions in the face of empirical evidence then it suggests bias. Period.

Inability to properly assess priorities indicates bias or dysfunction. Oversimplification or taking a microscopic perspective are tools of rhetoric and add nothing of substance to the conversation. Palmer probably isn't in the top 5 of reasons the Raiders are losing. Yet he commands a disproportionate amount of our criticisms.

LISTEN to what the coaches are saying. I have YET to hear "Yeah, we can't have that" in reference to Palmer's play. (ie. Coughlin, Garrett, Reid) That's an indication that the FO and coaching staff don't think that Palmer's play is the problem. What's more realistic, that the FO & coaching staff all have the heads up Carson's butt as if Carson is some media darling? or is it more realistic that those who think Carson is problem 1b to the defense are probably off base?
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Jamethus92


Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: Colorado Springs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first amendment doesn't protect you from everyone else telling you that you're completely wrong.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

and our qb is cp not gannon.

why do we have to wait till the 4th when the game is almost good as over to turn it on? do i have to mention the amount of points we have scored in the 3rd. Im not just blaming cp im blaming the whole offense.

defense did good for the first half but we know they are spotty at best. we need to sustain drives to keep them off the field and rested.

off top fwiw im not saying tp could do better and its too late in the season for him to play so he doesnt even matter anymore.


Totally agree that we need to sustain drives and that if our O had got going in the first half it could have been a differnet game, but surely the major problem is running the ball? We got 20 total yards in the whole game. Now we know Tampa's D isn't good v the pass but when everyone knows exactly what you're going to do it makes it somewhat easier on the D, the line can just fly at the QB and the DBs know whats coming.

It just seems to me that whatever CP does you're going to bash him or discredit him....... I'm not a fan of Rolando McClain but i'm not so blind as to ignore when he does well. At least be humble enough to admit that whatever our O did in this game postive it was directly because of Palmer.


it seems like you guys completely ignore when i give cp props for doing good. how ironic. like i said before ill give props where/when they are due imo. i put cp in the good section. i just put his ints in the ugly section.

where would you guys want me to put his ints? in the good section?

and enough with this credibility stuff. its a computer forum. no one poster is better than anyone else on here. if so they would have a job working for the nfl somewhere. we all have our own opinions about why things did or didnt work. we dont all have to agree all the time.


Not trying to make this personal as you said correctly we all have opinions and you are totally entitled to yours, however you clearly tried to discredit the 'good' Palmer by saying "in garbage time" as if he just racks up the stats when the D wasn't trying? I could understand if it was Brady or Manning or some other team but this is the guy holding our damn offence together.............sure he's no Dan Marino or Joe Montana but he's the best we've had in a long while and (to me at least) he's putting his heart and soul into trying to drag out a W and taking big risks which sometimes backfire.

PS I got to admire your persistence and conviction Smile


i say "garbage time" cause the defense was playing off or in total pass mode after the 3rd. id say cp gets most of his stats in the 4th, just guessing tho.

cp has talent, the offense has talent minus willie

cp has made 13tds 8ints 3 fumbles.
dmac, reece, streeter, tj, each fumbled once.
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually his best quarter is the 2nd Sad unless you think that's garbage time also. And the line is far worse than just naming Smith as a problem.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
What I don't get it is why some of you get so mad when someone has an opinion? Isn't this an open forum? If Sliver Surfer or Nough has a negative opinion about CP who guys get all mad.

They make good points. Tampa was playing a soft coverage, but they were blitzing and creating pressure. Even though Palmer helped make it a game, he crumbled under pressure again and threw a terrible pass rookies don't even make. He looked like Rivers or Jay Cutler. Guy in his face so he blindly flings the ball in the air off his back foot. It was bad. Take the sack or throw the ball away. All the talent in the world, but lacks in the decision making.



I wanted to break this up into two different posts to address another issue. I'm not a guru in this but this is what I see:

Palmer doesn't strike me as a gunslinger as he doesn't have the arrogance of Cutler, Rivers or Farve. Palmer is more reminiscent of Romo, imo (although i understand Romo is a gunslinger himself). Like Romo, Palmer doesn't get in guys faces on the sidelines but he's supportive and educates. But Palmer follows the gameplan that is laid out in meetings and will throw the timing route fully expecting the WR to be on the same page. As evidence, Hue Jackson's offense totally ignored the TE, accordingly Palmer rarely got Boss or Myers going. Maybe I'm off but it appears Knapp has basically put his spin on Hue's playbook with a sprinkling of ZBS.

Moore gets alligator arms on crossing routes across the middle. It's basically the only route I see him dropping multiple balls. DHB is doing awesome in run blocking but is determined to prove he can catch by routinely only using one arm. Streater does an excellent job of becoming a defender by batting down balls if he can't get to it but is struggling with "site reads" (automatically changing the route based on coverage), which is common among WRs with less than 3 years (see: Dez Bryant who still doesn't have this mastered).

Site reads are where I see most of Palmer's picks coming from sand it's why I am not as concerned as others. That's why it looks like Palmer is throwing directly to the defense. The Raiders WRs are young but veteran players who struggle with site reads are TO, Ocho & Dez Bryant. Throwing off his back foot is often the result of consistent poor OL blocking. Often Palmer is forced to make throws while being mauled. If he didn't ever make these throws the offense wouldn't move at all. At this moment Palmer IS the offense.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
What I don't get it is why some of you get so mad when someone has an opinion? Isn't this an open forum? If Sliver Surfer or Nough has a negative opinion about CP who guys get all mad.

They make good points. Tampa was playing a soft coverage, but they were blitzing and creating pressure. Even though Palmer helped make it a game, he crumbled under pressure again and threw a terrible pass rookies don't even make. He looked like Rivers or Jay Cutler. Guy in his face so he blindly flings the ball in the air off his back foot. It was bad. Take the sack or throw the ball away. All the talent in the world, but lacks in the decision making.



I wanted to break this up into two different posts to address another issue. I'm not a guru in this but this is what I see:

Palmer doesn't strike me as a gunslinger as he doesn't have the arrogance of Cutler, Rivers or Farve. Palmer is more reminiscent of Romo, imo (although i understand Romo is a gunslinger himself). Like Romo, Palmer doesn't get in guys faces on the sidelines but he's supportive and educates. But Palmer follows the gameplan that is laid out in meetings and will throw the timing route fully expecting the WR to be on the same page. As evidence, Hue Jackson's offense totally ignored the TE, accordingly Palmer rarely got Boss or Myers going. Maybe I'm off but it appears Knapp has basically put his spin on Hue's playbook with a sprinkling of ZBS.

Moore gets alligator arms on crossing routes across the middle. It's basically the only route I see him dropping multiple balls. DHB is doing awesome in run blocking but is determined to prove he can catch by routinely only using one arm. Streater does an excellent job of becoming a defender by batting down balls if he can't get to it but is struggling with "site reads" (automatically changing the route based on coverage), which is common among WRs with less than 3 years (see: Dez Bryant who still doesn't have this mastered).

Site reads are where I see most of Palmer's picks coming from sand it's why I am not as concerned as others. That's why it looks like Palmer is throwing directly to the defense. The Raiders WRs are young but veteran players who struggle with site reads are TO, Ocho & Dez Bryant. Throwing off his back foot is often the result of consistent poor OL blocking. Often Palmer is forced to make throws while being mauled. If he didn't ever make these throws the offense wouldn't move at all. At this moment Palmer IS the offense.


Albeit you're a self-proclaimed non-guru (want another overuse of a hyphen? I'll do it!!!!!) this is a pretty spot-on (TOLD YOU!!!!) post. People are acting like he's just taking his drop then once the back foot hits, he's leaning back and just chucking it into the middle of nowhere. Two of those INTs yesterday seemed to be miscommunication while one could've been argued the timing between Moore and Palmer were off and one was just a split second too early and since the defender was playing zone, it was easy for them to see and make the play. Palmer definitely deserves his fair share of the criticism for his mistakes but to say it's all his fault is a completely false statement.
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
What I don't get it is why some of you get so mad when someone has an opinion? Isn't this an open forum? If Sliver Surfer or Nough has a negative opinion about CP who guys get all mad.

They make good points. Tampa was playing a soft coverage, but they were blitzing and creating pressure. Even though Palmer helped make it a game, he crumbled under pressure again and threw a terrible pass rookies don't even make. He looked like Rivers or Jay Cutler. Guy in his face so he blindly flings the ball in the air off his back foot. It was bad. Take the sack or throw the ball away. All the talent in the world, but lacks in the decision making.



I wanted to break this up into two different posts to address another issue. I'm not a guru in this but this is what I see:

Palmer doesn't strike me as a gunslinger as he doesn't have the arrogance of Cutler, Rivers or Farve. Palmer is more reminiscent of Romo, imo (although i understand Romo is a gunslinger himself). Like Romo, Palmer doesn't get in guys faces on the sidelines but he's supportive and educates. But Palmer follows the gameplan that is laid out in meetings and will throw the timing route fully expecting the WR to be on the same page. As evidence, Hue Jackson's offense totally ignored the TE, accordingly Palmer rarely got Boss or Myers going. Maybe I'm off but it appears Knapp has basically put his spin on Hue's playbook with a sprinkling of ZBS.

Moore gets alligator arms on crossing routes across the middle. It's basically the only route I see him dropping multiple balls. DHB is doing awesome in run blocking but is determined to prove he can catch by routinely only using one arm. Streater does an excellent job of becoming a defender by batting down balls if he can't get to it but is struggling with "site reads" (automatically changing the route based on coverage), which is common among WRs with less than 3 years (see: Dez Bryant who still doesn't have this mastered).

Site reads are where I see most of Palmer's picks coming from sand it's why I am not as concerned as others. That's why it looks like Palmer is throwing directly to the defense. The Raiders WRs are young but veteran players who struggle with site reads are TO, Ocho & Dez Bryant. Throwing off his back foot is often the result of consistent poor OL blocking. Often Palmer is forced to make throws while being mauled. If he didn't ever make these throws the offense wouldn't move at all. At this moment Palmer IS the offense.


Great post, I agree palmer is the best guy on the offense right now. Does he throw INTs at the worst possible times? Hell yes, but if our D didn't let a rookie RB set the record for rushing TD's he would't have to be slinging it all over the place. If we had a good, not even great, offensive line we would probably see a decrease in his INTs. If his WRs weren't all young, we'd see better numbers. Do I think Palmer is the franchise QB? No I do however think he can do a fine job (much better than Cambell,Grad, Culpepper, McCown, Russell, or Collins ever could have.) He is certainly better than any QB we can draft. Honestly we need to build from the trenches on out on both sides.
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