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PurpleMugen


Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
^So you see my point, then? Your dismissal of Webb is the same as many other people's dismissal of Ponder - exactly the same. Yet such talk concerning Ponder has not been well received by you in the past. Should we not claim you are writing off Webb too soon and that you don't actually know whether he will be the answer yet or not, then? Sounds perfectly reasonable and fair to me.


I don't disagree with you, but my advice would be: just leave it alone.

I already got a lot of people mad at me in the Ponder thread over this issue and you know what? It's not worth it.

Ponder has just about played his way out of being a starting QB in this league. He won't get benched until the Vikings fall out of contention, or perhaps not at all this year, but it will happen. Until then, there's no point in getting into these flame wars.


I know exactly what you are talking about, but I do not think it is a lost cause at all, and that's something I've discovered over the past few days. Some posters have gotten angry with you and me over our assessments, I acknowledge that. But a few posters have, in the past few days, PM'ed me apologies for their behavior. That has truly taught me something. There are a few bad apples on every forum on the Web, but there are also plenty of well-meaning people who can own up to how they've treated others in the minority opinion. This proves to me that there is a point to all this and it has truly been a very pleasant and welcome surprise.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
^So you see my point, then? Your dismissal of Webb is the same as many other people's dismissal of Ponder - exactly the same. Yet such talk concerning Ponder has not been well received by you in the past. Should we not claim you are writing off Webb too soon and that you don't actually know whether he will be the answer yet or not, then? Sounds perfectly reasonable and fair to me.


I do see your point to a certain extent, but I believe that I have also provided more justification beyond what others have stated in their dismissal of Ponder (and it's also not the main point I was initially making). Several others have essentially just stated that Ponder sucks and will always suck, I just know it. I've provided an explanation of what I've seen from Webb that suggests to me that he doesn't warrant an opportunity over Ponder at this point. There's nothing in Webb's history that suggests that he does. It's not just simply "Ponder sucks, let's see what the next guy does."


On the contrary, I don't see any of this. I have found your justification, if anything, less substantive than what many posters with the opposite opinion have presented. You have yourself stated that you have little statistical evidence (or otherwise, even) for your claim that Webb is not as deserving of chances as Ponder. Let's just take a look at the post in question:

disaacs wrote:
Unfortunately, (and I'm willing to admit) I have no strong support to justify my dismissal of Webb other than to say that I just don't see it. But, there are some statistics that suggest it, however. Webb's completion percentage is lower, his turnover percentage is significantly higher, and never passed for more than 200 yds (and also has 1 game of under 100 yds in which he played the great majority of the game). About the only things he has proven to be better at is rushing and his sack rate is lower (by about 2%).

To me, it's similar to when I finally gave up on Tarvaris. It's nothing statistically borne-out, it's visual evidence.


How can you seriously use these as points of evidence when Webb has started so few games? Do these statistics even carry any weight comparatively when Ponder has had more starts than Webb? I would say absolutely not.

On top of this, I think it is rather audacious to generalize the holders of the opposing opinion the way you have. Most of us do not settle with "Ponder sucks." Oddly enough, though, you seem to have come to a similar conclusion in regard to Webb. Just see the portions I've highlighted in bold. You have precisely just said, "I just don't see it." So you can collect "visual evidence" but others cannot? I'm struggling to find any validity to your argument at all, frankly. There's nothing substantive here.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
I know exactly what you are talking about, but I do not think it is a lost cause at all, and that's something I've discovered over the past few days. Some posters have gotten angry with you and me over our assessments, I acknowledge that. But a few posters have, in the past few days, PM'ed me apologies for their behavior. That has truly taught me something. There are a few bad apples on every forum on the Web, but there are also plenty of well-meaning people who can own up to how they've treated others in the minority opinion. This proves to me that there is a point to all this and it has truly been a very pleasant and welcome surprise.

oh just talk about football.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
I know exactly what you are talking about, but I do not think it is a lost cause at all, and that's something I've discovered over the past few days. Some posters have gotten angry with you and me over our assessments, I acknowledge that. But a few posters have, in the past few days, PM'ed me apologies for their behavior. That has truly taught me something. There are a few bad apples on every forum on the Web, but there are also plenty of well-meaning people who can own up to how they've treated others in the minority opinion. This proves to me that there is a point to all this and it has truly been a very pleasant and welcome surprise.

oh just talk about football.


This is pretty rude, man. I'm commending others because I have been surprised by how good many of them have been to me personally over the past few days.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
I know exactly what you are talking about, but I do not think it is a lost cause at all, and that's something I've discovered over the past few days. Some posters have gotten angry with you and me over our assessments, I acknowledge that. But a few posters have, in the past few days, PM'ed me apologies for their behavior. That has truly taught me something. There are a few bad apples on every forum on the Web, but there are also plenty of well-meaning people who can own up to how they've treated others in the minority opinion. This proves to me that there is a point to all this and it has truly been a very pleasant and welcome surprise.

oh just talk about football.

This is pretty rude, man. I'm commending others because I have been surprised by how good many of them have been to me personally over the past few days.

just talk about football.

by "commending others" you are furthering your own point, which you could just do by talking about football.

we don't discuss other members. we don't characterize other members. if you want others to stop doing it, then you need to stop too.

just talk football. it's not about how good you feel because of PM's you received.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
it's not about how good you feel because of PM's you received.


That's a very kind thought. Thanks.

Both my posts were "about football," to boot. So they're here for everyone to read in full. I don't know why you tell others not to derail threads when this is what you've done.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the post of yours i quoted was not about football. plain and simple.

maybe your previous ones were, but that one was not, and it's important to not let derailed conversations like that continue. that's why i spoke up.

c'mon man, you and i have a great relationship between us, you know that. none of what i am writing is to be taken personally, it's for the good of the forum to keep threads on their subject topics, not pat on the back type posting about PM's you've received and how they make you feel good.

we need to stop the characterizing of other posters and their opinions, we need to stop putting people in to groups and camps.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
the post of yours i quoted was not about football. plain and simple.

maybe your previous ones were, but that one was not, and it's important to not let derailed conversations like that continue. that's why i spoke up.

c'mon man, you and i have a great relationship between us, you know that. none of what i am writing is to be taken personally, it's for the good of the forum to keep threads on their subject topics, not pat on the back type posting about PM's you've received and how they make you feel good.

we need to stop the characterizing of other posters and their opinions, we need to stop putting people in to groups and camps.


I know, we are good with each other. Let's both cool off a bit and examine this.

That was in response to milanb's post, a post that was not about football. How else does one respond to that? I thought this was supposed to be a community.

You are singling me out here unfairly. If you want to get people to stop creating groups and camps, you should tell it to all involved. disaacs himself, for example, does this grouping in the post I quoted.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
You are singling me out here unfairly. If you want to get people to stop creating groups and camps, you should tell it to all involved.

i did tell it to all involved, very clearly. quit taking things personally.

vike daddy wrote:
we need to stop the characterizing of other posters and their opinions, we need to stop putting people in to groups and camps.

it's not "you," it's "we." plural. everyone. inclusive.

i've stated my piece here and am done doing so. if you need to have the last word, then take it.
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this providence


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of the opinion that neither Ponder or Webb will ever be legitimate starters in this league. I believe that's a reasonable assessment at this point and it's one that should have been realized when both were drafted.

As I said before, the Vikings need to ride out the year with Ponder so they can best decide their course of action in the offseason. If he plays the remainder of the year like he's played to this point, there's no excuse for the Vikings to go into next season without a very real option to push for the starting position in 2013; if not outright replace him.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would consider making a QB change as early as the 2013 offseason, but not right now, you have to stay the course.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no need for anyone to have "the last word." No worries.

Quoting my response to disaacs so it doesn't get lost in the previous exchange an he can get to it:

PurpleMugen wrote:
disaacs wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
^So you see my point, then? Your dismissal of Webb is the same as many other people's dismissal of Ponder - exactly the same. Yet such talk concerning Ponder has not been well received by you in the past. Should we not claim you are writing off Webb too soon and that you don't actually know whether he will be the answer yet or not, then? Sounds perfectly reasonable and fair to me.


I do see your point to a certain extent, but I believe that I have also provided more justification beyond what others have stated in their dismissal of Ponder (and it's also not the main point I was initially making). Several others have essentially just stated that Ponder sucks and will always suck, I just know it. I've provided an explanation of what I've seen from Webb that suggests to me that he doesn't warrant an opportunity over Ponder at this point. There's nothing in Webb's history that suggests that he does. It's not just simply "Ponder sucks, let's see what the next guy does."


On the contrary, I don't see any of this. I have found your justification, if anything, less substantive than what many posters with the opposite opinion have presented. You have yourself stated that you have little statistical evidence (or otherwise, even) for your claim that Webb is not as deserving of chances as Ponder. Let's just take a look at the post in question:

disaacs wrote:
Unfortunately, (and I'm willing to admit) I have no strong support to justify my dismissal of Webb other than to say that I just don't see it. But, there are some statistics that suggest it, however. Webb's completion percentage is lower, his turnover percentage is significantly higher, and never passed for more than 200 yds (and also has 1 game of under 100 yds in which he played the great majority of the game). About the only things he has proven to be better at is rushing and his sack rate is lower (by about 2%).

To me, it's similar to when I finally gave up on Tarvaris. It's nothing statistically borne-out, it's visual evidence.


How can you seriously use these as points of evidence when Webb has started so few games? Do these statistics even carry any weight comparatively when Ponder has had more starts than Webb? I would say absolutely not.

On top of this, I think it is rather audacious to generalize the holders of the opposing opinion the way you have. Most of us do not settle with "Ponder sucks." Oddly enough, though, you seem to have come to a similar conclusion in regard to Webb. Just see the portions I've highlighted in bold. You have precisely just said, "I just don't see it." So you can collect "visual evidence" but others cannot? I'm struggling to find any validity to your argument at all, frankly. There's nothing substantive here.

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AQuintus


Joined: 16 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this providence wrote:
and it's one that should have been realized when both were drafted.


To be fair, Webb was drafted to be a WR, and the team really, really, really should have stuck with that.
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Cantwin1


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AQuintus wrote:
this providence wrote:
and it's one that should have been realized when both were drafted.


To be fair, Webb was drafted to be a WR, and the team really, really, really should have stuck with that.


No doubt. Let's not forget that Webb was nearly (should have been) cut before the season because he was playing so bad. Sage out played Webb by a large margin. I would be in favor of cutting Webb now and bringing Sage back. If the Vikes decide they need to make a change at QB I would go with Sage or MBT. Webb at QB does nothing for me as a QB, much like Tebow. Give Ponder the rest of the season and move on if he continues to suck, but there's nobody on the roster who gives me much hope for the future so we should be looking outside of our team be it draft or FA or trade.
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moss_is_1


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should quit trying to "hide" Ponder and let him throw all over the place the last 7 weeks to see if we need to explore drafting a QB high in April. Throw everything in the playbook out there and see if he can handle the job.
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