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fishfan4life


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No way Sean smith gave up a few catches last sunday he is terrible lol. I mean what CB gives up catches in this league
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DOLFAN016


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.


The stat was provided by PFF (Pro Football Focus). My assumption is that the deep routes on Sunday were assigned to the safties, but I'd have to look at the tape. PFF looks at every single snap in the NFL and breaks down the performance of every single player on each of those snaps. Have they been 100% accurate? No. I've found inconsistencies. However, they give you a good idea that Smith hasn't been as bad as many would have you believe. He probably isn't as good as some would say either.

My frustration comes from the fact that many of our fans seem to focus on many of the better players and their bad performances and call for change. Where have the threads been that show how bad Incognito has been? Where are the threads calling for his replacement? Or how about Koa Misi? He's been lack luster in the pass rush area and I don't hear him being called for on the chopping block.

This has been a trend. People complaining about Brandon Marshall's drops last year ignore that he dominated and went to the probowl. Its just a weird thing that happens in this forum. I don't get it at all. I'm trying to call some attention to it here. That's all.
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bpastermack


Joined: 17 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.


That wasn't Smith's man or his zone. He should have picked it, but just the fact that he was near the ball was pretty awesome. He came from all the way on the other deep third.
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SUG


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
This is where I disagree with you guys. Good QB's and OC's can scheme around elite speed edge rushers. Marino did it for years.

Real pressure up the middle....the kind that collaspes the pocket so the QB has to retreat into the arms of the edge rusher.....now that is the sort of stuff even an lucky Luck can't escape from.

So no, I'll keep Starks, trade Solia, and take a true penetrating disruptive DT.


Yes OCs & QBs can scheme around an elite speed rusher but that still doesn't account for C. Wake coming in simultaneously nor does it address showing 2 edge blitzers and then sending in Burnette up the middle.

As for collapsing up the middle .... I like it when facing pocket passers like Brady, Manning or Schaub.
But the down fall of that is facing athletic guys like Rodgers - RG -or Tanney can make you pay dearly by rolling out.

I just happen to like the job our existing front 4 guys are doing & I'm certain we could actually improve
the pressure "up the middle" by creating fear off of the other edge.

I mean we rolled into wk # 8 somewher between #3 & #5 Defensively I believe.

my 2 cents

sug
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DOLFAN016


Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bpastermack wrote:
DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.



That wasn't Smith's man or his zone. He should have picked it, but just the fact that he was near the ball was pretty awesome. He came from all the way on the other deep third.


You're absolutely correct. SC covered this exact play on the show this morning and Smith dropped in the deep zone to replace the safety that came up to double Reggie Wayne's dog route. Therefore he was in excellent position, but just made a bad play on the ball. It was more "Luck" for the Colts than anything.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry. I wouldn't call anything about that play 'awesome'. At all. His ball skills range from sub-par to pathetic.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.


The stat was provided by PFF (Pro Football Focus). My assumption is that the deep routes on Sunday were assigned to the safties, but I'd have to look at the tape. PFF looks at every single snap in the NFL and breaks down the performance of every single player on each of those snaps. Have they been 100% accurate? No. I've found inconsistencies. However, they give you a good idea that Smith hasn't been as bad as many would have you believe. He probably isn't as good as some would say either.

My frustration comes from the fact that many of our fans seem to focus on many of the better players and their bad performances and call for change. Where have the threads been that show how bad Incognito has been? Where are the threads calling for his replacement? Or how about Koa Misi? He's been lack luster in the pass rush area and I don't hear him being called for on the chopping block.

This has been a trend. People complaining about Brandon Marshall's drops last year ignore that he dominated and went to the probowl. Its just a weird thing that happens in this forum. I don't get it at all. I'm trying to call some attention to it here. That's all.


You say people are talking negatively about Sean Smith and obviously you're talking about me because I don't see a lot of people criticizing him at all. I'm playing Devil's advocate but I'm also trying to remind people of what's important. Let me explain...

Sean Smith is not a bad guy. I watch interviews with players for several reasons but one them is to see which guys sound somewhat intelligent. Sean Smith does. I like that. I value intelligence more than some other things which is probably part of why I like Philbin as a coach and guys like Bush as a player.

I'll defend those guys. My sneaking suspicion is that Ireland is a smart guy, too. I certainly irritates me when people are condescending and act as though he's definitely not for example.

With Sean Smith though I have to say something which I think is relevant. We play a bend-but-don't-break style of defense. I can live with that. It's what kept us in the game. We forced Vinatieri into kicking two long FGs and he missed them. If you know anything about AV, it's that he sucks outside of 50 yards.

That's smart. If Adam V is kicking 50+ yarders we're in good shape. If we can hold good QBs and good offenses to around 23 points, we're in good shape.

What bothers me about Sean Smith is not the fact that he'll give up a ton of yardage to guys I've never heard of before OR that he'll drop potentially game-winning balls that elite CBs would catch OR that he'll drop easy picks that would simply help our cause.

What bothers me is that we want big, physical CBs in the redzone because when we do get down there we're going to rely on those guys A LOT to make sure that we don't give up anything easy (jam those slants) and we don't automatically lose to bigger WRs (fades to the pylon).

I don't NEED turnovers from Sean Smith, I just need him to be reliable in the redzone. I don't NEED him to be batting 1,000 with deep balls. I need him reliable in the red zone. He already has the field playing to his advantage down there but he's not going to be able to win with the help of other players or with scheme.

Sean Smith needs to be able to win 1-on-1's in the red zone and thus far he's NOT proven he can do that. Vontae rarely gave up those types of scores. He was physical on the line and went up to intercept (or at least break up) those high, lofted passes.

Sean Smith needs to stop being so cowardly on the LoS and he needs to develop the ability to break up those lofted passes.

That's what folks should be concerned about. This is why he's average. As smart as he is, as well-positioned as he is, if he's a liability in the red zone then he's losing the most important battles.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.


The stat was provided by PFF (Pro Football Focus). My assumption is that the deep routes on Sunday were assigned to the safties, but I'd have to look at the tape. PFF looks at every single snap in the NFL and breaks down the performance of every single player on each of those snaps. Have they been 100% accurate? No. I've found inconsistencies. However, they give you a good idea that Smith hasn't been as bad as many would have you believe. He probably isn't as good as some would say either.

My frustration comes from the fact that many of our fans seem to focus on many of the better players and their bad performances and call for change. Where have the threads been that show how bad Incognito has been? Where are the threads calling for his replacement? Or how about Koa Misi? He's been lack luster in the pass rush area and I don't hear him being called for on the chopping block.

This has been a trend. People complaining about Brandon Marshall's drops last year ignore that he dominated and went to the probowl. Its just a weird thing that happens in this forum. I don't get it at all. I'm trying to call some attention to it here. That's all.


You say people are talking negatively about Sean Smith and obviously you're talking about me because I don't see a lot of people criticizing him at all. I'm playing Devil's advocate but I'm also trying to remind people of what's important. Let me explain...

Sean Smith is not a bad guy. I watch interviews with players for several reasons but one them is to see which guys sound somewhat intelligent. Sean Smith does. I like that. I value intelligence more than some other things which is probably part of why I like Philbin as a coach and guys like Bush as a player.

I'll defend those guys. My sneaking suspicion is that Ireland is a smart guy, too. I certainly irritates me when people are condescending and act as though he's definitely not for example.

With Sean Smith though I have to say something which I think is relevant. We play a bend-but-don't-break style of defense. I can live with that. It's what kept us in the game. We forced Vinatieri into kicking two long FGs and he missed them. If you know anything about AV, it's that he sucks outside of 50 yards.

That's smart. If Adam V is kicking 50+ yarders we're in good shape. If we can hold good QBs and good offenses to around 23 points, we're in good shape.

What bothers me about Sean Smith is not the fact that he'll give up a ton of yardage to guys I've never heard of before OR that he'll drop potentially game-winning balls that elite CBs would catch OR that he'll drop easy picks that would simply help our cause.

What bothers me is that we want big, physical CBs in the redzone because when we do get down there we're going to rely on those guys A LOT to make sure that we don't give up anything easy (jam those slants) and we don't automatically lose to bigger WRs (fades to the pylon).

I don't NEED turnovers from Sean Smith, I just need him to be reliable in the redzone. I don't NEED him to be batting 1,000 with deep balls. I need him reliable in the red zone. He already has the field playing to his advantage down there but he's not going to be able to win with the help of other players or with scheme.

Sean Smith needs to be able to win 1-on-1's in the red zone and thus far he's NOT proven he can do that. Vontae rarely gave up those types of scores. He was physical on the line and went up to intercept (or at least break up) those high, lofted passes.

Sean Smith needs to stop being so cowardly on the LoS and he needs to develop the ability to break up those lofted passes.

That's what folks should be concerned about. This is why he's average. As smart as he is, as well-positioned as he is, if he's a liability in the red zone then he's losing the most important battles.


The discussion is all over the place. At first it was that Sean Smith had hands of stone and wasn't elite because he doesn't have high INT numbers. I then pointed out that neither does Darrell Revis and that high INT numbers often come when opposing QB's are picking on you because you suck as a CB. INT's are not the measurement of a solid CB. At least not alone.

Then the discussion was about how Sean Smith let so many big plays happen, specifically in the Colts game. I pointed out that he hadn't and got supporting info for that, and also showed that he game no passes up this season over 20+ yards, at least according to PFF.

Now we are talking about his goaline work and his LoS physicality.


It sounds to me that you simply don't think he's good, despite evidence to the contrary. Despite coaches who work with him every day seeing him as one of the bright young stars of the team. Despite PFF's ranking him in the top 15 in the league. I don't know what to tell you. Maybe he should move to safety.

Why we are even talking about Smith when Nolan Carroll is a far bigger liability and we have no depth behind him is beyond me. This is a clear trend in this forum. The high profile, better than average players are the focus, while the guys not getting it done, and our lack of depth is largely ignored. No disrespect intended at all, phinmun, I just don't get the fixation on players that clearly are better than their counterparts on our own team. Why aren't we talking about the deficiencies we see in Jonathon Martin and Nolan Carroll. Those seem like much bigger issues to our 4 losses, than Jake Long and Sean Smith. That has been and is my larger point.
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.


The stat was provided by PFF (Pro Football Focus). My assumption is that the deep routes on Sunday were assigned to the safties, but I'd have to look at the tape. PFF looks at every single snap in the NFL and breaks down the performance of every single player on each of those snaps. Have they been 100% accurate? No. I've found inconsistencies. However, they give you a good idea that Smith hasn't been as bad as many would have you believe. He probably isn't as good as some would say either.

My frustration comes from the fact that many of our fans seem to focus on many of the better players and their bad performances and call for change. Where have the threads been that show how bad Incognito has been? Where are the threads calling for his replacement? Or how about Koa Misi? He's been lack luster in the pass rush area and I don't hear him being called for on the chopping block.

This has been a trend. People complaining about Brandon Marshall's drops last year ignore that he dominated and went to the probowl. Its just a weird thing that happens in this forum. I don't get it at all. I'm trying to call some attention to it here. That's all.


Welcome to the fins fanbase!!

We've heard the Long discussion.
At the start of the year it was pass rush and Wake.
Reggie and the ground game.

It is what it is. Get rid of those 3 and then lets see what this team has. (my bet, less wins)
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
DOLFAN016 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


I'm not saying your wrong, but who was credits with Luck's heave between 2 guys last week that resulted in a TD? I know if Smith would've turned the right way he would've had a pick.


The stat was provided by PFF (Pro Football Focus). My assumption is that the deep routes on Sunday were assigned to the safties, but I'd have to look at the tape. PFF looks at every single snap in the NFL and breaks down the performance of every single player on each of those snaps. Have they been 100% accurate? No. I've found inconsistencies. However, they give you a good idea that Smith hasn't been as bad as many would have you believe. He probably isn't as good as some would say either.

My frustration comes from the fact that many of our fans seem to focus on many of the better players and their bad performances and call for change. Where have the threads been that show how bad Incognito has been? Where are the threads calling for his replacement? Or how about Koa Misi? He's been lack luster in the pass rush area and I don't hear him being called for on the chopping block.

This has been a trend. People complaining about Brandon Marshall's drops last year ignore that he dominated and went to the probowl. Its just a weird thing that happens in this forum. I don't get it at all. I'm trying to call some attention to it here. That's all.


Welcome to the fins fanbase!!

We've heard the Long discussion.
At the start of the year it was pass rush and Wake.
Reggie and the ground game.

It is what it is. Get rid of those 3 and then lets see what this team has. (my bet, less wins)


Great point, Clutch. I hadn't even thought of those.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
The discussion is all over the place. At first it was that Sean Smith had hands of stone and wasn't elite because he doesn't have high INT numbers. I then pointed out that neither does Darrell Revis and that high INT numbers often come when opposing QB's are picking on you because you suck as a CB. INT's are not the measurement of a solid CB. At least not alone.

Then the discussion was about how Sean Smith let so many big plays happen, specifically in the Colts game. I pointed out that he hadn't and got supporting info for that, and also showed that he game no passes up this season over 20+ yards, at least according to PFF.

Now we are talking about his goaline work and his LoS physicality.


It sounds to me that you simply don't think he's good, despite evidence to the contrary. Despite coaches who work with him every day seeing him as one of the bright young stars of the team. Despite PFF's ranking him in the top 15 in the league. I don't know what to tell you. Maybe he should move to safety.

Why we are even talking about Smith when Nolan Carroll is a far bigger liability and we have no depth behind him is beyond me. This is a clear trend in this forum. The high profile, better than average players are the focus, while the guys not getting it done, and our lack of depth is largely ignored. No disrespect intended at all, phinmun, I just don't get the fixation on players that clearly are better than their counterparts on our own team. Why aren't we talking about the deficiencies we see in Jonathon Martin and Nolan Carroll. Those seem like much bigger issues to our 4 losses, than Jake Long and Sean Smith. That has been and is my larger point.



If I'm not doing a good enough job getting the point across, I apologize but don't put words in my mouth. I have a vision of who I think Sean Smith is and I am confident that if every post I ever made on him was shown together they would correctly overlap.

Let's start with a basic question. What's good about Sean Smith? I would say 2 things: size and smarts. He's going to be in good position and his size will be an attribute (if used properly) in certain environments.

What's bad about Sean Smith? I would say he lacks the make-up speed some CBs have. I would say he's softer at the LoS than some better CBs. A good route-runner can get him turned around fairly easily. In the past he's had a habit of missing tackles. And finally, he doesn't have what most people term "ball skills," which I would sum up as instincts related to going after the ball, catching it, deflecting it or whatever else. In summation, he's softer and less athletic than one might assume.

Okay, so he's big and smart. Those are pluses. He's not as physical or agile as he needs to be in many situations though. So let's say he's 2 out of 4. The lack of ball skills can be a tie-breaker.


Have I ever said that Sean Smith sucks? Probably. Likely in response to someone saying he was top 10 in the league or after a frustrating game where he was constantly targeted and beaten.

Do I think he sucks? No. I like that he's smart and I think he can be an asset. I want him on this team. I just don't think he's an above average guy. I think he's unique because of his intelligence and size but he lacks the things that would make him exceptional. Most CBs are small-ish, agile, speedy guys like Jimmy Wilson. But they never amount to anything.

The tragedy with Sean Smith is that he has intelligence (very hard to find) and even size (rare) but he seems to lack the play-making ability to ever live up to his potential. A similar guy, Antonio Cromartie, just seems to play 100x tougher and more physical which I think is the difference. If Cromartie (dumb as a brick) can succeed, then why can't the smart guy? Revis is smart? He lacks some of the elite physical gifts, even. BUT, he plays physically when he has to. He has no problem at the LoS or making tackles. Sean Smith is inconsistent with both those things at best.

He just needs to play with bigger balls. That's all I'm saying.

Re-sign him though. I honestly don't want to see us without him. I would've preferred Vontae Davis who seemed to be more reckless but who had the toughness and instincts I'm talking about. I'm glad to have Sean Smith, though, make no bones about it.

I'm just not afraid to say what I think about a guy where I do have some opinions. Don't mistake my willingness to type for my love/hate of anyone though. Typing is easy. I can do that. I'll type 5000 words about a 7th round pick bust, doesn't mean I care anything about him.

Sean Smith I do care about. I honesty hope he gets resigned.
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Kaiowas05


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
This is where I disagree with you guys. Good QB's and OC's can scheme around elite speed edge rushers. Marino did it for years.

Real pressure up the middle....the kind that collaspes the pocket so the QB has to retreat into the arms of the edge rusher.....now that is the sort of stuff even an lucky Luck can't escape from.

So no, I'll keep Starks, trade Solia, and take a true penetrating disruptive DT.


Odrick.... Starks as your bigger guy but JO definitely showed last year he has that
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Judson49


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


Merc, do you recall the play where Chaz Schillens toasted him & Sanchez had his usual 'accuracy of a six year old girl' issue resulting in an incompletion which could have easily been a TD? Wasn't there also a play Sunday whereby he turned totally the wrong way and got lucky with a drop?

I think the problem with the Sean Smith/Jake Long debates is that people tend to nail their opinions early and refuse to budge, and (in some cases) wildly exaggerate the players worth.

Sean Smith is playing much, much better this season than he has before, but he had a way to go (in my opinion!). Problem is, he has a couple of good games & his best buddy Omar throws around the term "shutdown corner" and it spreads like wildfire.

Sean Smith is not a problem on this team, he is (hopefully) part of the solution, but he's no shutdown, number 1 CB and shouldn't be counted on to be such.


Last edited by Judson49 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judson49 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
So I see some of the Sean Smith bitching is back.

Here's a fun little stat:

Sean Smith has been targeted deep (over 20 yards in the air) ten times this year but has yet to allow a catch from that range.

Carry on.


Merc, do you recall the play where Chaz Schillens toasted him & Sanchez had his usual 'accuracy of a six year old girl' issue resulting in an incompletion which could have easily been a TD? Wasn't there also a play Sunday whereby he turned totally and got lucky with a drop?

I think the problem with the Sean Smith/Jake Long debates is that people tend to nail their opinions and early and refuse to budge, and (in some cases) wildly exaggerate the players worth.

Sean Smith is playing much, much better this season than he has before, but he had a way to go (in my opinion!). Problem is, he has a couple of good games & his best buddy Omar throws around the term "shutdown corner" and it spreads like wildfire.

Sean Smith is not a problem on this team, he is (hopefully) part of the solution, but he's no shutdown, number 1 CB and shouldn't be counted on to be such.


Sure, there have been plays where Sean Smith has gotten lucky. No question about it at all. Every player in the league is effected in part by luck. Smith is no different. I suspect you and I view Smith about the same today. I agree he is not a shutdown guy, but I've also seen him shutdown some of the best this season. He is capable, but consistency is where he needs to improve, that and playmaking. He neither sucks, nor is he elite. He has holes in his game, but as you said he is not the problem.
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