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The loss of Orakpo is affecting Kerrigan
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:

The line up I gave you would produce some pressure of the edge with Jenkins and Cofield stopping the run up the middle. Then next year you have Orakpo taken Bowen place and you now have two young and fast pass rusher's of the edge and big bodies in the middle to stop the run. Same way we mix things up in the 3-4 we could do the same in the 4-3 as far as guys moving around playing the DT or DE position. What matter's the most is consistent hands in the dirt rushing the QB and IMO the rush comes quicker in the 4-3 than the 3-4.
Bowen is 6'5, 310. He's not a pass rusher off the edge in any scheme. he is an interior DL. Bowen isn't going to give us anything in terms of pass rushing from a 4-3 DE position. He didn't play that in college, didn't play that at Dallas and wasn't brought here to be an edge pass rusher.

The line you set up would be awesome for stopping the run on 1st downs and short yardage, like what the seahawks do with Bryant as a LDE, Branch and Mebane in the middle.

If we went with your line up, we could do that. Then I'd bring in Jackson or Wilson to be a pass rushing specialist opposite Kerrigan on definite passing downs.

This "having their hands in the dirt" thing is so over blown. When they are standing they are already closer to being in their pass rush move than if they had their hand "in the dirt".

The pass rush from the 3-4 is usualy better than from a 4-3 when you have the correct players to run it. There are more pass rushing combinations you can have vs an offenses protection scheme in the 3-4. Again our problem is injuries, not scheme. The steelers, ravens, packers, 49ers and many other teams run a 3-4 and put constant pressure on the qb. The steelers put a lot of pressure on Griffin and they did today vs the giants.

The 4-3 DL is better vs the run usually because of those "hands in the dirt" and the two big DTs in the middle.



This having the hands in the dirt is what got Orakpo and Andre Carter double digit sack each in Orakpo's rookie year. Also look at what the Panther's did to us today and some of the other teams on the league like the Seahawks, Gaints, and Bears to name a few. We can't stop the run nor the pass so with my line up we both agree at least the run would be contained and we may have a chance at getting to the QB on passing downs aka something we can't do now.
dude! Come on!! Ughh *sigh*

We can't get consistent pressure on the qb because we are missing our best pass rusher period! Our sacks and pressures are down as a unit because teams Don't have to double team any of our healthy pass rushers on every snap or scheme to block them. Kerrigan says he gets chipped a little more but not too much different than last year. Orakpo was almost always chipped or doubled in 2010 and last year. Our current guys are having problems winning one on one match ups because teams don't have to worry about focusing on a pass rusher like Orakpo. Last year he made it easier for the other guys in the front 7. He and Carriker's presence is greatly missed.

You want proof? Last year, in the 3-4 We were top 5 most of the year in sacks and finished tied for 10th with a few teams when the season was done. we did this with Orakpo and Carriker healthy in the 3-4. That's the best I can remember us being in the previous 20 years when we ran a 4-3. Twisted Evil

Oh and without Orakpo and Carriker we are 21st in sacks... Go figure Confused

In Orakpo's rookie year, he had 4 sacks vs the Jamarcus Russell led raiders in, that one game skewed his sack total for the year. He also wasn't double teamed that year, Carter was. Teams schemed to stop Carter then, not Orakpo.

Orakpo has been the same 8 to 11 sack guy no matter which scheme he's been in as a Washington redskin.

As to your comment about the run, until last week vs the steelers we hadnt given up a 100 yd rusher. Today when we faced the three headed monster that is the panthers running attack (Newton, Williams, Stewart) before those two games we had done pretty well vs the run. We've been better than last years D vs the run. Our problem this year has been vs the pass. We are currently ranked 9th in the nfl vs the run, last year we finished 18th overall.
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Slateman


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerrigan would play linebacker in a 4-3
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slateman wrote:
Kerrigan would play linebacker in a 4-3
no he would not. He's a de. When he was coming out in the draft , 21atw is right, he was projected to be a 4-3 DE more than a 3-4 OLB. He reminds me so much of Kevin Greene though. I think he's done good at 3-4 OLB and will only get better,
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21 ALL THE WAY


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:

The line up I gave you would produce some pressure of the edge with Jenkins and Cofield stopping the run up the middle. Then next year you have Orakpo taken Bowen place and you now have two young and fast pass rusher's of the edge and big bodies in the middle to stop the run. Same way we mix things up in the 3-4 we could do the same in the 4-3 as far as guys moving around playing the DT or DE position. What matter's the most is consistent hands in the dirt rushing the QB and IMO the rush comes quicker in the 4-3 than the 3-4.
Bowen is 6'5, 310. He's not a pass rusher off the edge in any scheme. he is an interior DL. Bowen isn't going to give us anything in terms of pass rushing from a 4-3 DE position. He didn't play that in college, didn't play that at Dallas and wasn't brought here to be an edge pass rusher.

The line you set up would be awesome for stopping the run on 1st downs and short yardage, like what the seahawks do with Bryant as a LDE, Branch and Mebane in the middle.

If we went with your line up, we could do that. Then I'd bring in Jackson or Wilson to be a pass rushing specialist opposite Kerrigan on definite passing downs.

This "having their hands in the dirt" thing is so over blown. When they are standing they are already closer to being in their pass rush move than if they had their hand "in the dirt".

The pass rush from the 3-4 is usualy better than from a 4-3 when you have the correct players to run it. There are more pass rushing combinations you can have vs an offenses protection scheme in the 3-4. Again our problem is injuries, not scheme. The steelers, ravens, packers, 49ers and many other teams run a 3-4 and put constant pressure on the qb. The steelers put a lot of pressure on Griffin and they did today vs the giants.

The 4-3 DL is better vs the run usually because of those "hands in the dirt" and the two big DTs in the middle.



This having the hands in the dirt is what got Orakpo and Andre Carter double digit sack each in Orakpo's rookie year. Also look at what the Panther's did to us today and some of the other teams on the league like the Seahawks, Gaints, and Bears to name a few. We can't stop the run nor the pass so with my line up we both agree at least the run would be contained and we may have a chance at getting to the QB on passing downs aka something we can't do now.
dude! Come on!! Ughh *sigh*

We can't get consistent pressure on the qb because we are missing our best pass rusher period! Our sacks and pressures are down as a unit because teams Don't have to double team any of our healthy pass rushers on every snap or scheme to block them. Kerrigan says he gets chipped a little more but not too much different than last year. Orakpo was almost always chipped or doubled in 2010 and last year. Our current guys are having problems winning one on one match ups because teams don't have to worry about focusing on a pass rusher like Orakpo. Last year he made it easier for the other guys in the front 7. He and Carriker's presence is greatly missed.

You want proof? Last year, in the 3-4 We were top 5 most of the year in sacks and finished tied for 10th with a few teams when the season was done. we did this with Orakpo and Carriker healthy in the 3-4. That's the best I can remember us being in the previous 20 years when we ran a 4-3. Twisted Evil

Oh and without Orakpo and Carriker we are 21st in sacks... Go figure Confused

In Orakpo's rookie year, he had 4 sacks vs the Jamarcus Russell led raiders in, that one game skewed his sack total for the year. He also wasn't double teamed that year, Carter was. Teams schemed to stop Carter then, not Orakpo.

Orakpo has been the same 8 to 11 sack guy no matter which scheme he's been in as a Washington redskin.

As to your comment about the run, until last week vs the steelers we hadnt given up a 100 yd rusher. Today when we faced the three headed monster that is the panthers running attack (Newton, Williams, Stewart) before those two games we had done pretty well vs the run. We've been better than last years D vs the run. Our problem this year has been vs the pass. We are currently ranked 9th in the nfl vs the run, last year we finished 18th overall.



*Ugh Ugh Ugh* sigh Dude you come on, this freaking 3-4 is not working here plain and simple. Teams are not afraid of our pass rush with or without Orakpo as much as they could be with us in a 4-3. You can agree or disagree but nothing you say or anybody else says will make me think otherwise. You can defend our lame [inappropriate/removed] HC and DC all you but I won't.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:

The line up I gave you would produce some pressure of the edge with Jenkins and Cofield stopping the run up the middle. Then next year you have Orakpo taken Bowen place and you now have two young and fast pass rusher's of the edge and big bodies in the middle to stop the run. Same way we mix things up in the 3-4 we could do the same in the 4-3 as far as guys moving around playing the DT or DE position. What matter's the most is consistent hands in the dirt rushing the QB and IMO the rush comes quicker in the 4-3 than the 3-4.
Bowen is 6'5, 310. He's not a pass rusher off the edge in any scheme. he is an interior DL. Bowen isn't going to give us anything in terms of pass rushing from a 4-3 DE position. He didn't play that in college, didn't play that at Dallas and wasn't brought here to be an edge pass rusher.

The line you set up would be awesome for stopping the run on 1st downs and short yardage, like what the seahawks do with Bryant as a LDE, Branch and Mebane in the middle.

If we went with your line up, we could do that. Then I'd bring in Jackson or Wilson to be a pass rushing specialist opposite Kerrigan on definite passing downs.

This "having their hands in the dirt" thing is so over blown. When they are standing they are already closer to being in their pass rush move than if they had their hand "in the dirt".

The pass rush from the 3-4 is usualy better than from a 4-3 when you have the correct players to run it. There are more pass rushing combinations you can have vs an offenses protection scheme in the 3-4. Again our problem is injuries, not scheme. The steelers, ravens, packers, 49ers and many other teams run a 3-4 and put constant pressure on the qb. The steelers put a lot of pressure on Griffin and they did today vs the giants.

The 4-3 DL is better vs the run usually because of those "hands in the dirt" and the two big DTs in the middle.



This having the hands in the dirt is what got Orakpo and Andre Carter double digit sack each in Orakpo's rookie year. Also look at what the Panther's did to us today and some of the other teams on the league like the Seahawks, Gaints, and Bears to name a few. We can't stop the run nor the pass so with my line up we both agree at least the run would be contained and we may have a chance at getting to the QB on passing downs aka something we can't do now.
dude! Come on!! Ughh *sigh*

We can't get consistent pressure on the qb because we are missing our best pass rusher period! Our sacks and pressures are down as a unit because teams Don't have to double team any of our healthy pass rushers on every snap or scheme to block them. Kerrigan says he gets chipped a little more but not too much different than last year. Orakpo was almost always chipped or doubled in 2010 and last year. Our current guys are having problems winning one on one match ups because teams don't have to worry about focusing on a pass rusher like Orakpo. Last year he made it easier for the other guys in the front 7. He and Carriker's presence is greatly missed.

You want proof? Last year, in the 3-4 We were top 5 most of the year in sacks and finished tied for 10th with a few teams when the season was done. we did this with Orakpo and Carriker healthy in the 3-4. That's the best I can remember us being in the previous 20 years when we ran a 4-3. Twisted Evil

Oh and without Orakpo and Carriker we are 21st in sacks... Go figure Confused

In Orakpo's rookie year, he had 4 sacks vs the Jamarcus Russell led raiders in, that one game skewed his sack total for the year. He also wasn't double teamed that year, Carter was. Teams schemed to stop Carter then, not Orakpo.

Orakpo has been the same 8 to 11 sack guy no matter which scheme he's been in as a Washington redskin.

As to your comment about the run, until last week vs the steelers we hadnt given up a 100 yd rusher. Today when we faced the three headed monster that is the panthers running attack (Newton, Williams, Stewart) before those two games we had done pretty well vs the run. We've been better than last years D vs the run. Our problem this year has been vs the pass. We are currently ranked 9th in the nfl vs the run, last year we finished 18th overall.


Don't you think part of the reason we have such a good run defense is the fact our pass defense is giving up yards at a historical rate? Teams don't run against us because everyone is wide open when they throw.
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21 ALL THE WAY


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lavar703 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:

The line up I gave you would produce some pressure of the edge with Jenkins and Cofield stopping the run up the middle. Then next year you have Orakpo taken Bowen place and you now have two young and fast pass rusher's of the edge and big bodies in the middle to stop the run. Same way we mix things up in the 3-4 we could do the same in the 4-3 as far as guys moving around playing the DT or DE position. What matter's the most is consistent hands in the dirt rushing the QB and IMO the rush comes quicker in the 4-3 than the 3-4.
Bowen is 6'5, 310. He's not a pass rusher off the edge in any scheme. he is an interior DL. Bowen isn't going to give us anything in terms of pass rushing from a 4-3 DE position. He didn't play that in college, didn't play that at Dallas and wasn't brought here to be an edge pass rusher.

The line you set up would be awesome for stopping the run on 1st downs and short yardage, like what the seahawks do with Bryant as a LDE, Branch and Mebane in the middle.

If we went with your line up, we could do that. Then I'd bring in Jackson or Wilson to be a pass rushing specialist opposite Kerrigan on definite passing downs.

This "having their hands in the dirt" thing is so over blown. When they are standing they are already closer to being in their pass rush move than if they had their hand "in the dirt".

The pass rush from the 3-4 is usualy better than from a 4-3 when you have the correct players to run it. There are more pass rushing combinations you can have vs an offenses protection scheme in the 3-4. Again our problem is injuries, not scheme. The steelers, ravens, packers, 49ers and many other teams run a 3-4 and put constant pressure on the qb. The steelers put a lot of pressure on Griffin and they did today vs the giants.

The 4-3 DL is better vs the run usually because of those "hands in the dirt" and the two big DTs in the middle.



This having the hands in the dirt is what got Orakpo and Andre Carter double digit sack each in Orakpo's rookie year. Also look at what the Panther's did to us today and some of the other teams on the league like the Seahawks, Gaints, and Bears to name a few. We can't stop the run nor the pass so with my line up we both agree at least the run would be contained and we may have a chance at getting to the QB on passing downs aka something we can't do now.
dude! Come on!! Ughh *sigh*

We can't get consistent pressure on the qb because we are missing our best pass rusher period! Our sacks and pressures are down as a unit because teams Don't have to double team any of our healthy pass rushers on every snap or scheme to block them. Kerrigan says he gets chipped a little more but not too much different than last year. Orakpo was almost always chipped or doubled in 2010 and last year. Our current guys are having problems winning one on one match ups because teams don't have to worry about focusing on a pass rusher like Orakpo. Last year he made it easier for the other guys in the front 7. He and Carriker's presence is greatly missed.

You want proof? Last year, in the 3-4 We were top 5 most of the year in sacks and finished tied for 10th with a few teams when the season was done. we did this with Orakpo and Carriker healthy in the 3-4. That's the best I can remember us being in the previous 20 years when we ran a 4-3. Twisted Evil

Oh and without Orakpo and Carriker we are 21st in sacks... Go figure Confused

In Orakpo's rookie year, he had 4 sacks vs the Jamarcus Russell led raiders in, that one game skewed his sack total for the year. He also wasn't double teamed that year, Carter was. Teams schemed to stop Carter then, not Orakpo.

Orakpo has been the same 8 to 11 sack guy no matter which scheme he's been in as a Washington redskin.

As to your comment about the run, until last week vs the steelers we hadnt given up a 100 yd rusher. Today when we faced the three headed monster that is the panthers running attack (Newton, Williams, Stewart) before those two games we had done pretty well vs the run. We've been better than last years D vs the run. Our problem this year has been vs the pass. We are currently ranked 9th in the nfl vs the run, last year we finished 18th overall.


Don't you think part of the reason we have such a good run defense is the fact our pass defense is giving up yards at a historical rate? Teams don't run against us because everyone is wide open when they throw.


Bet he comes back with some excuse or a way to defend our defense.
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lavar703 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:

The line up I gave you would produce some pressure of the edge with Jenkins and Cofield stopping the run up the middle. Then next year you have Orakpo taken Bowen place and you now have two young and fast pass rusher's of the edge and big bodies in the middle to stop the run. Same way we mix things up in the 3-4 we could do the same in the 4-3 as far as guys moving around playing the DT or DE position. What matter's the most is consistent hands in the dirt rushing the QB and IMO the rush comes quicker in the 4-3 than the 3-4.
Bowen is 6'5, 310. He's not a pass rusher off the edge in any scheme. he is an interior DL. Bowen isn't going to give us anything in terms of pass rushing from a 4-3 DE position. He didn't play that in college, didn't play that at Dallas and wasn't brought here to be an edge pass rusher.

The line you set up would be awesome for stopping the run on 1st downs and short yardage, like what the seahawks do with Bryant as a LDE, Branch and Mebane in the middle.

If we went with your line up, we could do that. Then I'd bring in Jackson or Wilson to be a pass rushing specialist opposite Kerrigan on definite passing downs.

This "having their hands in the dirt" thing is so over blown. When they are standing they are already closer to being in their pass rush move than if they had their hand "in the dirt".

The pass rush from the 3-4 is usualy better than from a 4-3 when you have the correct players to run it. There are more pass rushing combinations you can have vs an offenses protection scheme in the 3-4. Again our problem is injuries, not scheme. The steelers, ravens, packers, 49ers and many other teams run a 3-4 and put constant pressure on the qb. The steelers put a lot of pressure on Griffin and they did today vs the giants.

The 4-3 DL is better vs the run usually because of those "hands in the dirt" and the two big DTs in the middle.



This having the hands in the dirt is what got Orakpo and Andre Carter double digit sack each in Orakpo's rookie year. Also look at what the Panther's did to us today and some of the other teams on the league like the Seahawks, Gaints, and Bears to name a few. We can't stop the run nor the pass so with my line up we both agree at least the run would be contained and we may have a chance at getting to the QB on passing downs aka something we can't do now.
dude! Come on!! Ughh *sigh*

We can't get consistent pressure on the qb because we are missing our best pass rusher period! Our sacks and pressures are down as a unit because teams Don't have to double team any of our healthy pass rushers on every snap or scheme to block them. Kerrigan says he gets chipped a little more but not too much different than last year. Orakpo was almost always chipped or doubled in 2010 and last year. Our current guys are having problems winning one on one match ups because teams don't have to worry about focusing on a pass rusher like Orakpo. Last year he made it easier for the other guys in the front 7. He and Carriker's presence is greatly missed.

You want proof? Last year, in the 3-4 We were top 5 most of the year in sacks and finished tied for 10th with a few teams when the season was done. we did this with Orakpo and Carriker healthy in the 3-4. That's the best I can remember us being in the previous 20 years when we ran a 4-3. Twisted Evil

Oh and without Orakpo and Carriker we are 21st in sacks... Go figure Confused

In Orakpo's rookie year, he had 4 sacks vs the Jamarcus Russell led raiders in, that one game skewed his sack total for the year. He also wasn't double teamed that year, Carter was. Teams schemed to stop Carter then, not Orakpo.

Orakpo has been the same 8 to 11 sack guy no matter which scheme he's been in as a Washington redskin.

As to your comment about the run, until last week vs the steelers we hadnt given up a 100 yd rusher. Today when we faced the three headed monster that is the panthers running attack (Newton, Williams, Stewart) before those two games we had done pretty well vs the run. We've been better than last years D vs the run. Our problem this year has been vs the pass. We are currently ranked 9th in the nfl vs the run, last year we finished 18th overall.


Don't you think part of the reason we have such a good run defense is the fact our pass defense is giving up yards at a historical rate? Teams don't run against us because everyone is wide open when they throw.


This is exactly true. While teams may start to show run and see how well we do, its really a tease to actually put the ball in the air. Look, this league has gone to a pass happy league and we still think that we can stop the run and win. Nope.

I AM GOING TO SAY THIS ONE TIME. RYAN KERRIGAN WILL BE A 4-3 DE. PERIOD.

Orakpo and Kerrigan would be better suited to play in the dirt than rushing from the edge. Its not how they can get a push. When you put a guy who is rushing with a full head of steam and a lower center of gravity towards a lineman who is playing almost fully upright, the DE will have leverage.

This is how Orakpo and Kerrigan actually play better because their motor and strength can push the OL back.

Having then standing up and rushing that way, they lose their leverage. Its really physics.

The option with the 3-4 is to allow for more stretch plays happen and allow the OLB's to get in the backfield and disrupt the running game. That is not the strength of our OLB's.

Our personnel are set up for the 4-3. Carriker could play into a 5 technique and so could Bowen. JMO, but I am in favor of going back to the 4-3.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, Kerrigan and Orakpo could do very well in the 4-3, but we saw the team in the 4-3 formations fairly extensively at the end of 2011. If you go back to the 4-3, forget about Carriker and Bowen - it really isn't that simple to go back. What I suggest is getting more snaps with 4 DL, and that would be happening if Orakpo was healthy.

PFF has London Fletcher with 14 missed tackles before the Panthers game.

Clearly the defensive coaching staff is going to be changed next year, but Shanahan is right: it's about showing what you can offer. You are a professional who is paid to execute, so let's see who is executing from here on.
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Look, Kerrigan and Orakpo could do very well in the 4-3, but we saw the team in the 4-3 formations fairly extensively at the end of 2011. If you go back to the 4-3, forget about Carriker and Bowen - it really isn't that simple to go back. What I suggest is getting more snaps with 4 DL, and that would be happening if Orakpo was healthy.

PFF has London Fletcher with 14 missed tackles before the Panthers game.

Clearly the defensive coaching staff is going to be changed next year, but Shanahan is right: it's about showing what you can offer. You are a professional who is paid to execute, so let's see who is executing from here on.


Switching back to the 4-3 is not just a snap of the fingers. I understand that. But is Bowen that big of a necessity? Could he not switch to a 5 technique? Could Carriker not do the same and switch to a 3 technique? Alexander and Robinson could play the OLB or move Riley to the Will until Fletcher retires.

Its not as difficult as you might think, but to me Carriker and Bowen are not irreplaceable.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Look, Kerrigan and Orakpo could do very well in the 4-3, but we saw the team in the 4-3 formations fairly extensively at the end of 2011. If you go back to the 4-3, forget about Carriker and Bowen - it really isn't that simple to go back. What I suggest is getting more snaps with 4 DL, and that would be happening if Orakpo was healthy.

PFF has London Fletcher with 14 missed tackles before the Panthers game.

Clearly the defensive coaching staff is going to be changed next year, but Shanahan is right: it's about showing what you can offer. You are a professional who is paid to execute, so let's see who is executing from here on.


Switching back to the 4-3 is not just a snap of the fingers. I understand that. But is Bowen that big of a necessity? Could he not switch to a 5 technique? Could Carriker not do the same and switch to a 3 technique? Alexander and Robinson could play the OLB or move Riley to the Will until Fletcher retires.

Its not as difficult as you might think, but to me Carriker and Bowen are not irreplaceable.


I would release Cofield and Bowen anyway, they're not worth what they're making. I think Carriker and Jenkins could both play well as DT in a 4-3 with Orakpo and Kerrigan rushing off the edges. I honestly think we have better personell to run a 4-3 right now than we do a 3-4, just my opinion though.
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DarrellGreen28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to go back to a 4-3 as well even though it is not happening. It'd be too difficult to switch now. Players like Jenkins, Bowen, and Carriker are a waste. Cofield is a great 4-3 DT so he'd fit. Orakpo and Kerrigan would be much better playing DE and we all know Fletcher/Riley can play MLB. But we have no OLBs and a plethora of defensive linemen made for the 3-4. We never should have made the switch in the first place.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Look, Kerrigan and Orakpo could do very well in the 4-3, but we saw the team in the 4-3 formations fairly extensively at the end of 2011. If you go back to the 4-3, forget about Carriker and Bowen - it really isn't that simple to go back. What I suggest is getting more snaps with 4 DL, and that would be happening if Orakpo was healthy.

PFF has London Fletcher with 14 missed tackles before the Panthers game.

Clearly the defensive coaching staff is going to be changed next year, but Shanahan is right: it's about showing what you can offer. You are a professional who is paid to execute, so let's see who is executing from here on.


Switching back to the 4-3 is not just a snap of the fingers. I understand that. But is Bowen that big of a necessity? Could he not switch to a 5 technique? Could Carriker not do the same and switch to a 3 technique? Alexander and Robinson could play the OLB or move Riley to the Will until Fletcher retires.

Its not as difficult as you might think, but to me Carriker and Bowen are not irreplaceable.


You are essentially rendering Carriker useless in the move, however I believe his contract is structured so as not to be a cap issue moving forward. So, yes, you can do it.

Fletcher will be released this off-season. There will be a $2.8MM cap hit, but it needed to be done because of Mara's vendetta. To rephrase, he's not making $6.2MM next year and they cannot renegotiate it without throwing a wrench into the 2014 and 2015 cap.

This front seven is finally built for the 3-4, I just cannot see Mike Shanahan abandoning it after spending three years building it.

Just for giggles:
LE - Kerrigan, Carriker
NT - Cofield, Jenkins, Neild
UT - Bowen
RE - Orakpo
SLB - Robinson
MLB - Alexander
WLB - Riley

That's how I would see the front seven next year IF a switch was made. I believe the UT position would be a serious concern, and it is arguably the most important position in a 4-3. You would have Bowen, who has never played the position, and no back-up. Carriker isn't a 4-3 UT, Jenkins is suited to a NT role, as is Neild.

lavar703 wrote:
I would release Cofield and Bowen anyway, they're not worth what they're making. I think Carriker and Jenkins could both play well as DT in a 4-3 with Orakpo and Kerrigan rushing off the edges. I honestly think we have better personell to run a 4-3 right now than we do a 3-4, just my opinion though.


You cannot cut them, it would be cap suicide. The cap hit would be 12.4MM between the two of them, and you cannot be doing that when you need to add talent and will be getting another $18MM penalty.

I don't get where the idea that Carriker can play UT is coming from, he failed at it with the Rams. If they switch, they should be trying to trade him.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
21 ALL THE WAY wrote:
Kerrigan nor Orakpo will be elite pass rusher's as LB's (at least without proper coaching) IMO, but I would say they'ed be elite pass rusher's as DE's. I know I keep bring this up but it's just because this should be so obvious to us and Mike. Rite now even with Orakpo hurt I think we could apply some pressure with a 4-3 line up with Kerrigan and Bowen as the DE's and Cofield and Jenkins as the DT's.
theyd be the same as they are as 3-4 OLBs rushing. Bowen is not an outside pass rusher in the 4-3. He'd be a DT. If we ran a 4-3 our D would look like this:

RDE: Jackson
DT: Cofield
DT: Bowen
LDE: Kerrigan

Wlb: Riley
MLB: fletcher
SLB: Alexander

Cb: Wilson, hall
S: doughty, Williams

Please tell me how that defense would be any more productive than the players we have running the 3-4?


The line up I gave you would produce some pressure of the edge with Jenkins and Cofield stopping the run up the middle. Then next year you have Orakpo taken Bowen place and you now have two young and fast pass rusher's of the edge and big bodies in the middle to stop the run. Same way we mix things up in the 3-4 we could do the same in the 4-3 as far as guys moving around playing the DT or DE position. What matter's the most is consistent hands in the dirt rushing the QB and IMO the rush comes quicker in the 4-3 than the 3-4.
Bowen is 6'5, 310. He's not a pass rusher off the edge in any scheme. he is an interior DL. Bowen isn't going to give us anything in terms of pass rushing from a 4-3 DE position. He didn't play that in college, didn't play that at Dallas and wasn't brought here to be an edge pass rusher.

The line you set up would be awesome for stopping the run on 1st downs and short yardage, like what the seahawks do with Bryant as a LDE, Branch and Mebane in the middle.

If we went with your line up, we could do that. Then I'd bring in Jackson or Wilson to be a pass rushing specialist opposite Kerrigan on definite passing downs.

This "having their hands in the dirt" thing is so over blown. When they are standing they are already closer to being in their pass rush move than if they had their hand "in the dirt".

The pass rush from the 3-4 is usualy better than from a 4-3 when you have the correct players to run it. There are more pass rushing combinations you can have vs an offenses protection scheme in the 3-4. Again our problem is injuries, not scheme. The steelers, ravens, packers, 49ers and many other teams run a 3-4 and put constant pressure on the qb. The steelers put a lot of pressure on Griffin and they did today vs the giants.

The 4-3 DL is better vs the run usually because of those "hands in the dirt" and the two big DTs in the middle.



This having the hands in the dirt is what got Orakpo and Andre Carter double digit sack each in Orakpo's rookie year. Also look at what the Panther's did to us today and some of the other teams on the league like the Seahawks, Gaints, and Bears to name a few. We can't stop the run nor the pass so with my line up we both agree at least the run would be contained and we may have a chance at getting to the QB on passing downs aka something we can't do now.
Actually Orakpo played OLB in the 4-3 his rookie year. He only moved to rush end in the nickle scheme for obvious passing downs.
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21 ALL THE WAY


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: WASHINGTON DC
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
mike23md wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Look, Kerrigan and Orakpo could do very well in the 4-3, but we saw the team in the 4-3 formations fairly extensively at the end of 2011. If you go back to the 4-3, forget about Carriker and Bowen - it really isn't that simple to go back. What I suggest is getting more snaps with 4 DL, and that would be happening if Orakpo was healthy.

PFF has London Fletcher with 14 missed tackles before the Panthers game.

Clearly the defensive coaching staff is going to be changed next year, but Shanahan is right: it's about showing what you can offer. You are a professional who is paid to execute, so let's see who is executing from here on.


Switching back to the 4-3 is not just a snap of the fingers. I understand that. But is Bowen that big of a necessity? Could he not switch to a 5 technique? Could Carriker not do the same and switch to a 3 technique? Alexander and Robinson could play the OLB or move Riley to the Will until Fletcher retires.

Its not as difficult as you might think, but to me Carriker and Bowen are not irreplaceable.


You are essentially rendering Carriker useless in the move, however I believe his contract is structured so as not to be a cap issue moving forward. So, yes, you can do it.

Fletcher will be released this off-season. There will be a $2.8MM cap hit, but it needed to be done because of Mara's vendetta. To rephrase, he's not making $6.2MM next year and they cannot renegotiate it without throwing a wrench into the 2014 and 2015 cap.

This front seven is finally built for the 3-4, I just cannot see Mike Shanahan abandoning it after spending three years building it.

Just for giggles:
LE - Kerrigan, Carriker
NT - Cofield, Jenkins, Neild
UT - Bowen
RE - Orakpo
SLB - Robinson
MLB - Alexander
WLB - Riley

That's how I would see the front seven next year IF a switch was made. I believe the UT position would be a serious concern, and it is arguably the most important position in a 4-3. You would have Bowen, who has never played the position, and no back-up. Carriker isn't a 4-3 UT, Jenkins is suited to a NT role, as is Neild.

lavar703 wrote:
I would release Cofield and Bowen anyway, they're not worth what they're making. I think Carriker and Jenkins could both play well as DT in a 4-3 with Orakpo and Kerrigan rushing off the edges. I honestly think we have better personell to run a 4-3 right now than we do a 3-4, just my opinion though.


You cannot cut them, it would be cap suicide. The cap hit would be 12.4MM between the two of them, and you cannot be doing that when you need to add talent and will be getting another $18MM penalty.

I don't get where the idea that Carriker can play UT is coming from, he failed at it with the Rams. If they switch, they should be trying to trade him.


It's called Free Agency and draft. Same way we added guys to fit the 3-4 scheme we can add guy's to fill the little holes that need to be filled in the 4-3. In this 4-3 scheme you have a massive Pass Rush and Pretty big player's in the middle to stop the run and force pressure up the middle with Cofield, Jenkins, Nield, and Bowen.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
lavar703 wrote:
I would release Cofield and Bowen anyway, they're not worth what they're making. I think Carriker and Jenkins could both play well as DT in a 4-3 with Orakpo and Kerrigan rushing off the edges. I honestly think we have better personell to run a 4-3 right now than we do a 3-4, just my opinion though.


You cannot cut them, it would be cap suicide. The cap hit would be 12.4MM between the two of them, and you cannot be doing that when you need to add talent and will be getting another $18MM penalty.

I don't get where the idea that Carriker can play UT is coming from, he failed at it with the Rams. If they switch, they should be trying to trade him.


I'm sorry Footy, I have no clue why I said Carriker. I meant Baker but I think he would only be temporary as a DT.
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