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Brown, Sendlein, Snyder - Who's out in 2013?
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Which Veteran, "Underperforming Olinemen won't be back in 2013"
Adam Snyder
55%
 55%  [ 5 ]
Levi Brown
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Lyle Sendlein
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
All of the above
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
None of the above
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 9

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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Unless Massie has a complete transformation between now and next season I don't want him starting but I'm okay with him as a backup. A lot of changes on the OL will depend on whether Kolb is kept or released. If he's cut we can go out and sign a great player like Vollmer or Albert. Keep Levi and build our interior line on days 1 & 2 of the draft. Snyder & Massie are goners. They're basically the worst two players at their positions. I guess another option is re-structuring Kolb's deal and cutting Bradley. We can create cap space that way too... I think there will be at least 3 different starters on the OL from this year to next.


AT LEAST three? That's a bet I'd take, even with Levi counting the other way.


I'm counting Levi as new. The only safe one is Colledge...


Massie probably isn't going anywhere and I all but guarantee 1 of Lyle or Snyder will be back too. 2 new guys tops IMO and that includes Levi.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Unless Massie has a complete transformation between now and next season I don't want him starting but I'm okay with him as a backup. A lot of changes on the OL will depend on whether Kolb is kept or released. If he's cut we can go out and sign a great player like Vollmer or Albert. Keep Levi and build our interior line on days 1 & 2 of the draft. Snyder & Massie are goners. They're basically the worst two players at their positions. I guess another option is re-structuring Kolb's deal and cutting Bradley. We can create cap space that way too... I think there will be at least 3 different starters on the OL from this year to next.


Ok. here's my problem. We cut Kolb and use that cash to sign a big name offensive lineman like Vollmer. Then you use day 1-2 picks to further the offensive line. All of this begs the big question....who's your quarterback?

You can't go into the season with Skelton as the unquestioned starter, he's been a near disaster this season and that's after he had to fight all offseason just to get the job. You can't get anyone decent in the draft who's ready to play and play well now because they're all high draft picks and teams like Kansas City and Jacksonville are all but guaranteed to pick ahead of you, you're gonna need to trade up to get above them. You can't spend money on a guy like Michael Vick (Even if he does come cheaper than his current pricetag) because you've spent your money on Vollmer. Can't cut Bradley to make up the difference, he's only banking 2.5 mill. And even if there is money left over from Vollmer for Vick with a Bradley cut worked in there, what do you do in 2013 when Andre Roberts is an UFA? How do you help a defense that can't stop the run? Answer is you can't. Something here HAS to give. There's simply not enough money and not enough picks to go around.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Unless Massie has a complete transformation between now and next season I don't want him starting but I'm okay with him as a backup. A lot of changes on the OL will depend on whether Kolb is kept or released. If he's cut we can go out and sign a great player like Vollmer or Albert. Keep Levi and build our interior line on days 1 & 2 of the draft. Snyder & Massie are goners. They're basically the worst two players at their positions. I guess another option is re-structuring Kolb's deal and cutting Bradley. We can create cap space that way too... I think there will be at least 3 different starters on the OL from this year to next.


Ok. here's my problem. We cut Kolb and use that cash to sign a big name offensive lineman like Vollmer. Then you use day 1-2 picks to further the offensive line. All of this begs the big question....who's your quarterback?

You can't go into the season with Skelton as the unquestioned starter, he's been a near disaster this season and that's after he had to fight all offseason just to get the job. You can't get anyone decent in the draft who's ready to play and play well now because they're all high draft picks and teams like Kansas City and Jacksonville are all but guaranteed to pick ahead of you, you're gonna need to trade up to get above them. You can't spend money on a guy like Michael Vick (Even if he does come cheaper than his current pricetag) because you've spent your money on Vollmer. Can't cut Bradley to make up the difference, he's only banking 2.5 mill. And even if there is money left over from Vollmer for Vick with a Bradley cut worked in there, what do you do in 2013 when Andre Roberts is an UFA? How do you help a defense that can't stop the run? Answer is you can't. Something here HAS to give. There's simply not enough money and not enough picks to go around.


Well cutting Kolb, Snyder & Bradley alone saves about 75M. If we can't get a FA like Vick or someone we keep Kolb and make him restructure. Cut Bradley & Snyder anyway and sign Vollmer. Then go OL & Defense with our first 3 picks...

If we get Vick we sign a lesser OT than Vollmer but still an upgrade at RT... Levi plays LT and Massie/Potter back up both OT spots...

What's Rod's email?
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Unless Massie has a complete transformation between now and next season I don't want him starting but I'm okay with him as a backup. A lot of changes on the OL will depend on whether Kolb is kept or released. If he's cut we can go out and sign a great player like Vollmer or Albert. Keep Levi and build our interior line on days 1 & 2 of the draft. Snyder & Massie are goners. They're basically the worst two players at their positions. I guess another option is re-structuring Kolb's deal and cutting Bradley. We can create cap space that way too... I think there will be at least 3 different starters on the OL from this year to next.


Ok. here's my problem. We cut Kolb and use that cash to sign a big name offensive lineman like Vollmer. Then you use day 1-2 picks to further the offensive line. All of this begs the big question....who's your quarterback?

You can't go into the season with Skelton as the unquestioned starter, he's been a near disaster this season and that's after he had to fight all offseason just to get the job. You can't get anyone decent in the draft who's ready to play and play well now because they're all high draft picks and teams like Kansas City and Jacksonville are all but guaranteed to pick ahead of you, you're gonna need to trade up to get above them. You can't spend money on a guy like Michael Vick (Even if he does come cheaper than his current pricetag) because you've spent your money on Vollmer. Can't cut Bradley to make up the difference, he's only banking 2.5 mill. And even if there is money left over from Vollmer for Vick with a Bradley cut worked in there, what do you do in 2013 when Andre Roberts is an UFA? How do you help a defense that can't stop the run? Answer is you can't. Something here HAS to give. There's simply not enough money and not enough picks to go around.


Well cutting Kolb, Snyder & Bradley alone saves about 75M. If we can't get a FA like Vick or someone we keep Kolb and make him restructure. Cut Bradley & Snyder anyway and sign Vollmer. Then go OL & Defense with our first 3 picks...

If we get Vick we sign a lesser OT than Vollmer but still an upgrade at RT... Levi plays LT and Massie/Potter back up both OT spots...

What's Rod's email?


Ya, it's 75 million if you don't factor in bonus money and you don't factor in the cap penalties for cutting those players. If you do (Which you need to), it shrinks down to about 41-45 million and that 41-45 million is spread over 4 years. Take the high side of 45 million in case I'm a little off and you got about 11 million saved for 2013. That doesn't get you very far. Vick's due to make 14 million next season. Even if we got him for HALF of that, a pretty low number, that's 7 mill. Now you've only got 4 million added onto whatever we had before, which by my count isn't much. Squeezing Vollmer into that can be done but we've got other free agents. LaRod Stephens-Howling is an UFA. If you want him back (And we do, held talks with him previously) there's 2-4 million added to the balance sheet just on the low end. Paris Lenon's a FA, we gonna let him walk and cut Stewart Bradley? If so, now we absolutely need to draft an ILB and draft 1 really early, no questions asked. There's 1 less high end pick to devote to the line. If you re-sign him, there's another 3-5 million on the balance sheet. That'll mean somebody else has to go. Maybe in this scenario we skip Michael Vick and restructure Kevin Kolb's deal like you mentioned but there are problems with that. A restructure slims that 45 number down even further because he's still going to be paid a decent wage. And then, at the end of the day, we're still playing an average QB.

I haven't even begun to talk about our 2014 issues, where we have 6-7 starters ALL due to be UFAs. Andre won't be cheap. OBS won't be cheap. Kerry Rhodes won't break the bank but he'll be paid well. You can let Beanie walk but now we need another RB. You can let William Gay walk but now you need a CB. Reggie Walker will be a RFA and remember, you've cut Stewart Bradley and may let Paris Lenon walk plus he's a special teams captain. He's gonna own us in negotiations should we start them because we'll be desperate.

This isn't nearly as easy as people think it is.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Unless Massie has a complete transformation between now and next season I don't want him starting but I'm okay with him as a backup. A lot of changes on the OL will depend on whether Kolb is kept or released. If he's cut we can go out and sign a great player like Vollmer or Albert. Keep Levi and build our interior line on days 1 & 2 of the draft. Snyder & Massie are goners. They're basically the worst two players at their positions. I guess another option is re-structuring Kolb's deal and cutting Bradley. We can create cap space that way too... I think there will be at least 3 different starters on the OL from this year to next.


Ok. here's my problem. We cut Kolb and use that cash to sign a big name offensive lineman like Vollmer. Then you use day 1-2 picks to further the offensive line. All of this begs the big question....who's your quarterback?

You can't go into the season with Skelton as the unquestioned starter, he's been a near disaster this season and that's after he had to fight all offseason just to get the job. You can't get anyone decent in the draft who's ready to play and play well now because they're all high draft picks and teams like Kansas City and Jacksonville are all but guaranteed to pick ahead of you, you're gonna need to trade up to get above them. You can't spend money on a guy like Michael Vick (Even if he does come cheaper than his current pricetag) because you've spent your money on Vollmer. Can't cut Bradley to make up the difference, he's only banking 2.5 mill. And even if there is money left over from Vollmer for Vick with a Bradley cut worked in there, what do you do in 2013 when Andre Roberts is an UFA? How do you help a defense that can't stop the run? Answer is you can't. Something here HAS to give. There's simply not enough money and not enough picks to go around.


Well cutting Kolb, Snyder & Bradley alone saves about 75M. If we can't get a FA like Vick or someone we keep Kolb and make him restructure. Cut Bradley & Snyder anyway and sign Vollmer. Then go OL & Defense with our first 3 picks...

If we get Vick we sign a lesser OT than Vollmer but still an upgrade at RT... Levi plays LT and Massie/Potter back up both OT spots...

What's Rod's email?


Ya, it's 75 million if you don't factor in bonus money and you don't factor in the cap penalties for cutting those players. If you do (Which you need to), it shrinks down to about 41-45 million and that 41-45 million is spread over 4 years. Take the high side of 45 million in case I'm a little off and you got about 11 million saved for 2013. That doesn't get you very far. Vick's due to make 14 million next season. Even if we got him for HALF of that, a pretty low number, that's 7 mill. Now you've only got 4 million added onto whatever we had before, which by my count isn't much. Squeezing Vollmer into that can be done but we've got other free agents. LaRod Stephens-Howling is an UFA. If you want him back (And we do, held talks with him previously) there's 2-4 million added to the balance sheet just on the low end. Paris Lenon's a FA, we gonna let him walk and cut Stewart Bradley? If so, now we absolutely need to draft an ILB and draft 1 really early, no questions asked. There's 1 less high end pick to devote to the line. If you re-sign him, there's another 3-5 million on the balance sheet. That'll mean somebody else has to go. Maybe in this scenario we skip Michael Vick and restructure Kevin Kolb's deal like you mentioned but there are problems with that. A restructure slims that 45 number down even further because he's still going to be paid a decent wage. And then, at the end of the day, we're still playing an average QB.

I haven't even begun to talk about our 2014 issues, where we have 6-7 starters ALL due to be UFAs. Andre won't be cheap. OBS won't be cheap. Kerry Rhodes won't break the bank but he'll be paid well. You can let Beanie walk but now we need another RB. You can let William Gay walk but now you need a CB. Reggie Walker will be a RFA and remember, you've cut Stewart Bradley and may let Paris Lenon walk plus he's a special teams captain. He's gonna own us in negotiations should we start them because we'll be desperate.

This isn't nearly as easy as people think it is.


These would all be terrific points if the alternative wasn't staying the course and continuing to suck while getting our QB's killed. Desperate times call for desperate measures and we might have the worst OL in NFL history. I also subtracted the signing bonus' on that original number.

Vick > anybody who could realistically have at QB next season...
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
I'm counting Levi as new. The only safe one is Colledge...


I am going to straight up guarantee right now that Bobby Massie is our starting RT next season and Lyle Sendlein is our starting C next year.

Guarantee it.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
I'm counting Levi as new. The only safe one is Colledge...


I am going to straight up guarantee right now that Bobby Massie is our starting RT next season and Lyle Sendlein is our starting C next year.

Guarantee it.


Then we'll have another season of terrible offense...

Guarantee it.
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DJ_Fka


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If our OC is the same next year, we are screwed.

OL being good or not, play calling is abysmal.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Unless Massie has a complete transformation between now and next season I don't want him starting but I'm okay with him as a backup. A lot of changes on the OL will depend on whether Kolb is kept or released. If he's cut we can go out and sign a great player like Vollmer or Albert. Keep Levi and build our interior line on days 1 & 2 of the draft. Snyder & Massie are goners. They're basically the worst two players at their positions. I guess another option is re-structuring Kolb's deal and cutting Bradley. We can create cap space that way too... I think there will be at least 3 different starters on the OL from this year to next.


Ok. here's my problem. We cut Kolb and use that cash to sign a big name offensive lineman like Vollmer. Then you use day 1-2 picks to further the offensive line. All of this begs the big question....who's your quarterback?

You can't go into the season with Skelton as the unquestioned starter, he's been a near disaster this season and that's after he had to fight all offseason just to get the job. You can't get anyone decent in the draft who's ready to play and play well now because they're all high draft picks and teams like Kansas City and Jacksonville are all but guaranteed to pick ahead of you, you're gonna need to trade up to get above them. You can't spend money on a guy like Michael Vick (Even if he does come cheaper than his current pricetag) because you've spent your money on Vollmer. Can't cut Bradley to make up the difference, he's only banking 2.5 mill. And even if there is money left over from Vollmer for Vick with a Bradley cut worked in there, what do you do in 2013 when Andre Roberts is an UFA? How do you help a defense that can't stop the run? Answer is you can't. Something here HAS to give. There's simply not enough money and not enough picks to go around.


Well cutting Kolb, Snyder & Bradley alone saves about 75M. If we can't get a FA like Vick or someone we keep Kolb and make him restructure. Cut Bradley & Snyder anyway and sign Vollmer. Then go OL & Defense with our first 3 picks...

If we get Vick we sign a lesser OT than Vollmer but still an upgrade at RT... Levi plays LT and Massie/Potter back up both OT spots...

What's Rod's email?


Ya, it's 75 million if you don't factor in bonus money and you don't factor in the cap penalties for cutting those players. If you do (Which you need to), it shrinks down to about 41-45 million and that 41-45 million is spread over 4 years. Take the high side of 45 million in case I'm a little off and you got about 11 million saved for 2013. That doesn't get you very far. Vick's due to make 14 million next season. Even if we got him for HALF of that, a pretty low number, that's 7 mill. Now you've only got 4 million added onto whatever we had before, which by my count isn't much. Squeezing Vollmer into that can be done but we've got other free agents. LaRod Stephens-Howling is an UFA. If you want him back (And we do, held talks with him previously) there's 2-4 million added to the balance sheet just on the low end. Paris Lenon's a FA, we gonna let him walk and cut Stewart Bradley? If so, now we absolutely need to draft an ILB and draft 1 really early, no questions asked. There's 1 less high end pick to devote to the line. If you re-sign him, there's another 3-5 million on the balance sheet. That'll mean somebody else has to go. Maybe in this scenario we skip Michael Vick and restructure Kevin Kolb's deal like you mentioned but there are problems with that. A restructure slims that 45 number down even further because he's still going to be paid a decent wage. And then, at the end of the day, we're still playing an average QB.

I haven't even begun to talk about our 2014 issues, where we have 6-7 starters ALL due to be UFAs. Andre won't be cheap. OBS won't be cheap. Kerry Rhodes won't break the bank but he'll be paid well. You can let Beanie walk but now we need another RB. You can let William Gay walk but now you need a CB. Reggie Walker will be a RFA and remember, you've cut Stewart Bradley and may let Paris Lenon walk plus he's a special teams captain. He's gonna own us in negotiations should we start them because we'll be desperate.

This isn't nearly as easy as people think it is.


These would all be terrific points if the alternative wasn't staying the course and continuing to suck while getting our QB's killed. Desperate times call for desperate measures and we might have the worst OL in NFL history. I also subtracted the signing bonus' on that original number.

Vick > anybody who could realistically have at QB next season...


Bolded: Then you didn't do your math right if you added signing bonuses and unpaid bonuses.

Maybe Vick's better than the guys we have now. Maybe. At his current level of play that's kind of a laugher but maybe he will be an upgrade. I'm simply asking how you're going to pay for everything. Yet to hear a realistic answer. You're trying to have uptown taste on a shoe string budget and it simply doesn't work.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ_Fka wrote:
If our OC is the same next year, we are screwed.

OL being good or not, play calling is abysmal.


I don't fully agree. Khodder has outlined numerous plays that better players (Or in most cases, better quarterbacks) would have made. Can't blame Miller for that.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a look at the 49ers game. It is depressing to watch our offensive line just not execute in the running game.

The big 5 yard loss the LSH had at one stage. You leave Jeff King in a 1 v 1 blocking situation with Ray McDonald? Why?

Another tackle for loss had Colledge pulling, he pulls right past the LB shooting an inside gap (By inside gap, I mean inside where Colledge was going, the defnder game through the 7 or 9 gap) who makes the tackle.

The same can be said in the passing game. Watching the opposition line with for an obvious blitz between RG and RT and then watch the RG block left and the RT block right, just opening up a gap for the blitzer to come through and we rely on solely the RB to pick up the blitzing LB? Come on.
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younggun1273


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Had a look at the 49ers game. It is depressing to watch our offensive line just not execute in the running game.

The big 5 yard loss the LSH had at one stage. You leave Jeff King in a 1 v 1 blocking situation with Ray McDonald? Why?

Another tackle for loss had Colledge pulling, he pulls right past the LB shooting an inside gap (By inside gap, I mean inside where Colledge was going, the defnder game through the 7 or 9 gap) who makes the tackle.

The same can be said in the passing game. Watching the opposition line with for an obvious blitz between RG and RT and then watch the RG block left and the RT block right, just opening up a gap for the blitzer to come through and we rely on solely the RB to pick up the blitzing LB? Come on.


That has been a frequent thing to see too where we see blockers come by unblocked and we are left with LSH trying to stop a lineman with a head of steam.

The important question at this point in the season is: has this unit improved after 8 games? It's hard to say yes, even with Ohrnberger outplaying Snyder.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No imagination Champ! Are you guys really that conservative to suggest we don't replace the worst RT in the league? The OL won't fix itself. Doing the same thing over & over expecting different results is the definition of insanity!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
No imagination Champ! Are you guys really that conservative to suggest we don't replace the worst RT in the league? The OL won't fix itself. Doing the same thing over & over expecting different results is the definition of insanity!


You think we are going to replace a rookie that we just drafted in the fourth round after one season of giving him no time to develop?

That is not how the NFL works. He is also not the worst in the league right now, and if he is it is not as bad as the numbers make it sound.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
No imagination Champ! Are you guys really that conservative to suggest we don't replace the worst RT in the league? The OL won't fix itself. Doing the same thing over & over expecting different results is the definition of insanity!


You think we are going to replace a rookie that we just drafted in the fourth round after one season of giving him no time to develop?

That is not how the NFL works. He is also not the worst in the league right now, and if he is it is not as bad as the numbers make it sound.


It doesn't matter what round he was drafted in. If you can't get the job done you find somebody else. I didn't say we should cut him. Bottom line he's not an NFL caliber starting Tackle yet.
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