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Steve Spagnuolo: Needs help… or Needs to Go?
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Should Spags go or stay?
Stay
90%
 90%  [ 9 ]
Go
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 10

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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Steve Spagnuolo: Needs help… or Needs to Go? Reply with quote



We have all at some point so far this season cussed Coach Spags. If this hasn’t happened yet, just wait… odds are it will.

To say Steve Spagnuolo’s defensive scheme has been a disappointment thus far would be a major understatement. Even the coach himself questioned whether or not this defense is repairable.

Quote:
I never experienced a defense this bad and therefore I’m not quite sure where to start fixing it.


Quote:
“Its uncharted territory,” “I’m not used to this, because I’ve been blessed to be at places where we’ve played pretty good defense and we’re not doing that right now. Yet, I can’t really put my finger on it.


These are some major statements from a guy in complete control of your defensive unit. I believe Spags realizes this team defensively overall severely lacks talent. From the top down, this unit is littered with 1st round bust’s and free agent misses. The players who were once the strength of this defensive team have fallen victim of age and injury and are no longer worth the contracts there names are signed too.

This team defensively is in for a major overall this offseason; I think we have all come to realize that. The question is do we believe enough in Steve Spagnuolo allow this rebuild to be structured around his scheme or do we go in another direction.

Some would argue that this defensive performance is not Spags fault, that it’s the personnel. What we cannot forget is that Steve Spagnuolo had other opportunities outside of New Orleans but choose this team above the rest. He had to study the personnel; he had to know what was evolved in taking this job. Steve Spagnuolo was not hired to help rebuild a defense in New Orleans; Steve Spagnuolo was hired to help win a Superbowl in New Orleans. It’s safe to say that isn’t going to be the case this year. Spags is frustrated like the rest of us, I honestly believe he misjudged the overall talent level on this team but personnel weren’t the reason he hired on in New Orleans.

The Reason Spags choose NOLA was because of Sean Payton.

Sure the man wasn’t expecting Payton to be suspended for a year (don’t think anyone was) but the two are close friends and Spags hired on here because Payton’s job security in this organization was greater than that of Andy Reid’s in Philly. The two (Spags & Payton) are rumored to have a great respect for one another and I’m sure in Payton’s eyes this looked a far cry better than what he and Greg Williams relationship evolved into. Spagnuolo is a man of great faith and possesses a cool level head, the total opposite of what Williams brought to the franchise. It seemed to be an ideal fit at the time and I don’t think Payton’s mind has changed on this matter.

No one… and I mean NO ONE would love to see this team switch to the 34 defense more than I. I feel it fits the young core of our defensive personnel best and would be happier than a pig in you know what if it were to happen… but it won’t.

Sean Payton hired Steve Spagnuolo. He’s not about to use him as a scapegoat for this terrible season. Spags is a great defensive mind and I think the two will see this thing through to the end together. This team will go through a major overhaul defensively and Spagnuolo will have a big hand in the direction in which we sign and draft players on that side of the football. I see this staff breaking down each and every player on this unit and I honestly believe there will be some obvious and also surprising cuts this offseason.

The foundation of this defensive in the future is building around the physical run defense of Lofton & Jordan while developing a larger role for Akiem Hicks tremendous physical ability in the front seven. On the back end, I see some shocking changes on the horizon. I honestly do not see Roman Harper on this team in 2013. He’s a solid player and is good at what he’s good at but he simply isn’t a good fit for what Spagnuolo wants to do. As far as Malcolm Jenkins goes, he’s had a horrible season thus far but Spags sees potential in him which leads me to believe that he feels Jenkins could be a fit in his defense. The purging of overpriced aging veteran players on this defense is long overdue. Will Smith and Jonathan Vilma were great players for the Saints at one point but that time has passed and the team is moving in another direction and it’s about time.

So what’s the outlook for the 2013 New Orleans Saints defense?

I see a Spagnuolo lead youthful unit that will be improved (how could it not be) but still a few players away. This Front office and staff are facing maybe the most important offseason of the Payton era. No longer can we afford to miss out on 1st round picks or solely focus on the offensive side of the football. We will need to spend our money wisely in free agency and make sure every step we make is a step forward and not back.

This team has the potential, it has pieces (not many but some) on defense. The development of Hicks is critical to the success of this team going forward; he’s basically our 2012 1st round pick.

34 or 43 defense, regardless… this team needs to add talent and is in no room for error. The window of opportunity with Drew Brees isn’t closing but it isn’t getting any wider neither. If were still having this conversation two years from now, we will likely be discussing moving on from Brees and beginning a complete team rebuild. The man (Brees) is a great quarterback, there have been a lot of great quarterbacks but eventually they all get old. Brees will be 34 next season, it’s become obvious this defense won’t be fixed overnight. We have time, not a lot but we have some.

Maybe Sean Payton saw this coming… Maybe he knew a defensive rebuild was on the way and felt keeping the veterans around for this season gave us our best chance in his absence or maybe he just needed to see how bad things have gotten on that side of the ball to finally make some tough decisions.

Either way, I sure how he wasn’t lying when he said he was taking notes because if so every defender on this team shouldn’t feel confident in a return in 2013 but for some reason I don’t think Spagnuolo has that worry.

WHODAT
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Steve Spagnuolo: Needs help… or Needs to Go? Reply with quote

Below is my updated mock offseason with Spags onboard... My opinion is that the goal will be to get younger with more length and athletic ability.

Defensive Releases:
Will Smith, Turk McBride, Sedrick Ellis, Jonathan Vilma, Rafael Bush, Will Herring, Tom Johnson & Scott Shanle.

Defensive Free Agent Additions:

Michael Johnson DE Bengals

Johnson is the physical freak this team lacks on the edge. While he isn't an elite pass rusher, he does possess tremendous length and athletic ability and is still young and growing into the position.

Kenny Phillips SS Giants

Spagnuolo lands a safety here that he’s drafted and coached. Phillips is a good player but injuries have allowed his backup in New York to showcase his skills and might have made Phillips expendable this offseason. With the Safety position being as important as it is in Spags scheme, I’d be shocked if he didn’t take this opportunity to land Phillips.


2013 New Orleans Saints Mock Draft:

Round 1
Sheldon Richardson DT Missouri


Richardson gives the Saints a truly disruptive force on the inside who makes a living in opponets backfields. The Missouri Tiger is having a monster season and would give the Saints a dyanmic duo when paired with Akiem Hicks.

Round 2 (Saints trade their 3rd round pick and SS Roman Harper to Cincinnati to move up)
Jordan Poyer CB Oregon State


It’s obvious that this secondary could use an influx of talent and Poyer would start from day one in New Orleans. A fringe late 1st round to mid 2nd prospect, Poyer will slip some do to a lack of elite speed but he’s been well coached at Oregon State by Mike Riley and is well worth the trade up to nab him.

Round 4
Shawn Williams SS Georgia


While adding Phillips in free agency was the smart move, he is an injury risk so adding quality depth behind him is also a smart play. Williams is a physical safety with good ball skills who should find his way into the safety rotation early in his career.

Round 5
Dominique Easley DT Florida


The Saints will almost certainly allow Sedrick Ellis to walk in free agency and will be looking to add depth to the interior of their defensive line. Easley battled through injuries and position changes during his time at Florida but he’s a disruptive inside defender who knows how to pressure the pocket and would add solid depth behind Richardson.

Round 5 (Saints trade OT Charles Brown to Eagles for a 5th round pick)
Lavar Edwards DE Louisiana State


Saints trade away Brown whose been nothing short of a bust for us to the Eagles and add another pass rusher. Edwards is an underrated prospect who would have started for almost any other program outside of LSU and even outshined teammates Mingo and Montgomery at times in Baton Rouge.

Round 6
Cameron Lawrence OLB Mississippi State


Linebacker is another position where this team will look to add depth this offseason. Lawrence has been a solid player for Mississippi State throughout his career and while he isn’t anything special as far as athletically, he’s a fundamentally sound football player with high character that would give us solid depth at the SAM backer position as well as improve our kick coverage unit on special teams.


2013 New Orleans Saints Defensive Depth Chart:
LE – Cameron Jordan, Lavar Edwards, Braylon Broughton, Greg Romeus
NT – Akiem Hicks, Brodrick Bunkley
DT – Sheldon Richardson, Dominique Easley, Tyrunn Walker
RE – Michael Johnson, Junior Galette, Martez Wilson
SB – David Hawthorne, Cameron Lawrence
MB – Curtis Lofton, Ramon Humber
WB – Chris Chamberlin, Jonathan Casallis
CB – Jordan Poyer, Jabari Greer, Johnny Patrick
FS – Malcolm Jenkins, Isa Abdual-Quddus
SS – Kenny Phillips, Shawn Williams
CB – Patrick Robinson, Corey White


WHODAT
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Porter22


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The changes in our secondary would be nice, but I think we should move Jordan to UT and draft a pass rusher in the first. Could be a Werner, Montgomery, Ansah or Moore.


LDE: Werner, Galette, Romeus
NT: Hicks, Bunkley
UT: Jordan
RDE: Johnson, Wilson
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FLOODx


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A+ draft, Worm.
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sputney23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FLOODx wrote:
A+ draft, Worm.

To bad it will never happen
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FLOODx


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edwards shouldnt make it out of round 3, but Id love to have him
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potus


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have come to the realization that this defense on paper could look pretty nasty in the 3-4. With Jordon and Hicks playing the ends and Bunkley holding the middle (He played nose in Denver very well for that matter) Wilson and Junior could put up some heavy pressure. But then again this is on paper. A few months ago the defense looked solid and strived to turn the corner.

I think you got it pretty spot on Worm with what needs to happen. If they stay with the 4-3, personal will change. If the 3-4 becomes a reality, coaches will change; that simple.

Considering that this team is in win now mode, a switch to the 3-4 would be the easiest to do, only if they truly feel they have the personal to do it. Lets hope that mistake isn't made twice.

Looking at who we have, it looks like a 1 gap 3-4 would probably work best. Does anyone know who are the best coaches for that scheme?
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lifeinthaboot


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Eagles are going to look really good Monday... Embarassed
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anyone know who are the best coaches for that scheme?


Personaly... My top choice for a 1 gap 34 scheme (which I feel best suits our YOUNG DEFENSIVE CORE) is 49ers defensive line coach Jim Tomsula. With him we'd most likley land Rickey Jean Francois in Free Agency which would give us a very athletic front in this scheme with Jordan, Francois & Hicks.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone know who are the best coaches for that scheme?


Personaly... My top choice for a 1 gap 34 scheme (which I feel best suits our YOUNG DEFENSIVE CORE) is 49ers defensive line coach Jim Tomsula. With him we'd most likley land Rickey Jean Francois in Free Agency which would give us a very athletic front in this scheme with Jordan, Francois & Hicks.

That'd be a killer DL, I also don't even think Francois would be necessarily a must sign. Bunkley played NT in Denver last year and held his own, we would definitely need an OLB if we switched and with guys like Shaun Phillips and Connor Barwin set to hit free agency I think they'd be much better signings. Having a stud pass rusher is vital in a 3-4 and while I think Martez Wilson and Junior Galette would be able to adjust, I don't want to put ALL faith into it. Signing a guy like Phillips to a 2 year deal to help the transition would do wonders.
Lets just send Mickey Loomis a link a to this forum Laughing
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone know who are the best coaches for that scheme?


Personaly... My top choice for a 1 gap 34 scheme (which I feel best suits our YOUNG DEFENSIVE CORE) is 49ers defensive line coach Jim Tomsula. With him we'd most likley land Rickey Jean Francois in Free Agency which would give us a very athletic front in this scheme with Jordan, Francois & Hicks.

That'd be a killer DL, I also don't even think Francois would be necessarily a must sign. Bunkley played NT in Denver last year and held his own, we would definitely need an OLB if we switched and with guys like Shaun Phillips and Connor Barwin set to hit free agency I think they'd be much better signings. Having a stud pass rusher is vital in a 3-4 and while I think Martez Wilson and Junior Galette would be able to adjust, I don't want to put ALL faith into it. Signing a guy like Phillips to a 2 year deal to help the transition would do wonders.
Lets just send Mickey Loomis a link a to this forum Laughing


Ha, Tru Dat!!!

Actually if the switch was to take place I don't see Bunkley getting cut. Tomsula utlizes a rotation at NT in San Fran with Franois and Isaac Sopoaga. Bunkley would play the Sopoaga role of run stuffer while Fransois would continue his current role.

I gotta stop talking about this... it makes to much sense, so ya know it aint gonna happen! Wink

Thinking of the situaton in San Diego... They have an influx at OLB and Phillips is likley on his way out. He has a personal realtionship with Brees dating back to their Purdue days so I would think if the Saints would switch it would be a VERY atractive destination for him.

Lord football gods... I understand and am coming to grips with the fact that Spags is here to stay but if you can find it in your hearts, WAIT SCRATCH THAT!!!

Dear Santa

I know it's early but all I want for Christmas is...

Jim Tomsula as Saints DC and a lineup like this,

LE - Hicks
NT - Francois, Bunkley
RE - Jordan
OLB - Wilson
MLB - Lofton
MLB - Hawthorne
OLB - Phillips, Galette
CB - Robinson
FS - Jenkins
SS - Quddus
CB - Jenkins
NB - Greer

Laughing

I honestly feel Martez Wilson would excel in this 34 scheme but Galette may become a tradeable asset to aquire draft picks.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harp

Could you imagine Martez Wilson & Barkevious Mingo flying off the edge behind Jordan & Hicks in a 1 gap 34!!! Shocked

Hell... Jarvis Jones, Keke Mingo or Sam Montgomery oppsite Wilson Twisted Evil

BEAST MODE
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Harp, For those who feel were to far away for the switch...

Saints fire Spags and hire 49ers D-Line coach Jim Tomsula as new DC


OFFSEASON CUTS:
Will Smith, Jon Vilma, Turk McBride, Will Herring, Jon Casillas, Sedrick Ellis & Tom Johnson.

FREE AGENT ADDITIONS:

Mike Jenkins CB Cowboys

Quality corner with 34 experience.

Shaun Phillips OLB Chargers

Saints land veteran outside edge rusher for immediate impact and to help in the development of the younger guys.

Rickey Jean Francois NT/DE 49ers

Up and coming player and key reserve for Tomsula in San Fran, ready for expanded role in Nawlins.

Vonnie Holliday DE Cardinals

Veteran 34 LE adds solid depth and mentor to help development of Hicks and Jordan.

NFL DRAFT:

Rd 1: Sam Montgomery DE/OLB Louisiana State

Very athletic undersized physical specimen would play the Aldon Smith role in Saints 34 scheme.

(Saints trade 3rd rd pick and Roman Harper to Bengals to move up in 2nd round)
Rd 2: Matt Elam SS Florida


Physical intimidating presence with ball skills on the back end of Florida’s 34 unit, would assume same role in NOLA.

Rd 4: Nico Johnson ILB Alabama

Experience 34 inside backer in Nick Sabans defensive unit, would provide size to the inside of our linebacking core.

(Saints Trade Junior Galette to St. Louis Rams for a 4th round pick)
Rd 4: Walter Stewart DE/OLB Cincinnati


Tweener pass rusher from Cincinnati is a perfect 34 OLB prospect and would provide solid depth to our outside edge rushers.

Rd 5: Baker Steinkuhler DE Nebraska

Saints continue to add quality depth to their new defensive front behind Jordan. Stienkuhler is a big physical prototype 5 tec in the NFL.

Rd 6: Tyrann Mathieu CB/S Louisiana State

Hey, why not… take a chance! The kid has troubles but for a 6th rounder if he works out the 34 would allow him to play his Joker role that made him such a sensation in Death Valley.

2013 DEFENSIVE DEPTH CHART:
LE – Hicks, Holliday
NT – Bunkley, Francois
RE – Jordan, Stienkuler
OLB – Phillips, Stewart
ILB – Lofton, Hawthorne
ILB – Johnson, Shanle
OLB – Montgomery, Wilson
CB – Robinson, Greer, Mathieu
FS – Jenkins, Quddus
SS – Elam, Mathieu, Nelson
CB – Jenkins, White, Patrick

Now tell me we couldn’t field a solid 34![/b]
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Raves


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we continue the way we are, which I don't see a change, we will likely be picking top 5, let's be honest it just doesn't look good enough on either side right now to make a real push and it's not on Spags, it's not on Kromer, or Vitt, it's the fact that this team has gone through too much and the loss of Payton is huge.

Some teams have offenses that are fueled by strong defensive plays, some teams are just solid on both, the Saints are built to have the defense fueled by our offense clicking and hitting big plays. When our offense hits big plays it excites the defense and makes them want to make a big play as well and they are more confident that if they don't make the big play that the offense can still help them out, I think right now they are playing tight/trying too hard because the confidence in the offense isn't there like it has been in the past.

With Payton back next year, the offense should return to form which in turn will fuel the defense and let Spag's defense work better. At the same time I do agree we need to retool our defense a bit.

Cut/Let Walk
Will Smith
Turk McBride
Sedrick Ellis
Jonathan Vilma
Rafael Bush
Scott Shanle

Trade
Roman Harper for a 3rd. Harper is just a bad fit for Spags defense unless he's moved to OLB which isn't going to happen.

Signings
SS Kenny Phillips
DE Michael Johnson

Draft - I think we get the 2nd back but give up a 4th and 6th to get it.
1st-John Hankins, DT Ohio State/Star Lotulelei DT, Utah
Not sure which will be there when we pick, but considering how bad we've been and likely will finish the season, one of them will be there. Both will fill a good role of being able to plug holes and collapse the pocket from the interior with Hicks, and when in the 3-4 both would be better NT options than Bunkley.

2nd-Jordan Poyer, CB Oregon State
I like Robinson as a #2, and even as a prospective #1 option as he has progressed very well, but outside of him and Greer we have no good CB options due to injuries and Corey White getting beat like a drum as he's still young as well. Poyer would come in and give us another #1/#2 possible option, and give us some insurance due to injuries which always happens to our CBs.

3rd-Da'Rick Rogers, WR Tennessee Tech
Although he failed a drug test at Tennessee which causes him to be at Tennessee Tech, getting someone as talented as him in the 3rd round is a steal. As long as he can keep off the drugs he can become the deep threat and another threat for the Saints.

3rd-William Gholston, DE Michigan State
He's been good in run support but his pass rushing skills have been lacking this season so he's starting to tumble. He's got great athleticism just hasn't put it together. At worst he might make for a great DE/DT rotation player along the lines of Jordan add depth at multiple positions.

5th-Zaviar Gooden, OLB Missouri
Adds some more depth at OLB

Defense:

DE-Cameron Jordan/Junior Galette
DT-John Hankins/Brodrick Bunkley
DT-Akiem Hicks/William Gholston
DE-Michael Johnson/Martez Willson
OLB-Will Herring/Jonathan Casillas
MLB-Curtis Lofton
OLB-David Hawthorne/Zaviar Gooden
CB-Jabari Greer/Johnny Patrick
FS-Malcolm Jenkins/Isa Quddus
SS-Kenny Phillips/Corey White
CB-Patrick Robinson/Jordan Poyer
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all honesty... I see Spags coming back but personnel or not, NO ONE deserves a year 2 after fielding maybe the worst defense in NFL history.

As far as Hankins... I was really high on him to start the season but I don't think I'm more disappointed in a prospect more than him to this point. I really felt he'd dominate more than what he is and while he still looks like a top 20 talent, he's not top 5 in my book but thats my opinion.

Maybe I'm overthinking Hankins right now... I know he's emmensly talented and will likley go top 5 but I have such big expectations for him this year.

Anyway, Although this season has been going very bad I don't see a top 5 pick on the way!

This team will win enough to land us somewhere between 8-12. This draft really only has a handful of elite 43 defensive impact players...

Jonathan Hankins
Bjoern Werner
Jarvis Jones (he could play both)
Star Loutelei
Barkevious Mingo

I expect all these guys to be gone come our pick leaving the Saints and Spags once again trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Players like,

Manti Te'o
Sam Montgomery
Sheldon Richardson
Jonathan Jenkins

Will likley be the top rated draftable players on defense when we select and to me each one of them fit the 34 best.

I think Spags will stay, but I also think we will look back on it as a big mistake.
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