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broncosfan07
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 10108
Location: Denver
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 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone else think that DJ Williams is our new MLB |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | | Cutler06 wrote: | | Don't think Harris has rec'd DPOW honors yet has he ?? |
Chris Harris is too busy doing the dirty work.
Here's an opinion for you guys, top 5 Broncos defenders:
1. Von Miller
2. Champ Bailey
3. Chris Harris
4. Kevin Vickerson
5. Rahim Moore
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10. Wesley Woodyard |
I'd have Wesley a big higher, but I do agree with you that he isn't as good as people think.
Note that's not to say he isn't an important player to our team. He plays very well in situations but his run defense could be much improved.
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mke1010
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 1153
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| lomaxgr wrote: | | mke1010 wrote: | | Contrary to what some think, DJ Williams is a much better athlete than Brooking. |
Who is arguing this? |
Your words: but until teams start finding a way to exploit Brooking in the passing game in our base 4-3, I don't think DJ is that much of an upgrade on Brooking.
Not thinking DJ Williams is much of an upgrade over Brookings suggests there is negligible difference in athleticism. Brookings is a liability waiting to be badly exposed. In my view, the difference between Williams and Brookings will be immense. I hope I am proven wrong because that means no one will have exploited Brookings as we begin to make our push for the play offs. Cheers. |
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AKRNA
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4408
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mke1010 wrote: | | lomaxgr wrote: | | mke1010 wrote: | | Contrary to what some think, DJ Williams is a much better athlete than Brooking. |
Who is arguing this? |
Your words: but until teams start finding a way to exploit Brooking in the passing game in our base 4-3, I don't think DJ is that much of an upgrade on Brooking.
Not thinking DJ Williams is much of an upgrade over Brookings suggests there is negligible difference in athleticism. Brookings is a liability waiting to be badly exposed. In my view, the difference between Williams and Brookings will be immense. I hope I am proven wrong because that means no one will have exploited Brookings as we begin to make our push for the play offs. Cheers. |
Not really. More a different style of play. DJ is much more comfortable in space, and not too keen on the dirty work in the middle, IE, attacking OG's and Centers head on rather tha trying to go around them. Physically there;s no compaison between DJ and Brooking at this stage of their careers. DJ is obviously the better athlete.
I agree with the bolded statement from lomax. It's a dilemma you face without a true 3 down MLB. |
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Cutler06
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 9569
Location: Westminster
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else think that DJ Williams is our new MLB |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | | Cutler06 wrote: | | Don't think Harris has rec'd DPOW honors yet has he ?? |
Chris Harris is too busy doing the dirty work.
Here's an opinion for you guys, top 5 Broncos defenders:
1. Von Miller
2. Champ Bailey
3. Chris Harris
4. Kevin Vickerson
5. Rahim Moore
....
10. Wesley Woodyard |
Wow. that you'd put Vickerson at 4 shows me you have a different idea of good defenders...23 tackles, 10 of which were assisted....that's like 3 per game...no sacks, one FF give you that... and HE's top 4 ??
WW has 61 with 3 sacks.....that's like 8.5 tackles per game, on pace for 140 tackles this year. Those are tackles that got past Vickerson...guess that's where we differ. Yea yea, WW is on the outside, Vick on the inside, I get it.... but to say he's a better defender than WW....c'mon man, give credit where it's due..
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| big_palooka wrote: | | 1. The AFC West goes right through Denver. Respect to the Broncos.2. First Denver is a pretender. They are not making the playoffs, just like the Raiders. |
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howie102
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 446
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else think that DJ Williams is our new MLB |
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| Cutler06 wrote: | | AntiSuperstar wrote: | | Cutler06 wrote: | | Don't think Harris has rec'd DPOW honors yet has he ?? |
Chris Harris is too busy doing the dirty work.
Here's an opinion for you guys, top 5 Broncos defenders:
1. Von Miller
2. Champ Bailey
3. Chris Harris
4. Kevin Vickerson
5. Rahim Moore
....
10. Wesley Woodyard |
Wow. that you'd put Vickerson at 4 shows me you have a different idea of good defenders...23 tackles, 10 of which were assisted....that's like 3 per game...no sacks, one FF give you that... and HE's top 4 ??
WW has 61 with 3 sacks.....that's like 8.5 tackles per game, on pace for 140 tackles this year. Those are tackles that got past Vickerson...guess that's where we differ. Yea yea, WW is on the outside, Vick on the inside, I get it.... but to say he's a better defender than WW....c'mon man, give credit where it's due.. |
Come on, are you really basing the entirety of Vickerson's body of work on his tackle numbers? Watching him play, you must be able to acknowledge that he's been playing better than his tackle count suggests?
Almost as ridiculous as suggesting that WW is superior to CH on the basis of recieving a weekly award.
I'm not sure I'd have Vickerson quite so high, but really? You must have better arguements than tackle numbers? |
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lomaxgr
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 19791
Location: Manchester, England
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| mke1010 wrote: | | lomaxgr wrote: | | mke1010 wrote: | | Contrary to what some think, DJ Williams is a much better athlete than Brooking. |
Who is arguing this? |
Your words: but until teams start finding a way to exploit Brooking in the passing game in our base 4-3, I don't think DJ is that much of an upgrade on Brooking.
Not thinking DJ Williams is much of an upgrade over Brookings suggests there is negligible difference in athleticism. Brookings is a liability waiting to be badly exposed. In my view, the difference between Williams and Brookings will be immense. I hope I am proven wrong because that means no one will have exploited Brookings as we begin to make our push for the play offs. Cheers. |
How does me saying the drop off between DJ and Brooking at MLB having anything to do with their athleticism? Does that mean if I said Eric Decker is a better WR than Darrius Heyward-Bey, I am saying that the former is a better athlete? Clearly not ...
Like AKRNA mentioned - that clearly isn't what I meant. I am not a huge Brooking fan, but he has a much, much more physical attitude in the hole than DJ ever will have. Let me ask you - if you need a LB to fill the hole taking on a pulling Guard, who would you have - DJ or Keith Brooking?
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Cutler06
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 9569
Location: Westminster
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone else think that DJ Williams is our new MLB |
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| howie102 wrote: | | Cutler06 wrote: | | AntiSuperstar wrote: | | Cutler06 wrote: | | Don't think Harris has rec'd DPOW honors yet has he ?? |
Chris Harris is too busy doing the dirty work.
Here's an opinion for you guys, top 5 Broncos defenders:
1. Von Miller
2. Champ Bailey
3. Chris Harris
4. Kevin Vickerson
5. Rahim Moore
....
10. Wesley Woodyard |
Wow. that you'd put Vickerson at 4 shows me you have a different idea of good defenders...23 tackles, 10 of which were assisted....that's like 3 per game...no sacks, one FF give you that... and HE's top 4 ??
WW has 61 with 3 sacks.....that's like 8.5 tackles per game, on pace for 140 tackles this year. Those are tackles that got past Vickerson...guess that's where we differ. Yea yea, WW is on the outside, Vick on the inside, I get it.... but to say he's a better defender than WW....c'mon man, give credit where it's due.. |
Come on, are you really basing the entirety of Vickerson's body of work on his tackle numbers? Watching him play, you must be able to acknowledge that he's been playing better than his tackle count suggests?
Almost as ridiculous as suggesting that WW is superior to CH on the basis of recieving a weekly award.
I'm not sure I'd have Vickerson quite so high, but really? You must have better arguements than tackle numbers? |
My argument is NOT that Vickerson is bad ( certainly not the 4th best Broncos defender IMO), but to say WW IS 10th best is moronic....on pace for 140 tackles this year and Anti what to put CH ahead of him ? I DO have a problem with that...I like CH, he's a great nickel back/CB, again not taking credit away from him, just giving WW HIS DUE.
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| big_palooka wrote: | | 1. The AFC West goes right through Denver. Respect to the Broncos.2. First Denver is a pretender. They are not making the playoffs, just like the Raiders. |
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broncos67
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 18047
Location: Capitol Cit-ay
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think Anti has WW rated a bit low as well, I'd put him 6th or 7th personally, but Chris Harris is the third best player on this defense and to me it isn't a question. He has played out of his mind and is a very, very valuable piece on this team.
1. Von Miller
2. Champ Bailey
3. Chris Harris
4. Rahim Moore
5. Kevin Vickerson
6. Elvis Dumervil
7. Wesley Woodyard
8. Derek Wolfe
9. Tracy Porter
10. Mike Adams
11. Justin Bannan
That's the rankings I would give.
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champ+jay+al=SB
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 13777
Location: Beautiful Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| broncos67 wrote: | I think Anti has WW rated a bit low as well, I'd put him 6th or 7th personally, but Chris Harris is the third best player on this defense and to me it isn't a question. He has played out of his mind and is a very, very valuable piece on this team.
1. Von Miller
2. Champ Bailey
3. Chris Harris
4. Rahim Moore
5. Kevin Vickerson
6. Elvis Dumervil
7. Wesley Woodyard
8. Derek Wolfe
9. Tracy Porter
10. Mike Adams
11. Justin Bannan
That's the rankings I would give. |
Don't you have to put Tony Carter above Porter at this point?
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Twizlers
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 1805
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Idk is it just me, or has Chris Harris (gasp) outperformed Champ this year in coverage? Champ doesn't look like the same player he was last season, and although he is always right there with the receiver, his plays on the ball have significantly dropped off (specifically in 3rd down situations). He is outstanding at limiting YAC, but in my observation his coverage abilities has dropped off a lot from last year.
Feel free to disagree, but as someone who just watches the game like a normal fan and doesn't do the All-22 or in-depth analysis like most of you seem to do, this is what I have noticed.
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 4305
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care what Wesley Woodyard is on pace to get in tackles. He's not even a reliable tackler. Watch him against Pittsburgh or New England for example. The guy was getting destroyed out there. Nope, I think I have him ranked about right. He's good in coverage, not so good against the run. He's good as a backup, not so good as a starter.
Mike Adams I would put right behind Moore and Elvis Dumervil wouldn't even be in the top 12. Horrible player, I can't wait until he's off the team. He had another stinker against the Saints too, I don't even know they bothered chipping him a few times because almost never got pressure anyway. He ended up on the ground a couple of times messing up the pass rush.
If anyone's been paying attention to Wolfe the last few games he's making plenty of plays out there and he belongs in the top 10. The only rotational guys who might be worse than Dumervil on the line are Bannan and Unrein. Although I like both players better than Dumervil.
In fact we have 6 secondary players this year who have played solid or better and even the 7th Leohnard is ok as a role player.
I don't really see where there's disagreement about Vickerson unless you're not watching him. He flashes on more plays than any of our other front 7 players.
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champ+jay+al=SB
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 13777
Location: Beautiful Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | I don't care what Wesley Woodyard is on pace to get in tackles. He's not even a reliable tackler. Watch him against Pittsburgh or New England for example. The guy was getting destroyed out there. Nope, I think I have him ranked about right. He's good in coverage, not so good against the run. He's good as a backup, not so good as a starter.
Mike Adams I would put right behind Moore and Elvis Dumervil wouldn't even be in the top 12. Horrible player, I can't wait until he's off the team. He had another stinker against the Saints too, I don't even know they bothered chipping him a few times because almost never got pressure anyway. He ended up on the ground a couple of times messing up the pass rush.
If anyone's been paying attention to Wolfe the last few games he's making plenty of plays out there and he belongs in the top 10. The only rotational guys who might be worse than Dumervil on the line are Bannan and Unrein. Although I like both players better than Dumervil.
In fact we have 6 secondary players this year who have played solid or better and even the 7th Leohnard is ok as a role player.
I don't really see where there's disagreement about Vickerson unless you're not watching him. He flashes on more plays than any of our other front 7 players. |
5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles. Including the FF in the Chargers game that changed game. So horrible dude.
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 4305
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| champ+jay+al=SB wrote: | | 5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles. Including the FF in the Chargers game that changed game. So horrible dude. |
Yep, he's horrible. The New England play wasn't even good football by Dumervil. He just got lucky to be able to clean up on a busted play. Woodyard is the one who made the play there.
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champ+jay+al=SB
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 13777
Location: Beautiful Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | | champ+jay+al=SB wrote: | | 5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles. Including the FF in the Chargers game that changed game. So horrible dude. |
Yep, he's horrible. The New England play wasn't even good football by Dumervil. He just got lucky to be able to clean up on a busted play. Woodyard is the one who made the play there. |
Getting a clean up sack, that never happens.
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brassglobos
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 1749
Location: Orlando
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a long but good Q&A with DJ.
I know alot of people don't like DJ because of off the field issues, but the guy really is a team player. I've never heard him complain about his role, lack of defensive continuity, or contracts.
It will be interesting to see what role he plays when he comes back. I think and hope he will really solidify the LBs.
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