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| The Fate of Whiz |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 48162
Location: New New York
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 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| younggun1273 wrote: | | Mike Gandy, Al Johnson, Alan Faneca and Adam Snyder all have played worse for Grimm than before they got here. |
1. False - We turned a career Guard into a semi-decent LT for a couple of seasons, I would say that is a big win for Russ.
2. False - Al Johnson was terrible before we signed him and terrible here.
3. True, but - Faneca was well on his way down, he sucked his last two years with the Jets too, we were not getting an All-Pro LG here, we were getting the washed up and beaten up ex All-Pro LG who had struggled for a couple of years.
4. False - Snyder sucked when we signed him and he has sucked here. The Elbow injury has not helped matters at all either.
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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I had a lenghty response but Khodder covered it.
The Gandy and Faneca references were especially odd. No offense younggun.
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HighMotorGuy
Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 380
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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russ grimm couldn't develop top 5 pick levi brown into anything.
brandon keith was also suppose to be a athletic freak who grimm was suppose to coach up but did he ever receive any coaching? hmmmm |
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| HighMotorGuy wrote: | russ grimm couldn't develop top 5 pick levi brown into anything.
brandon keith was also suppose to be a athletic freak who grimm was suppose to coach up but did he ever receive any coaching? hmmmm |
So if Justin Bethel tanks, Ray Horton/Louis Cioffi get the axe?
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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 48162
Location: New New York
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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The more I think about the actual question posed in this thread the more my answer is becoming more and more dependant on what we do after the move.
IF we are going to fire Ken we MUST have a succession plan in place that is going to be able to be executed quickly and efficiently to get this team in a place to be able to take steps forawrds immediately.
One of the big things that would tip me towards yes would be a Norv Turner firing during the season. I don't know how it would work, but if we are going to move forward with Ray if Ken is not here then Norv IMO is going to be the best offensive mind around that would allow him to do his defensive duties as well as be a Head Coach. It would also give Ray a guy who has been an NFL Head Coach and he a lot of experience running a sideline to do just that if Ray wants to stay in the box to call plays.
If firing Ken means we lose Ray I want to stick with Ken. That is how important Ray is to this team right now.
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apollo14000
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 3749
Location: PA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnnyV wrote: | | stchamp98 wrote: | | younggun1273 wrote: | | stchamp98 wrote: | | JohnnyV wrote: | | younggun1273 wrote: | The way this team looks, they look destined to finish below 8-8 but if we can't win more than two games, he really should be fired. That would mean this team ended up going 2-10, 1-11, or 0-12 to end the year.
Whiz has to own up to not developing any QBs and Grimm has to own up to not fielding a competent offensive line in his tenure here. How long has this team struggled to create lanes in the run game and protect the QB? We can blame it on not drafting players for him, but this is a business that does not care for excuses. Grimm and Whiz have not delivered so it may be time to go. |
Grimm should receive ZERO excuses with his salary. |
This doesn't have anything to do with anything. |
Oh please.
Grimm is in his 6th year in the desert. The offensive line is still the largest weakness on the team, for the 6th straight year. No one has developed well under Grimm in 6 years. I know the Bidwills love him and you are intent on making excuses for him but he hasn't coached up the guys the has or put them in a position to do well. |
1 offensive lineman in 6 years taken before round 4. As JohnnyV was kind enough to share, our current starting LT was cut from a team in the CFL.
That's all I need to refute this. |
Sad but true. You can make the point Champ that Lyle has regressed under Grimm. We gave Lyle an extension expecting him to improve. He hasn't. Levi never really improved either.
Grimm deserves heat and may be a sacrificial lamb, but we just don't have the talent. That's it.
But on top your post Champ about resources, you're dead on. I've heard too many people say this offense is behind because we haven't invested the picks like the defense.
HELLO? Ryan Williams, Kevin Kolb, Rob Housler, Michael Floyd, Andre Roberts, Beanie Wells...all cost us a 3rd round pick or higher.
Just because we have ignored the oline, doesn't mean we've ignored the offense. They just haven't developed yet or have faded out.
Now our offensive free agents, there's a major disaster. |
This is what I meant by Whiz has built this offense outside-in. Too many pass catchers and running backs early on who can't maximize their skills without and OL and without a QB. For example, Floyd is a deep threat who can go up and snatch the ball out of the air and I still believe he's a damn good talent. What's the point of drafting him though if you don't have enough time to run a deep route? Same with Williams and Beanie. We can get more production with LSH and Powell behind a good OL then we can with Beanie and Williams behind a bad OL. |
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| khodder wrote: | The more I think about the actual question posed in this thread the more my answer is becoming more and more dependant on what we do after the move.
IF we are going to fire Ken we MUST have a succession plan in place that is going to be able to be executed quickly and efficiently to get this team in a place to be able to take steps forawrds immediately. |
For these statements here, I could not possibly AGREE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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AZPSquared
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 1283
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bryant McKinnie or Jeremy Trueblood...or both? I have heard their names in the past day or so. |
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127
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Because the O-Line is the continual topic of futility when speaking of the Cards I went back to Whiz's first year here to check the draft selections under his watch. Below is a recap of all Interior O-Linemen drafted by the Cards since 2007:
I had truly forgotten how little attention the Cards have given the O-Line on draft day. That's a grand total of six (6) interior linemen in six years. Add to that moves such as the desperation DRC giveaway, the signing of the one-year-wonder Derek Anderson and drafting Michael Floyd instead of one of the many highly rated offensive linemen available tell me that Whiz (and Rod Graves) do not have the ability to field a consistently winning team. With each loss the team will lose confidence in Whiz and by season's end there will undoubtedly be a mental mutiny. IMO, Whiz should go.
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DirtyDez
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 9678
Location: the Arizona desert
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Champ, based on what you've heard about Mike B do you think he'd fire Whiz if we finish with 5 wins or less? He's owed around 6 mil next year...
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DirtyDez wrote: | | Champ, based on what you've heard about Mike B do you think he'd fire Whiz if we finish with 5 wins or less? He's owed around 6 mil next year... |
Talked to my buddy late last night. I couldn't sleep so I called him up. Have more on it later but Mike Bidwill was the main topic of conversation.
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DirtyDez
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 9678
Location: the Arizona desert
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| stchamp98 wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | Champ, based on what you've heard about Mike B do you think he'd fire Whiz if we finish with 5 wins or less? He's owed around 6 mil next year... |
Talked to my buddy late last night. I couldn't sleep so I called him up. Have more on it later but Mike Bidwill was the main topic of conversation. |
Any info coming tonight
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SuperFlyTNT
Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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OK - I think everyone needs to slow down and take a step back here. Remember the old days where we switched head coaches every few years and sucked continually? I don't want to go back to that.
I think Whiz is a smart and steady coach that has displayed good traits, and most importantly has displayed the ability to improve as a head coach over his tenure. Note the improvement of the drafts in recent years - due to he and Rod realizing BPA was a better strategy (lacking any difference makers in previous drafts). Note the due diligence put into the hiring of one Ray Horton after he decided Bill Davis, who he hired, needed to go.
Plenty of stuff to complain about, but I don't think he fits the criteria I have for firing a head coach yet. One more year please. |
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#1CARDSFAN
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 23284
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Ken Whisenhunt: Stay Or Go? |
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| stchamp98 wrote: | Pretty simple. Do we give Whiz 1 more year to try and make this thing work or do we move on?
Let's hear it guys, I want all opinions. |
Why? Cause we lost our starting LT,Jeremy Bridges, starting a rookie at RT, both our QB's have injury problems, Our top 2 RB's on I.R.,Todd Heap,DD have all had injury problems. Vince Lombardi would have trouble competing with that many injuries on offense. |
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#1CARDSFAN
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 23284
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't read this whole thread cause most people change their minds more then the weather "but" I am tired of hearing that Russ grimm has had nothing to work with so he gets a pass. BS. If they didn't feel confident that Grimm could field a competitive O line with lower round picks they would plan their draft board accordingly. No more excuses then. Give him some flexability come draft day and see what he can do. My guess is the teams O line will still have no identity. A couple that can pass block and not run block and a couple that can run block and not pass block and the offense will yet again have no identity.
This team isn't starting to remind me of Denny Greens Cardinals teams that frustrated me so much. The game is won in the trenchs and on offense the cardinals ignore this fact. So many talented skill players on offense and no line to allow it to run proper. |
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