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MonserinNC


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 5231
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what Jay needs to succeed is:

Elite OL
Elite WR (which he has)
Elite RB (which he has)
and Elite play-calling

Only after ALL of those are covered can we start blaming Jay for the stalled drives Rolling Eyes

That kind of seems like the logic you guys are using. As I said before, simply put, an elite QB would not just let the entire offense crumble due to mediocre OL play. Like at this point we can agree the OL is at least average right? Jay has got to help his guys out and get rid of the ball.
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bkokot


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1569
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonserinNC wrote:
So what Jay needs to succeed is:

Elite OL
Elite WR (which he has)
Elite RB (which he has)
and Elite play-calling

Only after ALL of those are covered can we start blaming Jay for the stalled drives Rolling Eyes

That kind of seems like the logic you guys are using. As I said before, simply put, an elite QB would not just let the entire offense crumble due to mediocre OL play. Like at this point we can agree the OL is at least average right? Jay has got to help his guys out and get rid of the ball.


A few points. I would much rather have Jay take a sack than throw a pick. Would I rather him throw the ball away? Yes. That being said, I think his competitive nature makes him want to hold on to the ball for as long as he can to try to make a play. Does this hurt the team? Sometimes (more sacks/fumbles), but other times it turns into a big play for us. It's risk/reward.

As far as the OL goes, yes, they are average in terms of talent, I would say they are still below average in terms of consistency. I think Webb has actually had the biggest improvement in this area from last year. Chilo and Carimi are still very inconsistent in pass protection.

I think the play calling shouldn't be an issue, now that Jay can audible at the line, if he can tell he's about to get clobbered, he should change the play. I think this is an area he really needs to improve. Jay seems to be really bad at recognizing certain blitz packages and switching to a hot route.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

willyallthewei wrote:
Yes its my first post, but in any case this is how I feel about the article, and I posted it on another forum too... is that I frankly don’t care what Dan Pompeii says, everything that happened in the film as far as I can tell points to the O-line being at fault for the offense's killed drives. I watched the film for this game particularly because it was so much better in the 4th quarter than the earlier drives and I was intrigued. I watched every snap offensively up until the 4th quarter (where things got good, so I don't care much about what happened).

First off, Cutler was good that game - real good, as in he made 1 mistake that game good - for the most part he checked down to the right play and there wasn't a snap where he didn't go to the right guy according to what the defense showed him. Unequivocally, the O-line was at fault for killing drives with mistakes on key plays such as our center tripping over himself, the right guard getting pushed back 6 yards into Cutler’s face, our Left guard blocking the wrong man in a zone left play, our Center having a false start penalty, and our right guard completely whiffing on a run block. That’s just off the top of my head.

As for just how asinine Pompeii’s analysis is, all you have to do is see for yourself on that sack where Cutler seemed to have stayed in the pocket too long (he says 5 seconds). Okay, the defense was in a cover 3 rushing 4, Cutler read the coverage almost instantly after the ball is snapped, he looks straight at a wide open receiver (think it might’ve been our tightend Spaeth) – the open man on that play. This tells me Cutler read the coverage and knew where to find the open guy, who stood by himself 7 yards down the field along the right sideline. One problem, the right guard – Lance Louis - is pushed into Cutler’s face, and Cutler has no room to deliver this football. Cutler then tries to run outside the pocket because he knows if he can escape, that tightend is still open (there was no flat coverage on this particular play, they had two underneat receivers to one defender on that side of the field, that option would be there if he could only escape the pocket), before he can, he is sacked by pressure from the opposite side

You want to say Cutler should’ve thrown it away instead of trying to get a first down on second and 10? Maybe, but it is also understandable that he would try to escape the pocket to try to complete the pass for a first down because the receiver was completely uncovered. I want my quarterback trying to make the play here, its what makes good QB's great, but make no mistake, that play became a broken play the minute that lance Louis was pushed into Cutler's right arm and he had to pull the ball down before what you can clearly see is the start of his throwing motion towards the wide open receiver.

And, Lance Louis grading out #2? Lance Louis killed two drives by getting beat on critical plays and they helped him with the center every single snap after half-time.

Everyone can believe what they want, afterall, I’m just some random Bears fan on a messageboard. But from what I saw, I can tell you right now, our O-line is our weakest link, specifically, our RIGHT GUARD is our weakest link. On a high note, Webb is improving and Rachal is freaking good. And as for Cutler, he made the right read almost every play all game except for the interception throw, where he knew not to throw it but did it anyway. Probably his biggest knock, 90% of the time he's throwing into traffic intentionally, not because he didn't see a guy.

If I had to grade out our O-line from that game it would be #1.) Rachal #2.) Webb #3.) Carimi #4.) Garza #5.) Louis
Good write up. I have to say everyone seems to have their favorite whipping boy on the line. You are in the minority in taking on Louis.

I believe a lot of these problems will sort themselves out as our line continues to play together.

We have two new guys out of the five linemen so it is not going to be perfected for some time. As far as it goes now, we are doing pretty well. Better than last year.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7908
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkokot wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
So what Jay needs to succeed is:

Elite OL
Elite WR (which he has)
Elite RB (which he has)
and Elite play-calling

Only after ALL of those are covered can we start blaming Jay for the stalled drives Rolling Eyes

That kind of seems like the logic you guys are using. As I said before, simply put, an elite QB would not just let the entire offense crumble due to mediocre OL play. Like at this point we can agree the OL is at least average right? Jay has got to help his guys out and get rid of the ball.


A few points. I would much rather have Jay take a sack than throw a pick. Would I rather him throw the ball away? Yes. That being said, I think his competitive nature makes him want to hold on to the ball for as long as he can to try to make a play. Does this hurt the team? Sometimes (more sacks/fumbles), but other times it turns into a big play for us. It's risk/reward.

As far as the OL goes, yes, they are average in terms of talent, I would say they are still below average in terms of consistency. I think Webb has actually had the biggest improvement in this area from last year. Chilo and Carimi are still very inconsistent in pass protection.

I think the play calling shouldn't be an issue, now that Jay can audible at the line, if he can tell he's about to get clobbered, he should change the play. I think this is an area he really needs to improve. Jay seems to be really bad at recognizing certain blitz packages and switching to a hot route.
Jay does not have the quality that great QBs have: awareness of where the rushers are. I don't know it that can be developed but that is the biggest weakness in his game.

He needs to roll out more, too.
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blkwdw13


Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 1690
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
bkokot wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
So what Jay needs to succeed is:

Elite OL
Elite WR (which he has)
Elite RB (which he has)
and Elite play-calling

Only after ALL of those are covered can we start blaming Jay for the stalled drives Rolling Eyes

That kind of seems like the logic you guys are using. As I said before, simply put, an elite QB would not just let the entire offense crumble due to mediocre OL play. Like at this point we can agree the OL is at least average right? Jay has got to help his guys out and get rid of the ball.


A few points. I would much rather have Jay take a sack than throw a pick. Would I rather him throw the ball away? Yes. That being said, I think his competitive nature makes him want to hold on to the ball for as long as he can to try to make a play. Does this hurt the team? Sometimes (more sacks/fumbles), but other times it turns into a big play for us. It's risk/reward.

As far as the OL goes, yes, they are average in terms of talent, I would say they are still below average in terms of consistency. I think Webb has actually had the biggest improvement in this area from last year. Chilo and Carimi are still very inconsistent in pass protection.

I think the play calling shouldn't be an issue, now that Jay can audible at the line, if he can tell he's about to get clobbered, he should change the play. I think this is an area he really needs to improve. Jay seems to be really bad at recognizing certain blitz packages and switching to a hot route.
Jay does not have the quality that great QBs have: awareness of where the rushers are. I don't know it that can be developed but that is the biggest weakness in his game.

He needs to roll out more, too.


Which this is on the coaches/play calling. And like I said some where else it worked really good for the first drive against Detroit and then disappeared since then, they really need to start using it more.
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ak06max


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 1242
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonserinNC wrote:
I never understand on Game day why you guys always blame the sacks on the OL to begin with, haha, its almost like we arent watching the same games.

I have said for a while, and even last year, OL is important but no elite QB would have their entire season derailed by OL play. Cutler takes alot of sacks that better QB's wouldn't.


What? O line is a big factor in pass attack.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 9726
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of great write ups.

But the one thing that needs to be cleared up is that Lance Louis has been out best OLmen to date.

1. Louis
2. Webb
3. Rachal
4. Garza
5. Carimi, who has gotten worse every game since Dallas.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is early, but I am wondering what people think.

If Carimi continues to suck in pass protection do we look at moving him to OG an drafting a RT like Fluker at the end of the 1st round?
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MemphisBear


Joined: 11 Feb 2011
Posts: 266
Location: Memphis, TN
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd bet money that, and rightfully so, they give him this season AND next season at bare minimum before they even consider moving him from tackle.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22672
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
I know this is early, but I am wondering what people think.

If Carimi continues to suck in pass protection do we look at moving him to OG an drafting a RT like Fluker at the end of the 1st round?


What are you trying to do? Get Jay killed? Laughing

Carimi has looked below average in pass pro against NFL talent…Fluker has looked terrible in pass pro against just about everyone he has played this season…Fluker in no way shape or form would be an upgrade…Carimi is going to be our RT for at least the rest of this season and the next…way too early to pull the plug on a guy who has only played the RT spot for 9 games in his life…and that coming off the back of a serious injury that kept him out for a year…we have to give the guy time.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
I know this is early, but I am wondering what people think.

If Carimi continues to suck in pass protection do we look at moving him to OG an drafting a RT like Fluker at the end of the 1st round?


What are you trying to do? Get Jay killed? Laughing

Carimi has looked below average in pass pro against NFL talent…Fluker has looked terrible in pass pro against just about everyone he has played this season…Fluker in no way shape or form would be an upgrade…Carimi is going to be our RT for at least the rest of this season and the next…way too early to pull the plug on a guy who has only played the RT spot for 9 games in his life…and that coming off the back of a serious injury that kept him out for a year…we have to give the guy time.


Fluker was just an example, I am more of a Dallas Thomas guy.

Do you really think if he stinks all of this year he gets all of 2013 as well?

Can Carimi even play OG or is RT his only hope?
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
I know this is early, but I am wondering what people think.

If Carimi continues to suck in pass protection do we look at moving him to OG an drafting a RT like Fluker at the end of the 1st round?


What are you trying to do? Get Jay killed? Laughing

Carimi has looked below average in pass pro against NFL talent…Fluker has looked terrible in pass pro against just about everyone he has played this season…Fluker in no way shape or form would be an upgrade…Carimi is going to be our RT for at least the rest of this season and the next…way too early to pull the plug on a guy who has only played the RT spot for 9 games in his life…and that coming off the back of a serious injury that kept him out for a year…we have to give the guy time.


Fluker was just an example, I am more of a Dallas Thomas guy.

Do you really think if he stinks all of this year he gets all of 2013 as well?

Can Carimi even play OG or is RT his only hope?


First thing I would say is I don’t think he “stinks” right now…his run blocking has been good this season it’s that he is struggling in pass pro…he isn’t the first or the last rookie Olinemen to do so…we all know it’s a big adjustment in terms of speed coming off the edge in the pros…not only that but as I said he is 9 games into his career coming off the back of a serious injury…he is still learning how to kick to his right rather than his left and there is a ton of technique issues with that…the only way to improve is to continue to have reps…there is no doubt in my mind he will still be our starting RT in 2013…as for if he can play inside I would say no…but personally I don’t feel any 6-7” player with 35” arms can play inside…too much length and would struggle mightily with leverage.
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bearsaddict


Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkokot wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
So what Jay needs to succeed is:

Elite OL
Elite WR (which he has)
Elite RB (which he has)
and Elite play-calling

Only after ALL of those are covered can we start blaming Jay for the stalled drives Rolling Eyes

That kind of seems like the logic you guys are using. As I said before, simply put, an elite QB would not just let the entire offense crumble due to mediocre OL play. Like at this point we can agree the OL is at least average right? Jay has got to help his guys out and get rid of the ball.


A few points. I would much rather have Jay take a sack than throw a pick. Would I rather him throw the ball away? Yes. That being said, I think his competitive nature makes him want to hold on to the ball for as long as he can to try to make a play. Does this hurt the team? Sometimes (more sacks/fumbles), but other times it turns into a big play for us. It's risk/reward.

As far as the OL goes, yes, they are average in terms of talent, I would say they are still below average in terms of consistency. I think Webb has actually had the biggest improvement in this area from last year. Chilo and Carimi are still very inconsistent in pass protection.

I think the play calling shouldn't be an issue, now that Jay can audible at the line, if he can tell he's about to get clobbered, he should change the play. I think this is an area he really needs to improve. Jay seems to be really bad at recognizing certain blitz packages and switching to a hot route.
Excellent post Bkokot, especially the highlighted part.
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bearsaddict


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ak06max wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
I never understand on Game day why you guys always blame the sacks on the OL to begin with, haha, its almost like we arent watching the same games.

I have said for a while, and even last year, OL is important but no elite QB would have their entire season derailed by OL play. Cutler takes alot of sacks that better QB's wouldn't.


What? O line is a big factor in pass attack.
Once again we are on the same page Ak. If you think for one second elite qbs don't need at least average Oline play you are fooling yourself completely Monser. Watch a Pats game and time the time Brady sits back there like a statue and goes through his progression. If you watched a normal Pats game and a Bears game side by side the comparison would be shocking. Every time Brady even comes close to having pressure on him he is but a shell of himself. He would become quite average behind this line.
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
ak06max wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
I never understand on Game day why you guys always blame the sacks on the OL to begin with, haha, its almost like we arent watching the same games.

I have said for a while, and even last year, OL is important but no elite QB would have their entire season derailed by OL play. Cutler takes alot of sacks that better QB's wouldn't.


What? O line is a big factor in pass attack.
Once again we are on the same page Ak. If you think for one second elite qbs don't need at least average Oline play you are fooling yourself completely Monser. Watch a Pats game and time the time Brady sits back there like a statue and goes through his progression. If you watched a normal Pats game and a Bears game side by side the comparison would be shocking. Every time Brady even comes close to having pressure on him he is but a shell of himself. He would become quite average behind this line.
Brady hasn't had a great OL this year, but point definitely holds that Brady doesn't play well when pressured.
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