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New Orleans: The Land of Dead Runners!

 
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: New Orleans: The Land of Dead Runners! Reply with quote




Like it or not, New Orleans is where runners go to die.

I’m sitting here watching Buccaneers rookie running back tear up a stout Vikings defense all the while thinking to myself… “Why can’t Mark Ingram do that?” It’s a question that has likely passed through the minds of Saints fans across the country when we see players like Doug Martin, Steven Ridley, and Trent Richardson, Alfred Morris and any other rookie or second year running back being productive in the league.

It sucks…

Is it all Ingram’s fault? I don’t know but here’s what I do know… The Saints are running out of excuses!

All night after almost every big run by the Buccaneers rookie runner I heard Mike Mayock reference the Bucs offseason acquisition of former Saints guard Carl Nicks. We had Carl Nicks last season but did that help then rookie Mark Ingram be as productive as Martin? Short answer… NO!

This offensive scheme (while potent through the air) is a death sentence for quality running backs. Think about it… Reggie Bush looked medic ore at best as a runner in this scheme, we all heard the excuses that Bush wasn’t a “between the tackles” runner and he wasn’t big enough to be an every down back.

He goes to Miami…

The dude is reborn! The former Heisman Trophy winner is looking like the back we all thought we were drafting back in 2005. Did Reggie finally just turn the corner? No, he was just finally in a scheme that valued running backs as equal importance to the offensive philosophy of the football team instead of looking at them as mere extensions to the passing game.

Don’t believe me? How about this…

Think of all our running backs during the Sean Payton era. Deuce, McAllister, Reggie Bush, Pierre Thomas, Chris Ivory, Darren Sproles & Mark Ingram. McAllister was basically running on two bum knees and was clearly at the end of the road during his time with Payton. Payton utilized McAllister as his hammer in short yardage situations with Reggie Bush as the decoy for his offense. McAllister wasn’t a bell cow back for Sean and he couldn’t be, time and injuries had just caught up with our most beloved back.

I think it’s fair to say that while Sean Payton utilized Reggie Bush the best he felt he could in our offense, anyone that would say that Payton gave Reggie every opportunity to be a RUNNING BACK is flat out lying to themselves. Reggie NEVER got that opportunity! Payton continued to use Bush as a glorified 3rd down back / slot receiver which lead me to name this position “position X” under Payton. This happens to be the same position current Saints running back Darren Sproles is now assuming in this offense. Reggie always saw his self as more than what Payton and company believed him to be and once he worked his way out of the Big Easy and out of Payton’s scheme he proved to everyone that in his case, he was right.

Pierre Thomas happens to one of my favorite Saints. I loved his toughness and grit, he’s a man’s man type of a football player but in total honesty… has Pierre Thomas ever set himself apart as a premier back in this league?

The fact is, Pierre Thomas is a quality back, he’s great on half back screens and he’s a tough guy to bring don but he’ll never strike fear into opposing defense’s or become an NFL star. In a way, Pierre Thomas is the perfect fit in Sean Payton’s offensive scheme! He’s durable, tough, doesn’t fumble, produce’s with small amount of carries, inexpensive and dependable. This to me makes #23 the best fit as Payton’s power back. Thomas will never consistently break the 1,000 yard mark and in this offense he doesn’t have to. It’s not what this offense is about and it’s not the type of player Thomas is and that’s ok.

Chris Ivory is a very good running back, although I feel he’s a tad overrated in the minds of a lot of Saints fans. He’s a violent powerful back with a big body and deceptive speed. He has fumbling and injury issues as well as a poor understanding in pass protection. He’s best suited in a physical downhill running scheme which the Saints do not employ. He had a great rookie year for an undrafted free agent and it’s quite a shame how the Saints allow this guy to basically rot on the sidelines in street clothes instead of trading him for much needed draft picks. It’s clear the relationship between the Saints and Ivory is diminishing as he has gone public with his frustrations about his playing time. It’s clear he is not in the future plans of this team whether we like it or not and I would not be shocked to see him dealt before the trade deadline regardless of what Joe Vitt says.

Position X… Darren Sproles much like Pierre Thomas is a perfect fit in this offense. Thomas mans the power position while Sproles handles the X. Like Reggie Bush, Sproles possesses all the qualities Payton looks for at this spot. In a way you can call Position X the engine that drives the cart in this offense. Sure Drew Brees is the driver but its position X that has ALWAYS dictated the offense to the opposing defense.

Sproles has been nothing short of excellent at position X since his arrival in Nawlins. He does exactly what the position asks of him and that’s to be a jack-of-all-trades master of ALL. This was never proven more to be true than in Sproles 1st season with the Saints when he set the all purpose yardage mark in the black and gold.

Sproles first season was a monster for sure… but as a runner?

Its clear Sproles could have been a 1,000 yard back that season had Payton feed him the ball more in the running game but once again… that’s not what happens in this offense, NEVER WILL!

Now we come to our new object of disappointment… Heisman Trophy winning running back Mark Ingram.

First, did anyone actually watch Ingram run at Alabama? I did, it was clear that the kid was the type of back that needed to be feed the ball consistently. He needed to eat up carries to be productive, the Alabama offensive line was littered with road grading maulers who blew open massive holes for the Michigan native.

This is not the Alabama offense folks!!!

Ingram was doomed from the start in New Orleans. He was never going to get the type of carries he needs as well as play in the type of scheme he’s built for to be a productive back. At Alabama he never honed his pass protection skills or excelled in route running. He was slightly overrated coming out of college and he simply was a very bad pick for this New Orleans Saints team.

Here’s the thing tho… That’s not Mark Ingram’s fault!

Mark Ingram did not trade up for Mark Ingram. Mark Ingram does not call offensive plays or draft offensive lineman. Mark Ingram will never be the back we all hope or expect him to be and the fault in that does not ly at the feet of Mark Ingram… That fault lies at the feet of the men who traded away a 1st & 2nd round draft choice in order to move up and select a player that they had absolutely zero plan for and obviously zero understanding off the type of player he is.

So next time Ingram comes into the game in a clear running situation and he gets the ball up the middle for two yards then trots off the field never to be seen again for the rest of the game… do not blame Mark Ingram, do not blame the line… BLAME THE SYSTEM!!!

It’s the one where runners go to die!


WHODAT
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was long as all hell and I will admit I only got about halfway through but I agree 100%. I've been saying for years that this system is a death sentence to HBs. I hate this RBBC non sense.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
This was long as all hell and I will admit I only got about halfway through but I agree 100%. I've been saying for years that this system is a death sentence to HBs. I hate this RBBC non sense.


My friend... We are finally in agreement! Wink
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree we should get away from the RBBC approach. I feel the offense would be much more consistent if it was just PT with Sproles as the oocasional 3rd down back.

But fact is, the system worked last season. I want to see how the run game plays with Kromer returning to his full duties (as offensive line coach and run game coordinator where he shined last season). Kromer was not cut out to be a HC, and I think it got in the way of his older duties. I think the run game can be put back on track, but I feel the run game should be going through PT for maximum consistency.

I love Ingram, and I feel like he could be a successful RB in the NFL. Even in our current scheme, but not with the RBBC approach. He seems like a back that needs some consistent snaps to get into a good rhythm and he won't get that here.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
I agree we should get away from the RBBC approach. I feel the offense would be much more consistent if it was just PT with Sproles as the oocasional 3rd down back.

But fact is, the system worked last season. I want to see how the run game plays with Kromer returning to his full duties (as offensive line coach and run game coordinator where he shined last season). Kromer was not cut out to be a HC, and I think it got in the way of his older duties. I think the run game can be put back on track, but I feel the run game should be going through PT for maximum consistency.

I love Ingram, and I feel like he could be a successful RB in the NFL. Even in our current scheme, but not with the RBBC approach. He seems like a back that needs some consistent snaps to get into a good rhythm and he won't get that here.


First off... GREAT hearing from ya Navyman!!! It's been a while Laughing

Now that that's out the way...

I agree! It seems that all these back can be successful but only if given the right oppertunity.

Ingram can be a dynamic back for New Orleans but to do that he would need the Saints not to CHANGE the system per say but modify it to suit his skill set. That would include actually taking the ball out of Brees's hands and giving it to Ingram more because he's a quanity carries back, THE SAINTS WILL NEVER DO THIS. They would also need to feature Mark whitch means less touches for Sproles and even less for PT. ONCE AGAIN, PAYTON WILL NEVER DO THIS! As long as Ingram is getting his 8-10 carry adverage on obvious running plays he will never amount to more than a short yardage back with the Saints.

Pierre Thomas is actually the featured back, His role is actually exactly what he's best suited for in my opinion. He and Sproles work so well together in this scheme it's almost flawless. They can fun but are also major extentions of the passing game. PT on his screens and Sproles on his swing passes. Sure the running aspect can always get better but I also feel the offensive line are still learning how to play together especially on the left side. This will only get better. PT and Sproles both need limited touches in the running game to be productive because they are so involved in the passing game as well. This is the exact oppsite of players such as Ingram and Ivory. Those two in my opinion will never be nothing more than short yardage backs in this scheme unless Payton changes what he does and I don't see that happening. I would go as far as saying that Cadet is a much better fit in this scheme than either Ivory or Ingram.

Ingram is a good player and i see him as a featured back in the leauge but not here. Yes he serves a purpose but the bottom line is thus far the Saints have traded a 1st & 2nd round pick for a short yardage power back while Chris Ivory was already on the roster and our defense was aging and in shambles.

Comes a point ya gotta admit your mistakes... Ingram was a popular pick at the time but we all kinda thought he'd be our featured back and that is just not the case, he isnt even close and it's not his fault.

Like I said, he was doomed form the start here!
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SaintsBeast


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if Ingram is TOTALLY doomed... One of the things killing our running game is our complete predictability. Ingram NEVER runs a route anymore. Honestly, who cares if they rarely work, it begins to make a defense account for the possibility that he could do that. They need to get him in on some other plays, rather than just between-the-tackles runs.

Similar situation with Sproles! He doesn't run it up the middle this year. Teams automatically know that they need to contain the edges and keep track of him if he runs a route. Never once do they worry about him going up the middle. But, IIRC, he turned two or three of those BTT runs into 10+ yard pick-ups, and i think one ended up in a TD. Again, it may not work every time we run it, BUT THE DEFENSE HAS TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT POSSIBILITY.

Last year, we did these things. We were SIXTH in the NFL, ending with 2127 rushing yards at 132.9 yds/game and 4.9 yds/attempt. This year, we are dead last. We average under 80 rushing yards a game. This a huge reason we started 0-4. Brees was trying to do too much, which led to some great oppurtunities and points for opposing teams. We get back to what we were doing last year, and the number six seed might not be that far-fetched for us.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know one thing, our running scheme hurts our RBs more than our RBs hurt our running scheme.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
I know one thing, our running scheme hurts our RBs more than our RBs hurt our running scheme.


Agreed...

It also hurts that Bushrod is adverage at best, DLP is only serviceable, Evans seems to be regressing every year removed from his huge conrtact and Strif is well... Strief!

Grubbs is the only player on this line who is consistant in the run game and he's still feeling his way through a new offensive scheme.

I also think after a years worth of playcalling opposing teams have caught up to Carmichael as a play caller... he's become to predictable.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
I know one thing, our running scheme hurts our RBs more than our RBs hurt our running scheme.


Agreed...

It also hurts that Bushrod is adverage at best, DLP is only serviceable, Evans seems to be regressing every year removed from his huge conrtact and Strif is well... Strief!

Grubbs is the only player on this line who is consistant in the run game and he's still feeling his way through a new offensive scheme.

I also think after a years worth of playcalling opposing teams have caught up to Carmichael as a play caller... he's become to predictable.


Can you imagine our stable of RBs on a team like San Fransisco?

Shocked
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you imagine our stable of RBs on a team like San Fransisco?

Shocked


Dosen't it drive you mad just thinking that!!! Evil or Very Mad

I mean we all know we have talent at the position but we just can't do anything with it! The worst part is... this ain't nothing new!

Same ol song and dance Sad
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
Can you imagine our stable of RBs on a team like San Fransisco?

Shocked


Dosen't it drive you mad just thinking that!!! Evil or Very Mad

I mean we all know we have talent at the position but we just can't do anything with it! The worst part is... this ain't nothing new!

Same ol song and dance Sad


And how many of you thought I was crazy when I was saying that Reggie was just being used wrong and he just didn't suck?
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And how many of you thought I was crazy when I was saying that Reggie was just being used wrong and he just didn't suck?


I was on that list! Embarassed d'oh! Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
And how many of you thought I was crazy when I was saying that Reggie was just being used wrong and he just didn't suck?


I was on that list! Embarassed d'oh! Laughing


Don't be doubting my greatness again! Laughing
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