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The problems on this team go much deeper than pass rushers!
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Harper41


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Porter22 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Porter22 wrote:
I feel like we should go BPA on defense. We need a difference maker on defense no matter which position he plays. I would even consider drafting Manti Teo'o. This guy is a beast, for me the best defensive player to come out in years!

But where would we play him? WLB? The ENTIRE defense is hurting because of our lack of pass rush, we can call out the secondary all we want but guess what? We could have all pros at every spot in the secondary but if the QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball, we're going to get torched regardless.


whodatworm talked about switching to a 3-4 defense. He could play one of the ILB positions and we could trade/cut Hawthorne or Lofton. It's not about their playing this year but we don't know whether they can play in a 3-4 or not. Look at Demeco Ryans in Houston!
Our pass rush won't get any worse and players like Wilson and Galette will become better. Maybe we can bring in a guy like Connor Barwin or draft a pass rusher in round two. There is a lot pass rushing talent this year and one good player will drop to the second round at least!

How do we know Wilson and Galette will become better in a 3-4? What if they regress? Also the cap hit from trading or cutting Hawthorne and Lofton would be huge. Switching to a 3-4 isn't the answer, getting talent is.


David Hawthorne played at TCU, Lofton at Oklahoma... these two can play in the 34 on the indise so we can stop with all that nonsence. Actually they would be a very good tandem on the inside in that scheme.

How do we know wilson and galette will become better in the 34... at least we'd find out! they would get on the field in more base packages. If they don't it's eaiser to find 34 rush backers than pure 43 rush ends in todays nfl drafft.

The ONLY DL we have that fits a 3-4 is Cameron Jordan, Akiem Hicks isn't built to be a NT in the NFL, and if we throw him at 3-4 DE it's a waste of his pass rushing ability. We aren't sure any of our LBs fit in a 3-4 and it would require a huge change in the secondary as well, Harper would need to go and Jenkins would need to adjust to yet another scheme change. Completely overhauling this defense in the middle of our Super Bowl window isn't the answer. Why hand Drew Brees a huge contract and then rebuild our defense? If we switch to a 3-4 we'd be at least a season, if not two from seeing any sort of positive outcome unless we get lucky and all of our guys just fit perfectly into a 3-4. We need to make win NOW moves while we still have Brees, in 4 years we can switch to a 3-4, we'll suck anyway.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Porter22 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Porter22 wrote:
I feel like we should go BPA on defense. We need a difference maker on defense no matter which position he plays. I would even consider drafting Manti Teo'o. This guy is a beast, for me the best defensive player to come out in years!

But where would we play him? WLB? The ENTIRE defense is hurting because of our lack of pass rush, we can call out the secondary all we want but guess what? We could have all pros at every spot in the secondary but if the QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball, we're going to get torched regardless.


whodatworm talked about switching to a 3-4 defense. He could play one of the ILB positions and we could trade/cut Hawthorne or Lofton. It's not about their playing this year but we don't know whether they can play in a 3-4 or not. Look at Demeco Ryans in Houston!
Our pass rush won't get any worse and players like Wilson and Galette will become better. Maybe we can bring in a guy like Connor Barwin or draft a pass rusher in round two. There is a lot pass rushing talent this year and one good player will drop to the second round at least!

How do we know Wilson and Galette will become better in a 3-4? What if they regress? Also the cap hit from trading or cutting Hawthorne and Lofton would be huge. Switching to a 3-4 isn't the answer, getting talent is.


David Hawthorne played at TCU, Lofton at Oklahoma... these two can play in the 34 on the indise so we can stop with all that nonsence. Actually they would be a very good tandem on the inside in that scheme.

How do we know wilson and galette will become better in the 34... at least we'd find out! they would get on the field in more base packages. If they don't it's eaiser to find 34 rush backers than pure 43 rush ends in todays nfl drafft.

The ONLY DL we have that fits a 3-4 is Cameron Jordan, Akiem Hicks isn't built to be a NT in the NFL, and if we throw him at 3-4 DE it's a waste of his pass rushing ability. We aren't sure any of our LBs fit in a 3-4 and it would require a huge change in the secondary as well, Harper would need to go and Jenkins would need to adjust to yet another scheme change. Completely overhauling this defense in the middle of our Super Bowl window isn't the answer. Why hand Drew Brees a huge contract and then rebuild our defense? If we switch to a 3-4 we'd be at least a season, if not two from seeing any sort of positive outcome unless we get lucky and all of our guys just fit perfectly into a 3-4. We need to make win NOW moves while we still have Brees, in 4 years we can switch to a 3-4, we'll suck anyway.


Harp, you talk like great 43 defensive talent will all of a sudden fall out of the sky for us!

If Michael Johnson was so great why wouldent the Bengals resign or franchise him? There biggest need right now is a pass ruaher like us but your answer is their talented but overrated RDE.

Forget about this so called window! You wanna know what drew brees is right now... hes archie manning, hes a great qb on a horriable team!

You say we can't blow this all up in brees's window... what do you think they did when they hired spags???

I'd argue that switching from williams scheme to spags is just as massive as the switch to the 34. the only difference is personnel but guess what, Will Smith, Jon Vilma, Scott Shanle, Turk McBride, Sedrick Ellis, etc will all be gone next season or need to be. With them on the roster you had an argument for spags but not anylonger.

You say Harper would need to go and Jenkins would have to learn a whole new scheme. NEWS FLASH: Harper needs to go anyway because of his contract and coverage ability and Jenkins if anything NEEDS a new coverage scheme because lord knows this one aint doing him no favors!!!
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:

Harp, you talk like great 43 defensive talent will all of a sudden fall out of the sky for us!

If Michael Johnson was so great why wouldent the Bengals resign or franchise him? There biggest need right now is a pass ruaher like us but your answer is their talented but overrated RDE.

Forget about this so called window! You wanna know what drew brees is right now... hes archie manning, hes a great qb on a horriable team!

You say we can't blow this all up in brees's window... what do you think they did when they hired spags???

I'd argue that switching from williams scheme to spags is just as massive as the switch to the 34. the only difference is personnel but guess what, Will Smith, Jon Vilma, Scott Shanle, Turk McBride, Sedrick Ellis, etc will all be gone next season or need to be. With them on the roster you had an argument for spags but not anylonger.

You say Harper would need to go and Jenkins would have to learn a whole new scheme. NEWS FLASH: Harper needs to go anyway because of his contract and coverage ability and Jenkins if anything NEEDS a new coverage scheme because lord knows this one aint doing him no favors!!!

Michael Johnson is going to command a pay day, he's having a great year, he likely will be kept by the Bengals but I'd definitely love to sign him. I don't see how he's overrated either, I never hear him mentioned.
You want to make comments like "4-3 talent falling from the sky" but where are we going to get a FULL defense of 3-4 talent? Your arse? Cameron Jordan is our only DL who fits in a 3-4 what do we do with Bunkley? Cut him? Hicks? Play him out of position at DE and potentially waste his talent? Martez Wilson and Junior Galette aren't guarantees at 3-4 OLB, so we could potentially need 2 new OLBs, Lofton and Hawthorne definitely aren't guarantees at ILB but they both are good in the 4-3. A switch to the 3-4 just has way to much risk in the middle of our window.
If we add an elite pass rusher SOMEHOW our defense looks much better. Hicks is flashing tons of potential, Jordan gets better every year, Bunkley is a great run stopper. All we need is a STUD DE, I know thats asking a lot but one of the top DEs in this draft could make a world of difference for this defense. Our defensive line is our biggest issue by far, our secondary has talent but to ask them to cover for as long as they have been is ridiculous.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I really don't want to start this Jenkins argument again but Harper has made WAY more plays in coverage this year than Jenkins has so if Harper has coverage issues, what the heck does Jenkins have?
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:

Harp, you talk like great 43 defensive talent will all of a sudden fall out of the sky for us!

If Michael Johnson was so great why wouldent the Bengals resign or franchise him? There biggest need right now is a pass ruaher like us but your answer is their talented but overrated RDE.

Forget about this so called window! You wanna know what drew brees is right now... hes archie manning, hes a great qb on a horriable team!

You say we can't blow this all up in brees's window... what do you think they did when they hired spags???

I'd argue that switching from williams scheme to spags is just as massive as the switch to the 34. the only difference is personnel but guess what, Will Smith, Jon Vilma, Scott Shanle, Turk McBride, Sedrick Ellis, etc will all be gone next season or need to be. With them on the roster you had an argument for spags but not anylonger.

You say Harper would need to go and Jenkins would have to learn a whole new scheme. NEWS FLASH: Harper needs to go anyway because of his contract and coverage ability and Jenkins if anything NEEDS a new coverage scheme because lord knows this one aint doing him no favors!!!

Michael Johnson is going to command a pay day, he's having a great year, he likely will be kept by the Bengals but I'd definitely love to sign him. I don't see how he's overrated either, I never hear him mentioned.
You want to make comments like "4-3 talent falling from the sky" but where are we going to get a FULL defense of 3-4 talent? Your arse? Cameron Jordan is our only DL who fits in a 3-4 what do we do with Bunkley? Cut him? Hicks? Play him out of position at DE and potentially waste his talent? Martez Wilson and Junior Galette aren't guarantees at 3-4 OLB, so we could potentially need 2 new OLBs, Lofton and Hawthorne definitely aren't guarantees at ILB but they both are good in the 4-3. A switch to the 3-4 just has way to much risk in the middle of our window.
If we add an elite pass rusher SOMEHOW our defense looks much better. Hicks is flashing tons of potential, Jordan gets better every year, Bunkley is a great run stopper. All we need is a STUD DE, I know thats asking a lot but one of the top DEs in this draft could make a world of difference for this defense. Our defensive line is our biggest issue by far, our secondary has talent but to ask them to cover for as long as they have been is ridiculous.


No, calling Bunkley a great runstuffer is ridiculous!

Akiem Hicks played in a multi front defense at Regina. He played NT & LDE in the 34 front in most of his packages. You say that takes away from his strgenth... I disagree!

Hawthorne in Gary Patterson's TCU defense and Lofton in Bob Stoops defensve are accustomed to a base two inside alignment. and they were good at it.

Sure wilson and galette aint locks as 34 outside backers but guess what... if your looking for 43 edge rushers so bad i guess they aint fittin that 43 that well neither.

Spags got his chance... Worst in NFL and only getting uglier.

Give someone else a shot!

Look if Spags scheme would show ANY... ANY AT ALL of some kinda promise then maybe, but this is just down right sad and you can keep your excuses for it.

There arent any!
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Also I really don't want to start this Jenkins argument again but Harper has made WAY more plays in coverage this year than Jenkins has so if Harper has coverage issues, what the heck does Jenkins have?


Jenkins has the entire center field to cover while Harper slow butt gets to play glorified linebacker because thats all he can do!!!

WHy u think we been seeing Quddus so much as of late... Laughing
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This defense is miserable because we don't have talent, plain and simple. Spags relies on the front four to get pressure, ours sucks. He started to blitz more and guess what? It still isn't helping. No defensive coordinator can succeed when you get NO pass rush out of our players. He can't even implement his scheme properly because he has to constantly blitz LBs now to even have a hope to get the ball out of the QBs hands before the 7 second mark.
You know whats pathetic? Curtis Lofton and Akiem Hicks are probably the only players on this defense that are good players and Hicks still has a lot to prove.
Cameron Jordan is an average DE, Brodrick Bunkley is one dimensional, Hawthorne hasn't been healthy, Shanle sucks, Greers taken 2 steps back, Robinson looks lost at times in zone, Jenkins has been bad and Harper isn't getting any better in coverage. This defense has such a lack of talent that switching to a 3-4 isn't enough, I don't think anything is enough honestly unless we sign 2 immediate impact players and draft 2 pro bowl players next year we're looking at a lot of playoff losses in our future.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Also I really don't want to start this Jenkins argument again but Harper has made WAY more plays in coverage this year than Jenkins has so if Harper has coverage issues, what the heck does Jenkins have?


Jenkins has the entire center field to cover while Harper slow butt gets to play glorified linebacker because thats all he can do!!!

WHy u think we been seeing Quddus so much as of late... Laughing

Roman Harper has been playing LB on 3rd down and doing a very good job, yeah we all know he's not good in coverage but he's been making plays. Malcolm Jenkins is supposed to be our ball hawk, cover FS and all he's done is blow assignments, miss tackles and take terrible angles whether Quddus or Harper have been back there with him. You can't yell and scream about Roman Harper and then give Malcolm Jenkins a million excuses.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
This defense is miserable because we don't have talent, plain and simple. Spags relies on the front four to get pressure, ours sucks. He started to blitz more and guess what? It still isn't helping. No defensive coordinator can succeed when you get NO pass rush out of our players. He can't even implement his scheme properly because he has to constantly blitz LBs now to even have a hope to get the ball out of the QBs hands before the 7 second mark.
You know whats pathetic? Curtis Lofton and Akiem Hicks are probably the only players on this defense that are good players and Hicks still has a lot to prove.
Cameron Jordan is an average DE, Brodrick Bunkley is one dimensional, Hawthorne hasn't been healthy, Shanle sucks, Greers taken 2 steps back, Robinson looks lost at times in zone, Jenkins has been bad and Harper isn't getting any better in coverage. This defense has such a lack of talent that switching to a 3-4 isn't enough, I don't think anything is enough honestly unless we sign 2 immediate impact players and draft 2 pro bowl players next year we're looking at a lot of playoff losses in our future.


What we both want really isn't no difference... we just wanna get it in two seprate ways.

You wanna keep spags and land a 43 rusher like Johnson... I would rather have a new DE (34) and sign a guy like Connor Barwin.

Either way we want the same in the end, Good defense.

U know what really bothers me the most about spagnuolo's defense though... Theres no passion! Theres no fire or attitude... theres no FIGHT!

Thats just as big a problem as any and thats on Spagnuolo.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
This defense is miserable because we don't have talent, plain and simple. Spags relies on the front four to get pressure, ours sucks. He started to blitz more and guess what? It still isn't helping. No defensive coordinator can succeed when you get NO pass rush out of our players. He can't even implement his scheme properly because he has to constantly blitz LBs now to even have a hope to get the ball out of the QBs hands before the 7 second mark.
You know whats pathetic? Curtis Lofton and Akiem Hicks are probably the only players on this defense that are good players and Hicks still has a lot to prove.
Cameron Jordan is an average DE, Brodrick Bunkley is one dimensional, Hawthorne hasn't been healthy, Shanle sucks, Greers taken 2 steps back, Robinson looks lost at times in zone, Jenkins has been bad and Harper isn't getting any better in coverage. This defense has such a lack of talent that switching to a 3-4 isn't enough, I don't think anything is enough honestly unless we sign 2 immediate impact players and draft 2 pro bowl players next year we're looking at a lot of playoff losses in our future.


What we both want really isn't no difference... we just wanna get it in two seprate ways.

You wanna keep spags and land a 43 rusher like Johnson... I would rather have a new DE (34) and sign a guy like Connor Barwin.

Either way we want the same in the end, Good defense.

U know what really bothers me the most about spagnuolo's defense though... Theres no passion! Theres no fire or attitude... theres no FIGHT!

Thats just as big a problem as any and thats on Spagnuolo.

How is there no fire or attitude? How would you even know that? Are you in the huddle? Are you in the locker room? You're making things up to try and back your argument up. You know what we all know their isn't on that field? Defensive talent. I don't think scheme our coaching is our issue on defense, its talent evaluation. Whether it be in free agency or the draft we routinely miss on defenders. That needs to be fixed, heck we haven't even been good at evaluating offensive players. Outside of Brees and Jimmy Graham we've had some pretty large misses. Actually, now that I think about it, we really suck at drafting.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
This defense is miserable because we don't have talent, plain and simple. Spags relies on the front four to get pressure, ours sucks. He started to blitz more and guess what? It still isn't helping. No defensive coordinator can succeed when you get NO pass rush out of our players. He can't even implement his scheme properly because he has to constantly blitz LBs now to even have a hope to get the ball out of the QBs hands before the 7 second mark.
You know whats pathetic? Curtis Lofton and Akiem Hicks are probably the only players on this defense that are good players and Hicks still has a lot to prove.
Cameron Jordan is an average DE, Brodrick Bunkley is one dimensional, Hawthorne hasn't been healthy, Shanle sucks, Greers taken 2 steps back, Robinson looks lost at times in zone, Jenkins has been bad and Harper isn't getting any better in coverage. This defense has such a lack of talent that switching to a 3-4 isn't enough, I don't think anything is enough honestly unless we sign 2 immediate impact players and draft 2 pro bowl players next year we're looking at a lot of playoff losses in our future.


What we both want really isn't no difference... we just wanna get it in two seprate ways.

You wanna keep spags and land a 43 rusher like Johnson... I would rather have a new DE (34) and sign a guy like Connor Barwin.

Either way we want the same in the end, Good defense.

U know what really bothers me the most about spagnuolo's defense though... Theres no passion! Theres no fire or attitude... theres no FIGHT!

Thats just as big a problem as any and thats on Spagnuolo.

How is there no fire or attitude? How would you even know that? Are you in the huddle? Are you in the locker room? You're making things up to try and back your argument up. You know what we all know their isn't on that field? Defensive talent. I don't think scheme our coaching is our issue on defense, its talent evaluation. Whether it be in free agency or the draft we routinely miss on defenders. That needs to be fixed, heck we haven't even been good at evaluating offensive players. Outside of Brees and Jimmy Graham we've had some pretty large misses. Actually, now that I think about it, we really suck at drafting.


Harper41,

Ive played this game on the defensive side of the ball on 3 different levels and I know enough about the game to see in players body language that the fire and passion just isnt there.

Think what you want, I know what I see and I dont have to be on the field to know it!
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