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nextsuperstar


Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
pjhdsn wrote:
compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties


The big difference is Ty Law and Rodney Harrison, but the difference between total garbage like Moore/Arrington and a reliable vet like Otis Smith or Tyrone Poole is pretty big.

I feel like some people around here (not necessarily you) have forgotten just how good those players were - especially Law. When you have one of the top 10 CB's of the last 15 years (which Law easily is), it makes things a lot easier on your entire defense.


That's the thing. Obviously a great CB like Law and a great safety like Harrison would help, but most teams do not have all world DBs. The problem is the practice squad level defensive backs being rolled out on a weekly basis. Even if you replace McCourty with Law and Wilson with Harrison, they cannot cover the entire field and teams would still pick on Arrington and Moore.


McCourty is fine, he's having a pretty good year at both the CB and S spots he's played.

Fill that other CB spot with an average CB and find 2 average safeties and the secondary isn't a huge concern.


Exactly. McCourty alone cannot cover 4 or 5 receivers.
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24isthelaw


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
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Location: Where the Patriots are
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:

Blitzing against a team with mediocre-to-poor receivers, a bad OL and a mediocre QB is a bit different than doing it against a team like Houston or Pittsburgh.

I'm not sure why blitzing has become the panacea people throw out there for the secondary.


I wouldn't say it will fix anything. But when the secondary is so bad at this point that it breaks down as soon as wide receivers get downfield, and things couldn't possibly get any worse (see the last two games and the first drive), you have to at least give it a shot.
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Sciz


Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 15730
Location: Iowa
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
things couldn't possibly get any worse
This is the biggest thing that bugs me about Pats fans right now. Yes, it can get worse. It can get a lot worse.
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24isthelaw


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
things couldn't possibly get any worse
This is the biggest thing that bugs me about Pats fans right now. Yes, it can get worse. It can get a lot worse.


No it can't. Watch the first drive of the game. Same 4-man rush, same result. Teams WILL score in that situation, as long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot. A team with a good offense will score every single time they take the field against our 4 man rush. How can it get worse than that?
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
Sciz wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
things couldn't possibly get any worse
This is the biggest thing that bugs me about Pats fans right now. Yes, it can get worse. It can get a lot worse.


No it can't. Watch the first drive of the game. Same 4-man rush, same result. Teams WILL score in that situation, as long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot. A team with a good offense will score every single time they take the field against our 4 man rush. How can it get worse than that?


Coming into today, the Pats pass defense was:

29th in yards
26th in yards per attempt
27th in passer rating against
25th in completion percentage against

So coming into today, they weren't even in the bottom 3 in any of those categories. So to say "it can't get worse" is nonsensical. Of course it can, as evidenced by the teams who have worse pass D this year.
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
Sciz wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
things couldn't possibly get any worse
This is the biggest thing that bugs me about Pats fans right now. Yes, it can get worse. It can get a lot worse.


No it can't. Watch the first drive of the game. Same 4-man rush, same result. Teams WILL score in that situation, as long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot. A team with a good offense will score every single time they take the field against our 4 man rush. How can it get worse than that?


Coming into today, the Pats pass defense was:

29th in yards
26th in yards per attempt
27th in passer rating against
25th in completion percentage against

So coming into today, they weren't even in the bottom 3 in any of those categories. So to say "it can't get worse" is nonsensical. Of course it can, as evidenced by the teams who have worse pass D this year.


Problem is, we've faced...

Jake Locker
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Mark Sanchez
Russell Wilson
Sam Bradford
Joe Flacco
Peyton Manning

Meaning only 1 good quarterback and several terrible ones.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
A team with a good offense will score every single time they take the field against our 4 man rush.
Okay, it's not your statement "it can't get any worse" that's ridiculous. It's this statement that is.
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Richter


Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I kind of agree with the "it can't get worse" point, conditionally. The Patriots' defense seems very schizophrenic. When they're on top of their assignments and the secondary is communicating and the line is getting off the snap quickly, they look pretty good, and tend to be effective. And then something goes wrong, the opponent adjusts or a coverage is blown or whatever, and it snowballs. And that's the point where it can't get any worse. They get locked into these drives where the opponent scoring just feels like an inevitability, where the mistakes pile up and the dam breaks, and nothing really seems to pull them out of it. When they get into one of these ruts, why not go heavy blitz and try to create a turnover or pressure the QB into a mistake? They're going to surrender a score anyway, so you might as well fire every bullet you have in that situation.
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Nihc


Joined: 13 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the same exact Patriot team as last year.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like leaving McCourty at safety for the balance of the year would be the best idea for at least stabilizing the unit. Let Dennard take his lumps at LCB. He's played well enough to earn a starting role. I'd keep Moore at RCB just because even though he's not so good in coverage, he can at least make plays on the ball better than anyone else out there.

It's not gonna be a great unit, but at least it's not gonna give up five plays of 20+ yards ever game like they'd been doing.
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it is the coaching. Our corners are always lining up 5-10 yards from the receivers even on short downs and the coaches aren't doing anything or telling them to get to the line to jam the receivers.
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terbo559 wrote:
I agree that it is the coaching. Our corners are always lining up 5-10 yards from the receivers even on short downs and the coaches aren't doing anything or telling them to get to the line to jam the receivers.


Meh that would be a terrible idea. None of our corners can be trusted to play press coverage. Its hard enough for the safeties to get it right when the corners aren't 15 yards behind their man...
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rabbisson


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hope that Alfonzo Dennard doesn't pull a Darius Butler. But they remind me of each other (although Dennard might be a bit feistier.)

I do like Dennard starting at one of the CB spots for the immediate future, though. He is a talented player and we are so lucky he slipped.
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This guy gets it. Seriously, the ideas being espoused here need to get to 88 mph so they can go back to the 1950's.

I'm a cold-blooded dickens.
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VTPatsFan


Joined: 23 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you guys think that the coaches might be on to something if they start moving away from a zone scheme to a more aggressive man-to-man scheme?

The first drive it was all zone, and they looked awful.

After that, they blitzed more and played more man coverage, and it seemed like they were much better.

The final play of the Jets game was the same thing; man coverage with the LBs blitzing, and coverage was tight all across the board.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VTPatsFan wrote:
Do you guys think that the coaches might be on to something if they start moving away from a zone scheme to a more aggressive man-to-man scheme?

The first drive it was all zone, and they looked awful.

After that, they blitzed more and played more man coverage, and it seemed like they were much better.

The final play of the Jets game was the same thing; man coverage with the LBs blitzing, and coverage was tight all across the board.

Well, playing zone with young players is tough, they have to pass off receivers and communicate effectively for it to work. I'm not sure playing a ton of man coverage will work out in the long run, because it generally requires better athletes, but the Patriots do have some young legs that can run.
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