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pjhdsn


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 698
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Pass Defense Problems Reply with quote

Having sat through the frustration of recent weeks(today notwithstanding) watching our pass defense make guys Wilson(i was here in person, not a pretty 4th quarter) and Sanchez look like HOFers. I thought about what was needed to fix it. Most guys seemed quick to blame the players, especially the DB's. Although the pass rush wasnt up to snuff in there either. It seemed to me a lot of it had to do with coaching. It led me to one very curious question, i realize the unlikeliness of it. But thought id throw it out to the universe anyways. Do you think having Eric Mangini back as DB's coach would help fix the issue, or fix it altogether? There is a tonne of bad blood, or was between Mangini and Belichick so that makes it unlikely. But who knows if theyve reconciled since. Mangini is a part timer on TV, but would have obvious ambitions to get back in the league. So fellow pats fans, how about it?
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Sciz


Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 15917
Location: Iowa
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather burn Mangini at the stake than have him associated with the Pats again.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 25791
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pats were 31st in the NFL in passing yards and 30th in yards per attempt in 2005 when Mangini was defensive coordinator.

Why do people think he is the answer?
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pjhdsn


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 698
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
The Pats were 31st in the NFL in passing yards and 30th in yards per attempt in 2005 when Mangini was defensive coordinator.

Why do people think he is the answer?


how about when he was DB's coach alone, not d coordinator?
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 25791
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjhdsn wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
The Pats were 31st in the NFL in passing yards and 30th in yards per attempt in 2005 when Mangini was defensive coordinator.

Why do people think he is the answer?


how about when he was DB's coach alone, not d coordinator?


2000: 21st/21st
2001: 24th/19th
2002: 11th/10th
2003: 15th/2nd
2004: 17th/10th

The Pats secondary has mostly awful talent. Put a near-prime Lawyer Milloy/Rodney Harrison, decent Eugene Wilson and near-prime Ty Law on the 2012 team and you'd see similar results to those early 2000's teams
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NinjaZX6R


Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 9334
Location: Columbus, Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
The Pats were 31st in the NFL in passing yards and 30th in yards per attempt in 2005 when Mangini was defensive coordinator.

Why do people think he is the answer?


Village idiots do.
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FirstDownFaulk


Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 5780
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The secondary receives a lot of the criticism but there's a small fact that most people tend to overlook.....New England blitzes less than any team in football. Today they blitzed much more often than usual and the secondary was forced into coverage for 5-6 seconds and Bradford never really looked comfortable in the pocket (aside from the opening drive).

There's no question that there are a few weak links back there, but I've seen some flashes of potential (Dennard, Wilson, Cole mostly) and if the defense can get consistent pressure like they did today, the secondary will be fine.
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Tom Brady hasn't left NE and proven himself not to be a system QB...so he is one.

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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 25791
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FirstDownFaulk wrote:
The secondary receives a lot of the criticism but there's a small fact that most people tend to overlook.....New England blitzes less than any team in football. Today they blitzed much more often than usual and the secondary was forced into coverage for 5-6 seconds and Bradford never really looked comfortable in the pocket (aside from the opening drive).

There's no question that there are a few weak links back there, but I've seen some flashes of potential (Dennard, Wilson, Cole mostly) and if the defense can get consistent pressure like they did today, the secondary will be fine.


Blitzing against a team with mediocre-to-poor receivers, a bad OL and a mediocre QB is a bit different than doing it against a team like Houston or Pittsburgh.

I'm not sure why blitzing has become the panacea people throw out there for the secondary.
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Nihc


Joined: 12 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

although we always get torched for yards, we always seem to pick a couple passes off.
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pjhdsn


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 25791
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjhdsn wrote:
compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties


The big difference is Ty Law and Rodney Harrison, but the difference between total garbage like Moore/Arrington and a reliable vet like Otis Smith or Tyrone Poole is pretty big.

I feel like some people around here (not necessarily you) have forgotten just how good those players were - especially Law. When you have one of the top 10 CB's of the last 15 years (which Law easily is), it makes things a lot easier on your entire defense.
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pjhdsn


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 698
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
pjhdsn wrote:
compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties


The big difference is Ty Law and Rodney Harrison, but the difference between total garbage like Moore/Arrington and a reliable vet like Otis Smith or Tyrone Poole is pretty big.

I feel like some people around here (not necessarily you) have forgotten just how good those players were - especially Law. When you have one of the top 10 CB's of the last 15 years (which Law easily is), it makes things a lot easier on your entire defense.


Law was shutdown, and yes the DB's were better, even Eugene Wilson looked pretty good for a little bit. The coaching was a lot better too, and thats where I was going with this. Trying to replicate that secondary is hopeless with the current roster, but there is a servicable secondary in there, McCourty is good when his head is on right. I like Tavon Wilson and Alfonzo Dennard even though hes got a ways to go yet.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjhdsn wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
pjhdsn wrote:
compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties


The big difference is Ty Law and Rodney Harrison, but the difference between total garbage like Moore/Arrington and a reliable vet like Otis Smith or Tyrone Poole is pretty big.

I feel like some people around here (not necessarily you) have forgotten just how good those players were - especially Law. When you have one of the top 10 CB's of the last 15 years (which Law easily is), it makes things a lot easier on your entire defense.


Law was shutdown, and yes the DB's were better, even Eugene Wilson looked pretty good for a little bit. The coaching was a lot better too, and thats where I was going with this. Trying to replicate that secondary is hopeless with the current roster, but there is a servicable secondary in there, McCourty is good when his head is on right. I like Tavon Wilson and Alfonzo Dennard even though hes got a ways to go yet.


Tavon Wilson has been pretty bad to my eye. But, I do agree that some of the problem is coaching. I just don't think Mangini is the guy or that even a great DB coach could get much out of this collection of "talent."
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nextsuperstar


Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
pjhdsn wrote:
compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties


The big difference is Ty Law and Rodney Harrison, but the difference between total garbage like Moore/Arrington and a reliable vet like Otis Smith or Tyrone Poole is pretty big.

I feel like some people around here (not necessarily you) have forgotten just how good those players were - especially Law. When you have one of the top 10 CB's of the last 15 years (which Law easily is), it makes things a lot easier on your entire defense.


That's the thing. Obviously a great CB like Law and a great safety like Harrison would help, but most teams do not have all world DBs. The problem is the practice squad level defensive backs being rolled out on a weekly basis. Even if you replace McCourty with Law and Wilson with Harrison, they cannot cover the entire field and teams would still pick on Arrington and Moore.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextsuperstar wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
pjhdsn wrote:
compared to what we had ten years ago, talentwise the big difference is Rodney Harrison. Chung is pretty good for the 6-10 games a year he plays, but thats obviously not near enough. It seems positionally they are off a lot, not to mention NOT LOOKING FOR THE BALL and getting flagged for some huge PI penalties


The big difference is Ty Law and Rodney Harrison, but the difference between total garbage like Moore/Arrington and a reliable vet like Otis Smith or Tyrone Poole is pretty big.

I feel like some people around here (not necessarily you) have forgotten just how good those players were - especially Law. When you have one of the top 10 CB's of the last 15 years (which Law easily is), it makes things a lot easier on your entire defense.


That's the thing. Obviously a great CB like Law and a great safety like Harrison would help, but most teams do not have all world DBs. The problem is the practice squad level defensive backs being rolled out on a weekly basis. Even if you replace McCourty with Law and Wilson with Harrison, they cannot cover the entire field and teams would still pick on Arrington and Moore.


McCourty is fine, he's having a pretty good year at both the CB and S spots he's played.

Fill that other CB spot with an average CB and find 2 average safeties and the secondary isn't a huge concern.
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