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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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Location: Parkville, MD
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
why cant we trade up this would be a great year to do so we should get a plethora of picks for all our free agents lost and as everyone points out we get such great value in later rounds so why not trade up for a great defensive player and more importantly a great leader and then trust in ozzie to do his thing and pick up great value in the later rounds

No one has said that we shouldn't or can't trade up. Only that, it has to be the right player at the right price. The value has to be there.

We could use our plethora of picks to trade up from the late 2nd to the early 2nd and get increased value there. We've proven to be pretty good at picking up value at the top of the 2nd, so it might make more sense to go that route than to try and trade our day 1 and day 2 picks (possibly more) for a top 15 prospect.

And honestly, I think this year's ILB class is somewhat similar to last year's running back group in that their are a lot of talented players to be had throughout the draft and while the top prospect is pretty darn good, the 2nd tier isn't really THAT much worse. I never really viewed the difference from Trent Richardson to Doug Martin to be so steep. And just like that class, I think the difference between Te'O and the 2nd tier guys won't be so stark in contrast that it should see us trade up for him. I'm perfectly fine with "settling" for an elite ILB like Arthur Brown/CJ Mosley.


Yep - Te'o is getting all of the attention because of how well ND is doing, but as prospects, the dropoff from him to a guy like Brown/Mosley isn't as steep as the price dropoff will be. Therefore, the other guys present us better value.
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RAVINGMADD


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
why cant we trade up this would be a great year to do so we should get a plethora of picks for all our free agents lost and as everyone points out we get such great value in later rounds so why not trade up for a great defensive player and more importantly a great leader and then trust in ozzie to do his thing and pick up great value in the later rounds

No one has said that we shouldn't or can't trade up. Only that, it has to be the right player at the right price. The value has to be there.

We could use our plethora of picks to trade up from the late 2nd to the early 2nd and get increased value there. We've proven to be pretty good at picking up value at the top of the 2nd, so it might make more sense to go that route than to try and trade our day 1 and day 2 picks (possibly more) for a top 15 prospect.

And honestly, I think this year's ILB class is somewhat similar to last year's running back group in that their are a lot of talented players to be had throughout the draft and while the top prospect is pretty darn good, the 2nd tier isn't really THAT much worse. I never really viewed the difference from Trent Richardson to Doug Martin to be so steep. And just like that class, I think the difference between Te'O and the 2nd tier guys won't be so stark in contrast that it should see us trade up for him. I'm perfectly fine with "settling" for an elite ILB like Arthur Brown/CJ Mosley.


Yep - Te'o is getting all of the attention because of how well ND is doing, but as prospects, the dropoff from him to a guy like Brown/Mosley isn't as steep as the price dropoff will be. Therefore, the other guys present us better value.

As much as I like Te'o, I'm starting to agree with this sentiment. No need to trade up for him when we can wait and still get a great ILB. With Notre Dame in the National Championship and the ridiculous stats he put up, Te'o isn't making it out of the top 10 and might even go top 5. We have no chance at him anyway. And now that I've seen more of Mosley and Brown, I'm pretty confident that they are going to be almost as good. I'd be pretty psyched if either of them fell to us.
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santiagomn8


Joined: 27 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
why cant we trade up this would be a great year to do so we should get a plethora of picks for all our free agents lost and as everyone points out we get such great value in later rounds so why not trade up for a great defensive player and more importantly a great leader and then trust in ozzie to do his thing and pick up great value in the later rounds

No one has said that we shouldn't or can't trade up. Only that, it has to be the right player at the right price. The value has to be there.

We could use our plethora of picks to trade up from the late 2nd to the early 2nd and get increased value there. We've proven to be pretty good at picking up value at the top of the 2nd, so it might make more sense to go that route than to try and trade our day 1 and day 2 picks (possibly more) for a top 15 prospect.

And honestly, I think this year's ILB class is somewhat similar to last year's running back group in that their are a lot of talented players to be had throughout the draft and while the top prospect is pretty darn good, the 2nd tier isn't really THAT much worse. I never really viewed the difference from Trent Richardson to Doug Martin to be so steep. And just like that class, I think the difference between Te'O and the 2nd tier guys won't be so stark in contrast that it should see us trade up for him. I'm perfectly fine with "settling" for an elite ILB like Arthur Brown/CJ Mosley.


Yep - Te'o is getting all of the attention because of how well ND is doing, but as prospects, the dropoff from him to a guy like Brown/Mosley isn't as steep as the price dropoff will be. Therefore, the other guys present us better value.

As much as I like Te'o, I'm starting to agree with this sentiment. No need to trade up for him when we can wait and still get a great ILB. With Notre Dame in the National Championship and the ridiculous stats he put up, Te'o isn't making it out of the top 10 and might even go top 5. We have no chance at him anyway. And now that I've seen more of Mosley and Brown, I'm pretty confident that they are going to be almost as good. I'd be pretty psyched if either of them fell to us.



i understand that the drop off in talent after Manti Teo might not be too big but the biggest reason i want him is cause of his intangibles. His leadership on and off the field could help the transition to post ray lewis era. BUT I believe that if we can get a safety, pass rusher, and one of the better ILB i will pretty happy even without getting Te'o but damn what a shame though.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

santiagomn8 wrote:
RAVINGMADD wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
why cant we trade up this would be a great year to do so we should get a plethora of picks for all our free agents lost and as everyone points out we get such great value in later rounds so why not trade up for a great defensive player and more importantly a great leader and then trust in ozzie to do his thing and pick up great value in the later rounds

No one has said that we shouldn't or can't trade up. Only that, it has to be the right player at the right price. The value has to be there.

We could use our plethora of picks to trade up from the late 2nd to the early 2nd and get increased value there. We've proven to be pretty good at picking up value at the top of the 2nd, so it might make more sense to go that route than to try and trade our day 1 and day 2 picks (possibly more) for a top 15 prospect.

And honestly, I think this year's ILB class is somewhat similar to last year's running back group in that their are a lot of talented players to be had throughout the draft and while the top prospect is pretty darn good, the 2nd tier isn't really THAT much worse. I never really viewed the difference from Trent Richardson to Doug Martin to be so steep. And just like that class, I think the difference between Te'O and the 2nd tier guys won't be so stark in contrast that it should see us trade up for him. I'm perfectly fine with "settling" for an elite ILB like Arthur Brown/CJ Mosley.


Yep - Te'o is getting all of the attention because of how well ND is doing, but as prospects, the dropoff from him to a guy like Brown/Mosley isn't as steep as the price dropoff will be. Therefore, the other guys present us better value.

As much as I like Te'o, I'm starting to agree with this sentiment. No need to trade up for him when we can wait and still get a great ILB. With Notre Dame in the National Championship and the ridiculous stats he put up, Te'o isn't making it out of the top 10 and might even go top 5. We have no chance at him anyway. And now that I've seen more of Mosley and Brown, I'm pretty confident that they are going to be almost as good. I'd be pretty psyched if either of them fell to us.



i understand that the drop off in talent after Manti Teo might not be too big but the biggest reason i want him is cause of his intangibles. His leadership on and off the field could help the transition to post ray lewis era. BUT I believe that if we can get a safety, pass rusher, and one of the better ILB i will pretty happy even without getting Te'o but damn what a shame though.


But those intangibles aren't worth the price we'd have to give up.

And I think the bolded is something that most Ravens fans feel, but I disagree -- just because we've had a Ray Lewis for 17 years doesn't mean we need another similar player to fill his shoes. We don't need another intangible filled, fiery, leader type ILB necessarily to take over -- we just need another leader elsewhere to step up and get a good quality player to fill in, which guys like Mosley and Brown can provide at a much better value. I think we've just been so used to having a certain kind of guy there and many think "Hey, we need another" when in actuality it's more of a nice thing to have rather than a need.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
why cant we trade up this would be a great year to do so we should get a plethora of picks for all our free agents lost and as everyone points out we get such great value in later rounds so why not trade up for a great defensive player and more importantly a great leader and then trust in ozzie to do his thing and pick up great value in the later rounds

No one has said that we shouldn't or can't trade up. Only that, it has to be the right player at the right price. The value has to be there.

We could use our plethora of picks to trade up from the late 2nd to the early 2nd and get increased value there. We've proven to be pretty good at picking up value at the top of the 2nd, so it might make more sense to go that route than to try and trade our day 1 and day 2 picks (possibly more) for a top 15 prospect.

And honestly, I think this year's ILB class is somewhat similar to last year's running back group in that their are a lot of talented players to be had throughout the draft and while the top prospect is pretty darn good, the 2nd tier isn't really THAT much worse. I never really viewed the difference from Trent Richardson to Doug Martin to be so steep. And just like that class, I think the difference between Te'O and the 2nd tier guys won't be so stark in contrast that it should see us trade up for him. I'm perfectly fine with "settling" for an elite ILB like Arthur Brown/CJ Mosley.


Yep - Te'o is getting all of the attention because of how well ND is doing, but as prospects, the dropoff from him to a guy like Brown/Mosley isn't as steep as the price dropoff will be. Therefore, the other guys present us better value.

Exactly and one could certainly argue that the sweet spot of that value would actually be to TRADE DOWN... and not up.

We could conceivably pick up an elite level ILB prospect in the mid-2nd round whilst also gaining some other valuable pieces. If Dion Jordan isn't available at ET, Sheldon Richardson available at 5-tech, nor Keenan Allen/ Terrance Williams at WR... than I think it would make a lot of sense for us to trade down- pick up an extra 3rd and wait for whoever falls between these talented ILBs in the 2nd. If we trade down and pick up a 3rd we could easily trade back up and give ourselves a chance at three 2nd round picks. Seeing what we've been able to do in that round recently, I'd love to have a chance at securing nice talents at our most needed positions. We could exit with a haul of something like: Arthur Brown, Matt Elam, Margus Hunt with 2nd round picks. Still addressing our ILB situation with a high level talent- that could be this year's Lavonte David.
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RAVINGMADD


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

santiagomn8 wrote:
RAVINGMADD wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
why cant we trade up this would be a great year to do so we should get a plethora of picks for all our free agents lost and as everyone points out we get such great value in later rounds so why not trade up for a great defensive player and more importantly a great leader and then trust in ozzie to do his thing and pick up great value in the later rounds

No one has said that we shouldn't or can't trade up. Only that, it has to be the right player at the right price. The value has to be there.

We could use our plethora of picks to trade up from the late 2nd to the early 2nd and get increased value there. We've proven to be pretty good at picking up value at the top of the 2nd, so it might make more sense to go that route than to try and trade our day 1 and day 2 picks (possibly more) for a top 15 prospect.

And honestly, I think this year's ILB class is somewhat similar to last year's running back group in that their are a lot of talented players to be had throughout the draft and while the top prospect is pretty darn good, the 2nd tier isn't really THAT much worse. I never really viewed the difference from Trent Richardson to Doug Martin to be so steep. And just like that class, I think the difference between Te'O and the 2nd tier guys won't be so stark in contrast that it should see us trade up for him. I'm perfectly fine with "settling" for an elite ILB like Arthur Brown/CJ Mosley.


Yep - Te'o is getting all of the attention because of how well ND is doing, but as prospects, the dropoff from him to a guy like Brown/Mosley isn't as steep as the price dropoff will be. Therefore, the other guys present us better value.

As much as I like Te'o, I'm starting to agree with this sentiment. No need to trade up for him when we can wait and still get a great ILB. With Notre Dame in the National Championship and the ridiculous stats he put up, Te'o isn't making it out of the top 10 and might even go top 5. We have no chance at him anyway. And now that I've seen more of Mosley and Brown, I'm pretty confident that they are going to be almost as good. I'd be pretty psyched if either of them fell to us.



i understand that the drop off in talent after Manti Teo might not be too big but the biggest reason i want him is cause of his intangibles. His leadership on and off the field could help the transition to post ray lewis era. BUT I believe that if we can get a safety, pass rusher, and one of the better ILB i will pretty happy even without getting Te'o but damn what a shame though.

I agree, but from what I've read, Brown could provide that type of leadership. And Mosley really hasn't had the opportunity to be a leader on a stacked Alabama defense full of guys who could be leaders on other teams.

And not all leaders have to be vocal guys like Ray Lewis. If a guy can lead by example and let his play do most of the talking, he can be just as much of a leader. This defense will find a vocal leader regardless, and it doesn't necessarily have to be an ILB to fill that role.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously I don't want Ozzie to follow my mindset, as this is the worst way to draft IMO (BPA all day), butttttttt I would love to see us get a guy who has elite athleticism at DE who falls because of work ethic concerns or something like that. Calais Campbell is the guy I have in mind. Would have loved him in 2008 (obviously happy we took Rice, though). Maybe a guy who is hyper-athletic, just raw, in the mold of JPP perhaps. Clearly these are examples of this sort of player working out, but it's my wishlist and i can ignore bust rate if I want.

I think a guy like that would be a huge addition along with Suggs, Ngata, Upshaw, etc. in the front seven.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
Obviously I don't want Ozzie to follow my mindset, as this is the worst way to draft IMO (BPA all day), butttttttt I would love to see us get a guy who has elite athleticism at DE who falls because of work ethic concerns or something like that. Calais Campbell is the guy I have in mind. Would have loved him in 2008 (obviously happy we took Rice, though). Maybe a guy who is hyper-athletic, just raw, in the mold of JPP perhaps. Clearly these are examples of this sort of player working out, but it's my wishlist and i can ignore bust rate if I want.

I think a guy like that would be a huge addition along with Suggs, Ngata, Upshaw, etc. in the front seven.


You may be talking about Ezekial Ansah then. I'm not quite sure if he has that elite athleticism though.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
Obviously I don't want Ozzie to follow my mindset, as this is the worst way to draft IMO (BPA all day), butttttttt I would love to see us get a guy who has elite athleticism at DE who falls because of work ethic concerns or something like that. Calais Campbell is the guy I have in mind. Would have loved him in 2008 (obviously happy we took Rice, though). Maybe a guy who is hyper-athletic, just raw, in the mold of JPP perhaps. Clearly these are examples of this sort of player working out, but it's my wishlist and i can ignore bust rate if I want.

I think a guy like that would be a huge addition along with Suggs, Ngata, Upshaw, etc. in the front seven.


You may be talking about Ezekial Ansah then. I'm not quite sure if he has that elite athleticism though.


Man, 6-6, 270 guy, decent numbers on a good D, ran track, sounds like an overall good student (majoring in actuarial science with a math minor, little better than kinesiology for an athlete ) Cool

I like him.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not opposed in principle to trading up if you think the guy you're getting is a slam dunk elite talent, though in general I tend to believe that stockpiling draft choices and pooling your risk is a more prudent strategy and allows you to build a deeper team that is better equipped to, say, go 9-2 even when it's ravaged by injuries.

But banking an entire draft on an ILB, when that position continues to diminish in importance? No thanks. You can coax good linebacker play by building up your defensive line (as we've seen just in the turnaround between the beginning of this season and our current play from the Ravens). If we were to move up to snag a defensive player, the only kinds of players I would want are a dynamic defensive lineman or a freakish edge rusher. Those are transformative players for a defense. Inside linebackers are more and more complimentary pieces in the evolving NFL.
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marshall413


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
I'm not opposed in principle to trading up if you think the guy you're getting is a slam dunk elite talent, though in general I tend to believe that stockpiling draft choices and pooling your risk is a more prudent strategy and allows you to build a deeper team that is better equipped to, say, go 9-2 even when it's ravaged by injuries.

But banking an entire draft on an ILB, when that position continues to diminish in importance? No thanks. You can coax good linebacker play by building up your defensive line (as we've seen just in the turnaround between the beginning of this season and our current play from the Ravens). If we were to move up to snag a defensive player, the only kinds of players I would want are a dynamic defensive lineman or a freakish edge rusher. Those are transformative players for a defense. Inside linebackers are more and more complimentary pieces in the evolving NFL.



Agree 100%. In this NFL the areas of defense that are most important are edge rushers and Cover corners. Middle linebackers roaming the middle delivering punishing hits to anyone going over the middle only gets you fined and penalized 15 yards now. The only way the Ravens can trade up in the draft if a DE that is a freak falls to where Ozzie thinks is perfect value. ILB's are becoming a position where you can insert guys that specialize in a certain area, ie run stopper on 1st down or short distance, pass cover ILB on 3rd down or long distance.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
I'm not opposed in principle to trading up if you think the guy you're getting is a slam dunk elite talent, though in general I tend to believe that stockpiling draft choices and pooling your risk is a more prudent strategy and allows you to build a deeper team that is better equipped to, say, go 9-2 even when it's ravaged by injuries.

But banking an entire draft on an ILB, when that position continues to diminish in importance? No thanks. You can coax good linebacker play by building up your defensive line (as we've seen just in the turnaround between the beginning of this season and our current play from the Ravens). If we were to move up to snag a defensive player, the only kinds of players I would want are a dynamic defensive lineman or a freakish edge rusher. Those are transformative players for a defense. Inside linebackers are more and more complimentary pieces in the evolving NFL.

Agreed. If we're going to move up into the top 10 to take a defensive player, I want to take one of those dominant DT prospects like Star Lotuleilei or Johnathan Hankins... and even then, it might make better since to save some draft resources and trade just inside the top 15-20 to where it might put us in comfortable range to get a guy like Sheldon Richardson.

I'm certainly not against trading up, but if we're going to trade up, I agree, it should be for a slam dunk player at a premium position and not an ILB... especially not when its such a deep class as this one (though it took a blow with the Mauti injury). Heck there's so much talent at the position that I keep forgetting about some of the players- be it AJ Klein or Andrew Jackson.
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dcarey20


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm extremely high on Teo (like almost everyone else).

And let me first say that I completely agree with the points made about holding on to picks, and for almost any other player I would have that view. But honestly, I'd pay a pretty hefty price to go up and get Manti Teo. Of course we've still got to see how he does in the pre-draft process and everything, because if he tests well he could find himself in the top 5 range IMO.

Let's say he's in the 10 range (right around what Patrick Willis was coming out). If it would be enough for a team to go for, I wouldn't hesitate to give up something like:

2013 1st (I'm assuming we'll be around 28-32)
2013 2nd
2013 4th
2014 2nd

for a 1st rounder in the 8-10 range to go get Teo. I think he's that good and I think he would be a PERFECT player to come into our defense and flourish.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcarey20 wrote:
I'm extremely high on Teo (like almost everyone else).

And let me first say that I completely agree with the points made about holding on to picks, and for almost any other player I would have that view. But honestly, I'd pay a pretty hefty price to go up and get Manti Teo. Of course we've still got to see how he does in the pre-draft process and everything, because if he tests well he could find himself in the top 5 range IMO.

Let's say he's in the 10 range (right around what Patrick Willis was coming out). If it would be enough for a team to go for, I wouldn't hesitate to give up something like:

2013 1st (I'm assuming we'll be around 28-32)
2013 2nd
2013 4th
2014 2nd

for a 1st rounder in the 8-10 range to go get Teo. I think he's that good and I think he would be a PERFECT player to come into our defense and flourish.

If I'm giving up all of those picks for Te'O... He better walk on air- not just water. And speaking of water... He better find a way to turn it into Super Bowls rings... Not wine. That and he better leap football fields in a single bound.
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santiagomn8


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With everything that has gone down in the last few weeks with T'eo actually does effect his draft stock and he drops to us without the need to have to trade up would you take him in the the first? I honestly don't think he will drop that far but for arguement a sake if he does drop to us I would take him but if he and Minter were there at the pick idk cause I am developing a hue man cruch when it comes to minter

What do you guys think?


Last edited by santiagomn8 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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