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Sloppy28


Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 420
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After last night it is hard to disagree with the fact that we need help at MLB and WLB in the worst way.. Brinkley and Henderson can't cover and they can't stop/tackle a good running back.

If Manti Te'o is there with our first pick (which won't be #19 if we keep playing the way we did last night) then I am taking him. If we had someone like him last night to stop the run once in awhile then the defense isn't on the field NEAR as long as they were all night.
If he isn't there, I am going BPA at guard, defensive tackle, or WR. Right now, it's either d-tackle or guard if Warmack is there.

Then, in the second round, I am taking Terrance Williams, Cordarrelle Patterson, Quinton Patton, Marquess Wilson, or Marcus Davis. Which ever one is there and is ranked the highest pending the finish of the season and combine.

If we go Warmack and then WR, I am going LB in the 3rd with someone like Michael Mauti, Nico Johnson, Arthur Brown, Gerald Hodges, or Khaseem Greene of any of them are still around. If there is a solid DT still available, then I take him instead.

If we end up getting Te'o in the first, we take BPA WR or Guard in the second and then the other in the 3rd.

It is clear to me that our 3 biggest needs are at LB, WR, and OG. Yes, DT is still a need and a primary one, but the other 3 to me jump out as bigger needs.
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 6177
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikefan79 wrote:
milanb wrote:
[UMN] wrote:
2013: Unless Ponder completely implodes he will be the starter next year.



If Ponder keeps playing the way he's been playing the past five games, I don't think he's going to last till the end of this year as starter.


When we have receivers getting open and Ponder shows an innability to get them the ball then I'll be all over a change at QB. Right now imo Ponder is only a small part of the problem.


Did you watch the Tampa Bay game? The difference between Josh Freeman and Christian Ponder was night and day. At one point the Bucs made five straight 3rd Down conversions. Three of them on really difficult downfield throws by Freeman, with pass rushers in his face, all of them into tight coverage. Throws that Ponder doesn't make in a million years.

Even in the Arizona game, John Skelton looked a lot better than Ponder in spite of much heavier pressure by the Minnesota DL.

It's all well and good to blame the receivers and the pass protection but the opposing defence gets paid too. A big part of playing QB at this level is dealing with pressure and throwing into tight coverage without turning the ball over.
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Sloppy28


Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 420
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Vikefan79 wrote:
milanb wrote:
[UMN] wrote:
2013: Unless Ponder completely implodes he will be the starter next year.



If Ponder keeps playing the way he's been playing the past five games, I don't think he's going to last till the end of this year as starter.


When we have receivers getting open and Ponder shows an innability to get them the ball then I'll be all over a change at QB. Right now imo Ponder is only a small part of the problem.


Did you watch the Tampa Bay game? The difference between Josh Freeman and Christian Ponder was night and day. At one point the Bucs made five straight 3rd Down conversions. Three of them on really difficult downfield throws by Freeman, with pass rushers in his face, all of them into tight coverage. Throws that Ponder doesn't make in a million years.

Even in the Arizona game, John Skelton looked a lot better than Ponder in spite of much heavier pressure by the Minnesota DL.

It's all well and good to blame the receivers and the pass protection but the opposing defence gets paid too. A big part of playing QB at this level is dealing with pressure and throwing into tight coverage without turning the ball over.


I couldn't agree more. I just have yet to see from Ponder what I keep waiting to see - him show me he is a franchise QB. I support him and there are problems as to why he isn't succeeding (OG,WR,play-calling) but he just doesn't make those tight throws down the field. I don't remember the last time I was impressed with one of his throws over 10 yards. Last night Freeman made multiple throws where only his guy could catch it, with pressure in his face.
Having wrestled all my life you can tell when someone is mentally broken, and last night when they showed Ponder on TV at the end of the game, he was broken. I don't see the fire in his eyes that I do with other QBs when the pressure is on. I'm pulling for Ponder don't get me wrong, but I have my doubts right now and would LOVE to be wrong.
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PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

17 starts....did you see Freeman last year, when they had no Ol and no WR?
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
17 starts....did you see Freeman last year, when they had no Ol and no WR?


Yes, Freeman struggled last year, but he also played really, really well in 2010 and had shown a lot of leadership and mental toughness very early his career. I think he already has at least six 4th Quarter comebacks to his name. Most of them with not a lot of talent around him.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh Freeman's 1st year (2009): 10 G, 158-290, 54.5%, 1855 yds, 10 TDs, 18 INTs

Christian Ponder's 1st year: 11 G, 158-291, 54.3%, 1853 yds, 13 TDs, 13 INTs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Freeman's 2nd year (2010): 16 G, 291-474, 61.4%, 3,451 yds, 25 TDs, 6 INTs

Christian Ponder's 2nd year (proj): 16 G, 342-524, 65.3%, 3,486 yds, 20 TDs, 14 INTs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a whole lot of difference between the 2 in years 1 and 2...except for 1 category.
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thestonedkoala


Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 4051
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:


First, firing the entire coaching staff and bringing in a college coach with no pro experience is the worst idea, by far.


Not really. A lot of teams were looking at Kelly last year and more teams are looking at college coaches now. Jim Harbaugh had no experience as an NFL head coach (a year as a QB coach for Oakland). Pete Carroll busted as an NFL coach.

Quote:

Kelly is a college coach, that's what he is. The only worse choices for a NFL coach would be bringing back Bobby Petrino and Steve Spurrier. Kelly doesn't run a pro-style offense at Oregon, so why would you expect his offense to be a success at the NFL level?


Because it's a lot different, plus Kelly has shown to be a very good head coach at Oregon. He's had success and I think he's shown enough adaptability to be a good head coach in the NFL. I think that given some teams were looking at him last year and probably again this year, I would take some exes opinion over any fan forum.

Quote:

Second, Kyle Williams is not a free agent. He signed a 6-year extension with Buffalo last season.


Thought so.

Quote:

Third, Joshua Cribbs is strictly a returner, he's never proven to be a quality receiver. Why bring him in?


Free up Harvin and bring in another speed weapon on offense if we bring in Kelly.

Quote:

Finally Kenny Phillips gets injured more often than the number of times fainting goats fall down in an hour. That would be a terrible move.


If he's cheap. He's had some good season, some bad seasons. He's brings in depth at the safety position.
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Freeman's 2nd year (2010): 16 G, 291-474, 61.4%, 3,451 yds, 25 TDs, 6 INTs

Christian Ponder's 2nd year (proj): 16 G, 342-524, 65.3%, 3,486 yds, 20 TDs, 14 INTs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a whole lot of difference between the 2 in years 1 and 2...except for 1 category.


Do you really think that Ponder is going to put up the same numbers in the second half of the season as he did in the first? I mean, given the schedule and the way that opposing defences have adjusted to what the Vikings have been doing?
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Freakout


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 3109
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
disaacs wrote:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Freeman's 2nd year (2010): 16 G, 291-474, 61.4%, 3,451 yds, 25 TDs, 6 INTs

Christian Ponder's 2nd year (proj): 16 G, 342-524, 65.3%, 3,486 yds, 20 TDs, 14 INTs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a whole lot of difference between the 2 in years 1 and 2...except for 1 category.


Do you really think that Ponder is going to put up the same numbers in the second half of the season as he did in the first? I mean, given the schedule and the way that opposing defences have adjusted to what the Vikings have been doing?


I fully expect Musgrave to make adjustments! Ok not really.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
disaacs wrote:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Freeman's 2nd year (2010): 16 G, 291-474, 61.4%, 3,451 yds, 25 TDs, 6 INTs

Christian Ponder's 2nd year (proj): 16 G, 342-524, 65.3%, 3,486 yds, 20 TDs, 14 INTs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a whole lot of difference between the 2 in years 1 and 2...except for 1 category.


Do you really think that Ponder is going to put up the same numbers in the second half of the season as he did in the first? I mean, given the schedule and the way that opposing defences have adjusted to what the Vikings have been doing?


Certainly, I have no idea, but that projection is just based on what he's done so far. But, what I can tell you is that Freeman, in his first 8 games of his 2nd year, had 4 games of under 200 yds and 0 games over 300. Ponder this year, has 3 games under 200 yds and 1 game over 300. The reality is that, statistically, both he and Freeman are awfully similar.
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thestonedkoala


Joined: 28 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freakout wrote:
milanb wrote:
disaacs wrote:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Freeman's 2nd year (2010): 16 G, 291-474, 61.4%, 3,451 yds, 25 TDs, 6 INTs

Christian Ponder's 2nd year (proj): 16 G, 342-524, 65.3%, 3,486 yds, 20 TDs, 14 INTs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a whole lot of difference between the 2 in years 1 and 2...except for 1 category.


Do you really think that Ponder is going to put up the same numbers in the second half of the season as he did in the first? I mean, given the schedule and the way that opposing defences have adjusted to what the Vikings have been doing?


I fully expect Musgrave to make adjustments! Ok not really.


Blame the head coach, not Musgrave.
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Polaris


Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finish about 6-10, trade the first, second, and third round pick if you have to in order to move up to take Geno Smith or Matt Barkley. You just don't win in this league without a gamechanger QB. How smart does Jacksonville look for trading away the opportunity for RGIII?

The Vikings had a chance last year to trade up for RGIII. Instead, they've wasted another year of Peterson's career developing Ponder who may or may not be the answer. Why not get a guy in there who IS the answer?

It's hard to find these guys, but you don't win without them so you do whatever you have to do to get that elite QB.

If Ponder becomes a great QB, you can make a trade. But if he doesn't, it's gonna hurt that the Vikings failed to aggressively go after guys like RGIII and Geno Smith and Matt Barkley....all of whom are likely, IMO, to have better careers than Ponder.
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[UMN]


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Because:
1. we don't know that Ponder is NOT the answer at this point.
2. we don't know that a rookie IS the answer.

You don't draft a QB at #12 and give up on him after 17 starts. Ponder should (and will) get the rest of this year and next year to prove himself.
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt this team gives up on Ponder. He has played bad under pressure, but does have good moments. Only way I dont see Ponder playing next year is a new coaching staff. Also I guess if Ponder completely implodes, and I mean playing like he did versus the cardinals in about 4 more games and the other 4 arent much better.

Id much rather get a LB and WR. Let Ponder do one more year. No more excuses of the talent around him or experience, and then if we need a QB, we have a team around them from the beginning.
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Sloppy28


Joined: 16 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
Josh Freeman's 1st year (2009): 10 G, 158-290, 54.5%, 1855 yds, 10 TDs, 18 INTs

Christian Ponder's 1st year: 11 G, 158-291, 54.3%, 1853 yds, 13 TDs, 13 INTs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Freeman's 2nd year (2010): 16 G, 291-474, 61.4%, 3,451 yds, 25 TDs, 6 INTs

Christian Ponder's 2nd year (proj): 16 G, 342-524, 65.3%, 3,486 yds, 20 TDs, 14 INTs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a whole lot of difference between the 2 in years 1 and 2...except for 1 category.


Come on now... We all know stats are near meaningless in all actuality.. A lot of Ponders passing yards come in garbage time when we are down by double digit numbers and they are in prevent D. It's what Ponder and Freeman do differently at the beginning of the game when the pressure is on. Or at the end of the game when you need a game winning drive, is Ponder going to be able to be that guy? Can he lead a drive down field with 1:50 left on the clock and we are down by 6? I don't know. I'm not sure I would want Ponder in there...
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