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Fixing the Offensive Line (Again)
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Fixing the Offensive Line (Again) Reply with quote

This is a conversation that has popped up a few times in the last couple of years and I think it will continue to do so until the offensive line is actually improved. We discussed this a bit in the game thread but I feel like it's an important and interesting enough topic to have its own thread. How would you go about fixing Baltimore's offensive line?

To me this is something that will probably have to wait until this upcoming off-season. Everybody but McKinnie (FA) and Harewood (RFA) will still be under contract. That leaves a depth chart looking somewhat like this:

LT Ė Oher
LG Ė Williams
C Ė Birk, Gradkowski
RG Ė Yanda
RT - Osemele, Reid

Obviously the weak spots are Williams and Birk so I will focus on those positions first.

At center I wouldn't go out and sign somebody else in free agency or spend another draft pick on a prospect. In my opinion the team needs to see what they have in Gradkowski before exploring other options. It's not like there will be any viable options at center in free agency anyways. Spending another draft pick on the position so soon would be a waste especially if it was anything higher than the 4th round pick they used on Gradkowski. Now they have the privilege of watching him in practice every week so he might look like complete crap but I haven't heard anything like that (positive or negative) thus far so I don't think that's the case. Preseason games don't mean much to me but Gradkowski did look competent when he played in them so that's a tiny bit reassuring. Being mentored by Birk for a season has to be a good thing too. I also like the physical tools Gradkowski brings to the table. Heís not a top athlete by any means but he was what you look for in a center. I donít think Birk retires but itís a possibility. My hope is that they hand the reigns to Gradkowski and keep Birk as a mentor and decent backup.

Left guard is a different animal. The only future Williams has in the NFL is on the reserve/retired list and I don't expect him to be on the Ravens roster next season. This isn't a good free agent class for guards either so I don't think that is a likely route. Even if there were quality players hitting the market I'm not sure it would be an option because I don't think they will have much cap room to work with. However, this does look like a VERY good draft class for interior offensive linemen. The question then becomes whether or not you want to invest a quality pick (top three rounds) on the position with the defense looking the way it does and the possible need at wide-receiver too. As of right now I would rather move Osemele or Reid to left guard and have the other guy play right tackle. My preference is Osemele partly because I havenít been impressed by his play at right tackle and partly because I think Reid is better suited on the outside. What Osemele does well when he is on his game translates extremely well to the interior offensive line and he wonít have problems with guys coming off the edge from that position either. I donít think Harewood is a starter in the league but heís a good guy to have as depth and it would be a big surprise if the team didnít place a tender on him this off-season.

After center and left guard the position on the offensive line Iím most worried about is left tackle. Oher hasnít been terrible this year but I donít think heís been particularly good either. There wonít and probably shouldnít be any real efforts by the team to look for a new starter at left tackle this off-season but next year is the last year left on Oherís contract and I donít think itís a sure-thing that they want to keep him in Baltimore after that. The team might look for a developmental prospect in the mid-later rounds in this upcoming draft though. With McKinnie almost definitely not coming back thereís a need for another guy that can play the position. Harewood was drafted as a left tackle but based on what we saw from him at left guard I wouldnít want him on the edge. Adding another veteran on a cheap contract is possible too although itís a hard position to address in free agency whether youíre looking for a starter or quality backup.

That leaves right tackle and right guard. There is absolutely no need to look for a right guard at all unless itís a backup and even then I think it would be a guy that primarily plays another position but could play there if Yanda went down. At right tackle I would go with Jah Reid since Osemele is moving to left guard in my scenario. I really liked him at that position coming out of college and they need to see if they spent a third round pick son something more than a backup right tackle. Itís not like he lacks talent or has failed on the field. The injury he suffered at the beginning of training camp lingered well into the regular season and that all but eliminated his chance of starting in the first half this season. I think that he could get some looks as a starter in the second half if the offensive line continues to be an embarrassment but next season I would definitely put him in the lineup. The Ravens might look for a cheap veteran backup or a developmental pick at this position but I think itís more likely that they rely on Oher to be the primary swing-tackle so an addition at left tackle seems more likely in my opinion.

So this is what my offensive line depth chart would look like for next year:

LT Ė Oher, (cheap veteran or developmental rookie)
LG Ė Osemele, Harewood
C Ė Gradkowski, Birk
RG Ė Yanda
RT Ė Reid

Not a whole lot of turnover in terms of guys on the roster but thatís three positions that have a different starter at it. The only thing I'm slightly worried about is that there isn't a backup to Yanda I would feel confident with but Harewood might be decent there if needed. There are only eight players instead of the nine that they have this year but thatís a fairly normal number of offensive linemen to keep on the active roster. I ask again, what would you do to fix the Ravens offensive line?
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pretty much agree with everything. I'd like to see KO kicked inside as I think he'd be an animal in there. I like Reid's length on the outside and if he can stay healthy, I'd like to see what he can offer.

I don't foresee either Williams nor Birk on the roster next season, so I think we'd see another FA come in at some point.

But other than that, I agree with everything. I think we should look into a new OL coach as well as Moeller doesn't seem to have anyone really improving under his coaching, IMO. We seem to struggle with our OL a lot.
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RavensTillIDie


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any chance we could see this Oher/KO/Gradkowski/Yanda/Reid lineup following the bye? Laughing
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LT - I think Oher has actually done pretty well so far this season. He's improved on those penalties he was incurring, and he's looked really good at times. I think some of the pressure that's come from that side has been more on the LG than him. Is he a premier LT in the league? No. But I think he's solid enough, with the right guy standing next to him.

I wouldn't draft this position this year, based on what I've seen currently. Though I'm sure McKinnie's not going to be back. If he doesn't retire, there are several teams with no O-line to speak of who would take him (Bears, Cardinals for example).

LG - This is the one area on the O-line that I think they could spend a quality draft pick on. I don't like Williams. Don't think he's that good at either pass or run blocking, and he's already 35. I don't see him being in Baltimore next year.

I have quite liked Ramon Harewood, more for the potential he's shown than for being anything like the finished article. I think he needs more games, for the Ravens to be sure if he's going to be a viable long term contender for the position. Remember, he'd never even played guard until this pre-season. I think he'll definitely be here next year.

I certainly don't have any objections to Osemele starting at LG if Jah Reid or someone else can play better than him at RT.

C - Birk is done. Has to be. He's a shadow of the player he was even a year ago. And the memory of Vince Wilfork tossing him about in the AFC Championship Game last year lingers. Is Gradkowski his replacement? It doesn't seem like anyone knows, but the guy needs to see the field at some point, for them to be sure of anything. From what I've read, it sounds more like it's an issue of size and strength rather than a lack of ability. Strength can be worked on, and size isn't too much of a problem for a Center if his technique is good enough.

The Ravens passed on bigger name Centers in the draft, and went for this guy, so they clearly saw something in him. Let's hope they were right.

RG - Obviously set here, in terms of who starts. Yanda has been a bit up and down this year, but he's still one of the best Guards in the NFL. Not much to talk about, with this one.

RT - I've liked Osemele at Right Tackle. I think his run blocking has been really good, and he's shown some nice moments in pass blocking too. It's a learning experience, and he's been caught out occasionally, but it seems like he's improving.

I can't recall ever seeing Jah Reid on the field, so I can't say too much about what he can and can't do. Questions that need to be answered, I guess. If he can outplay Osemele, then I'd happily take him as the starting RT.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with McR above.

I just haven't seen enough of Reid at the professional level to really feel confident in him as our RT. I obviously wouldn't mind to see him play RT... and would actually love it if he could even display as much potential there as KO... because KO looked pretty darn good in preseason (though he did have some experience issues that could be cleaned up) having never played the position before coming to the Ravens.

That said, if no great defensive talent that I like falls to our pick- I take Barrett Jones and don't look back. The man was All American at LG, won the Outland trophy at LT, and now plays center and looks like one of the best in the nation... that's versatility. Chance Warmack might be the better guard-only prospect, but I'd prefer Jones' versatility to fix any issues we have with our line.

I like Jones to plug in and play RT for us. He has more than enough athleticism for that position, I think he'd be a better pass blocker and certainly a better technician in comparison to KO/Reid... and if Gradkowski fails at center, then Jones could plug in there and KO/Reid go for LG/RT. Either way, I think Jones has 2nd team All Pro potential at either spot. I think he'd be the Marshal Yanda of RTs... not seasonally dominant like you'll see from a Carl Nicks, but throughout his career is consistently elite. I think he's the next Jordan Gross, elite RT... pretty good LT... only he also plays guard and center. Heck, if we pass up on a defensive player in this draft that I like... Jones is the only prospect that I would see worthy of that honor... I feel confident that he'd fix our OL issues with his versatility.

And in terms of Reid, if Jones plays RT... well, spending a 3rd round pick on making sure the OT depth is great wouldn't be the worst pick ever made. He'd just be a victim of circumstance... and who knows maybe he comes back for 2014 and we kick Jones over to LT and he FINALLY gets the start at RT.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You speak too much sense c0 Very Happy

I agree entirely with everything you've said - including wanting Reid at RT and KO at LG. KO had already given up 3 sacks that were purely his fault according to this article by a guy who watches every sack in every game before last weeks game vs the Texans. His strengths match up far better to that of an IOL than a OT and he should play there unless Reid at RT is far worse than Harewood/Williams are at LG (which I would hope is not the case given that Reid was a 3rd round pick we traded up for just a year ago).
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm going to have to say that this new depth chart created by c0 makes tooooooooo much sense to actually happen Laughing
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem with the new depth chart is that KO isn't as experienced as Bobbie Williams inside. He won't recognize those stunts and/or communicate as effectively to Oher the changes in pass protection.

So while KO might be a more dominant option at LG, while he'll display great natural strengths for the position, he could prove to be less consistent and/or aid in less preparedness by our OL- especially in louder stadiums on the road. Our no-huddle has looked more effective on the road since switching to Williams (small sample size, I know) but what if some of that has to do with better OL communication?

We could potentially be sacrificing consistency for dominance. Williams hasn't really played THAT bad outside of a few snaps where he's just dominated physically or made to look stupid (the 2nd sack given up to Smith). But generally speaking against the Texans the majority of the problems came from McKinnie giving the edge WAAAYYY too fast to edge rushers so that stepping up in the pocket couldn't even help. And then on the other side, Oher wasn't doing much to keep the Texans pass rushers from jumping up and batting down passes.

So really, I thought Williams giving up those two sacks... similar to the sack against the Cowboys' Ware... made him look worse than he actually was in that game. He was pretty consistent. I honestly don't see the big difference from Grubbs to our current LG play with Williams. We're much better at run blocking (especially at the POA) but more inconsistent in pass blocking, but not much more than a marginal difference... a difference of a few sacks but not much more pressures. No question in my mind we made the right choice and letting Grubbs walk... he was overrated for his contract demands and definitely not the elite guard we thought we were drafting.

Can the LG spot be improved with a guy who can be consistently dominant or just all around consistent PLUS a great run blocker, indeed... but I think Williams might be a little bit better than what the perception is of him at this point. But I suppose I'll have to rewatch the game paying strict attention to him to see if I'm mistaken. But Grubbs didn't do much better against this front in the AFCCG... in fact he got no push in the running game, I'd argue that he was just as bad.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
The only problem with the new depth chart is that KO isn't as experienced as Bobbie Williams inside. He won't recognize those stunts and/or communicate as effectively to Oher the changes in pass protection.

So while KO might be a more dominant option at LG, while he'll display great natural strengths for the position, he could prove to be less consistent and/or aid in less preparedness by our OL- especially in louder stadiums on the road. Our no-huddle has looked more effective on the road since switching to Williams (small sample size, I know) but what if some of that has to do with better OL communication?
Maybe I'm wrong but I think coordinator is talking about next year when he's discussing KO as a left guard.

I tend to think that Osemele at left guard, along with a new left tackle brought in either through the draft/free agency, and then Oher at RT could be our best option for next year, with Gradkowski probably manning center.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-ravens-had-preliminary-contract-talks-with-michael-oher-20121024,0,3277130.story

Quote:
The Ravens have conducted initial contract talks this fall with offensive tackle Michael Oher regarding a potential extension.

Although no deal is imminent at this time, the Ravens are expected to revisit the talks with agent Jimmy Sexton going forward.

"We've had some preliminary discussions with his agent," Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome said.

Oher, 26, is under contract through the 2013 season.


Well it looks like Oher is going to be a part of the equation after next season. It's nice to know something about the direction of Baltimore's offensive line besides Yanda continuing to dominate at right guard. For any of us draftniks this bit of news seems like it would take offensive tackle off the board for any early picks. I don't think this means Oher will be back for sure but it definitely sounds like it if the team wants to start extension talks this soon.

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong but I think coordinator is talking about next year when he's discussing KO as a left guard.

I tend to think that Osemele at left guard, along with a new left tackle brought in either through the draft/free agency, and then Oher at RT could be our best option for next year, with Gradkowski probably manning center.


Yes I'm looking at this as starting next season more so than this season. I doubt they make any major changes now.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong but I think coordinator is talking about next year when he's discussing KO as a left guard.

I tend to think that Osemele at left guard, along with a new left tackle brought in either through the draft/free agency, and then Oher at RT could be our best option for next year, with Gradkowski probably manning center.

I understand that he's referring to next year. I was moreso making a general point. Because I saw it said somewhere on these forums that someone thought we should make this switch coming off of our bye week.

So I was simply mentioning that my only problem with it, is consistency/experience- at this point in time. I don't disagree that the position can be upgraded in the future with more time to prepare KO at LG.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I wouldn't really be too in favor of making these kinds of changes during the season. It would be nice to see something different out there but that's a major shift along the offensive line. With Osemele coming off of an injury it's probably not the best idea to move him around. Depending on the severity of his sprained ankle we might see Jah Reid out there anyways.

Mancunian Raven wrote:
C - Birk is done. Has to be. He's a shadow of the player he was even a year ago. And the memory of Vince Wilfork tossing him about in the AFC Championship Game last year lingers. Is Gradkowski his replacement? It doesn't seem like anyone knows, but the guy needs to see the field at some point, for them to be sure of anything. From what I've read, it sounds more like it's an issue of size and strength rather than a lack of ability. Strength can be worked on, and size isn't too much of a problem for a Center if his technique is good enough.


I don't think size is much of a problem for Gradkowski. At 6'3 300 (based off the team website) that's a fairly average size for the position and Birk is barely bigger than him. I have no doubt that Gradkowski will bulk up a bit too since he's in a NFL conditioning program now. I'm not sure but I would bet it's a bit more intense and effective than anything he went through at Delaware. I think he has to learn a bit more about the center position and some of the intangibles needed there in the NFL since he wasn't a full-time center in college who split time between that position and guard. Learning under Birk is great for Gradkowski.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-ravens-had-preliminary-contract-talks-with-michael-oher-20121024,0,3277130.story

Quote:
The Ravens have conducted initial contract talks this fall with offensive tackle Michael Oher regarding a potential extension.

Although no deal is imminent at this time, the Ravens are expected to revisit the talks with agent Jimmy Sexton going forward.

"We've had some preliminary discussions with his agent," Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome said.

Oher, 26, is under contract through the 2013 season.


Well it looks like Oher is going to be a part of the equation after next season. It's nice to know something about the direction of Baltimore's offensive line besides Yanda continuing to dominate at right guard. For any of us draftniks this bit of news seems like it would take offensive tackle off the board for any early picks. I don't think this means Oher will be back for sure but it definitely sounds like it if the team wants to start extension talks this soon.

I think this is interesting. If the team is interested in doing preliminary talks right now I think it says more about not only how the team views Oher in their plans, but where they view him... and that's at LT. There's no doubt that we've moved him around a lot. He also came into the league looking pretty raw as a LT technique-wise. He had only played LT for something like one season before going pro, spending the majority of the time protecting a left handed QB on the right side (in HS I believe) and then playing RT in college up until his senior season IIRC... then we kept switching him back and forth. But there's no question that Oher has made some obvious strides going into this season. We've seen him virtually shutdown Chandler Jones and DeMarcus Ware for much of the game with not much help. And while he also had a bad game against the Chiefs and Tamba Hali for two sacks... and Philly's Trent Cole... he's been far more consistent than any year since his rookie season to this point... and much better than when we last played him at LT, so I think that's cause for optimism. I don't think he's necessarily done improving either. He has the athleticism and strength to continue to get better. So his improvement would fix our LT situation and the team obviously feels he has the ability to improve there.

On the bolded point, I actually think it's somewhat the opposite. If we're going to select an OL... specifically a RT, I think we'll do it early. Jah Reid has potential, obviously.. so if we're going to go after an OT I'd think we'd go with someone with more potential or is a more surefire bet to succeed... like a Barrett Jones in the 1st. But if we're going for depth at OT on the left side to back Oher, I think we're probably most likely to go the veteran route. Because not many project rookie LTs are going to be able to start on the blindside... it would even be a stretch to start them at RT. So I'd think if we go OT specifically, it'll be higher up for a probowl level starter with maybe taking a flyer on a late round guy later in the draft for depth/practice squad development.
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:


Mancunian Raven wrote:
C - Birk is done. Has to be. He's a shadow of the player he was even a year ago. And the memory of Vince Wilfork tossing him about in the AFC Championship Game last year lingers. Is Gradkowski his replacement? It doesn't seem like anyone knows, but the guy needs to see the field at some point, for them to be sure of anything. From what I've read, it sounds more like it's an issue of size and strength rather than a lack of ability. Strength can be worked on, and size isn't too much of a problem for a Center if his technique is good enough.


I don't think size is much of a problem for Gradkowski. At 6'3 300 (based off the team website) that's a fairly average size for the position and Birk is barely bigger than him. I have no doubt that Gradkowski will bulk up a bit too since he's in a NFL conditioning program now. I'm not sure but I would bet it's a bit more intense and effective than anything he went through at Delaware. I think he has to learn a bit more about the center position and some of the intangibles needed there in the NFL since he wasn't a full-time center in college who split time between that position and guard. Learning under Birk is great for Gradkowski.


Huh. He's a little bigger than I thought, then. That gives me more hope, but I do think that at some point this season they need to put him in there and see what he can do.

Trouble is, pretty much all the teams we face from here on out have fearsome pass rushes. Except Oakland.

diamondbull424 wrote:
I think this is interesting. If the team is interested in doing preliminary talks right now I think it says more about not only how the team views Oher in their plans, but where they view him... and that's at LT. There's no doubt that we've moved him around a lot. He also came into the league looking pretty raw as a LT technique-wise. He had only played LT for something like one season before going pro, spending the majority of the time protecting a left handed QB on the right side (in HS I believe) and then playing RT in college up until his senior season IIRC... then we kept switching him back and forth. But there's no question that Oher has made some obvious strides going into this season. We've seen him virtually shutdown Chandler Jones and DeMarcus Ware for much of the game with not much help. And while he also had a bad game against the Chiefs and Tamba Hali for two sacks... and Philly's Trent Cole... he's been far more consistent than any year since his rookie season to this point... and much better than when we last played him at LT, so I think that's cause for optimism. I don't think he's necessarily done improving either. He has the athleticism and strength to continue to get better. So his improvement would fix our LT situation and the team obviously feels he has the ability to improve there.


Yeah, it seems like the Ravens have finally decided that's where they want Oher, and I'm glad of it. Moving him around can't be doing him any favours, and I think them telling him "you're our guy. We need you to go out and produce" will get the best out of him.

I do think he's been more good than bad this season, and that he's going to get better as we go through the year.

He's already faced a good portion of the league's best pass rushers, and he's actually coped pretty well. You can't completely neutralise these guys unless you're a monster LT, but limiting them takes a lot of hard work, talent and application. He can get better, and I think he will.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oher - KO - Gradkowski - Yanda - Reid

I think this can be a great offensive line for the future they are young and can grow together and besides Yanda who is a beast everyone else has shown a lot of potential i think with a new offensive line coach that can get the best out of them and a few years of chemistry together we can have a dominate line for years.
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