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Ravens vs Texans GDT: The Battle for AFC Supremacy
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What's More Likely to Happen Sunday?
Arian Foster runs for over 200 yards on our defense.
66%
 66%  [ 14 ]
Ray Rice totals 200 yards combined on their defense.
33%
 33%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 21

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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
@Flaccomania:

We don't have to go no-huddle, just stop using the same damn i-formation plays that NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER WORK!

I'm willing to bet I could go back and look at almost all of Joe's INT's this year and see that they were almost all out of 2 WR sets from under-center on play action passes.

Or to take it a step further, how about calling (God forbid) some slants, maybe some combo routes where we have guys going (I know this will sound crazy) into the middle of the field?! Idk, but watching 95% of our passes be out routes just made me want to slap Cam Cameron. If I can dissect our offense from my computer chair in my bedroom, Wade Phillips is probably standing on the sidelines laughing to himself telling his guys to just press and play outside shade all freaking day, which is exactly what they did and OMG it shut down our offense, imagine that. The first slant we threw was with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter to a borderline wide open Anquan Boldin. Before that, the last time we even tried going over the middle was to Torrey Smith on some quick slants on the 1st or 2nd drives of the game.

Doesn't matter how you want to spin it, our offense let this game get out of control because Cam Cameron ditched the run, ran the same passing plays that weren't working, and just had an all-around poor effort of calling that game offensively for us and gave our struggling defense pretty much the middle finger...saying "screw you guys, make some plays for us..."


Again, I'm not absolving blame from Cam for this game, but I definitely see some logic behind the plays he did call. Why not slants over the middle more? Because Houston was playing with 8 in the box. Further? Our OL couldn't keep their DL's hands down, so throwing the ball through a wall of 5 guys with 3 more just sitting back waiting was an INT waiting to happen all game. They were forcing us to throw the 7 yard outs or quick passes by sitting in that box waiting for anything over the middle (because they were going to ensure Ray Rice wasn't going to beat them either running or passing) and if we wanted to go deeper, they knew they were going to get to Joe.

Their defensive dominance against our OL was forcing our hand quite a bit. We didn't really have much other option until they afforded it to us. Once they started getting a little softer the middle opened up for that Boldin slant.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
MilleniumD2000 wrote:
You can question Gaithers character and laziness all you want but he had enough heart to shut down Demarcus Ware in 08 playing with one arm.
... and Adam Terry bunched in as a 2nd blocker helping him the whole way. The myth of Gaither being elite has gotten so unbelievably out of control. The only season where he showed relative consistency was 2008, when we had Terry help him out as a 2nd blocker on passing downs. 2009 he was great one week and then a step too slow the next week, and had some injury problems as well. As a one on one blocker, his pass protection was always average, though he was a good run blocker. Top 5 left tackle? He always had the talent, never had the drive (or health) to make that something within his reach.

In the long run, he proved to be extremely unreliable, and that has been flushed out by him getting turned down by Oakland, then cut by Kansas City, and now having but one decent 5 game stretch in San Diego at the end of last year to show for it as his body of work since leaving us. He's not a dependable football player, period.

As for Barnes, he had his chance in Baltimore, and he didn't make the most of it. I wish we could have gotten the more out of him, but he was never serious about the game and it showed. He washed out with Philadelphia as well, which seemed to be a wakeup call for him because he finally got his act together in San Diego, though after getting a new contract he's gone back to being mostly invisible this year. I wish, and think we could have done more to make Barnes a serviceable player for us. But he failed us as much as we failed him.

And beyond that, the fact that Barnes, Gaither, and a washed up, soon-to-be-retired Trevor Pryce (!!!) are the 3 best examples of Harbaugh's supposed personnel failures probably says more about the good job he's done in his time in charge than any larger story about how much we've missed out on.

If Harbaugh is nothing but a schill for his crappy coordinators, as the narrative goes, how exactly did we go to the playoffs and win playoff games in consecutive years, including a 12 win season in 2010, with Mattison and Cameron as our defensive and offensive coordinators? As per usual, the players get all of the credit when things go well and the coaches take all of the heat when things are tough.

You would think someone who is apparently nothing but a proponent of incompetency would have been solved by now. A head coach's quality is not judged by the expressions that you might catch on the CBS broadcast or by whether he was a coordinator beforehand or not. A head coach's greatest responsibility is to run the ship in such a way that he creates a culture and environment conducive to sustained success. The best thing you can look at is his success in its largest sample size, and what it tells us is that Harbaugh has won at a historically great level since becoming our head coach. I have my own quibbles with mistakes he makes as well, but the sort of stuff I'm seeing here, and the overall 'anti-Harbaugh' faction often relies on the most reductive and superficial of reasoning and is mostly based in the delusion that being a football coach and doing what those guys do is something so easy that any internet hero can do it.


Will you marry me?
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Again, I'm not absolving blame from Cam for this game, but I definitely see some logic behind the plays he did call. Why not slants over the middle more? Because Houston was playing with 8 in the box. Further? Our OL couldn't keep their DL's hands down, so throwing the ball through a wall of 5 guys with 3 more just sitting back waiting was an INT waiting to happen all game. They were forcing us to throw the 7 yard outs or quick passes by sitting in that box waiting for anything over the middle (because they were going to ensure Ray Rice wasn't going to beat them either running or passing) and if we wanted to go deeper, they knew they were going to get to Joe.

Their defensive dominance against our OL was forcing our hand quite a bit. We didn't really have much other option until they afforded it to us. Once they started getting a little softer the middle opened up for that Boldin slant.


It's really simple. If they want to play 8 in the box, you spread them out and do what you want with them. If they're playing zones, flood the zones, run trail routes, rub routes, you can't JUST throw to the sidelines. They were tipping passes when Flacco was dropping back from I-Form with 2 WR's, not from shotgun when we were spreading them out.

But I mean if we want to sit there and just let the DL stand in front of our guys with their hands up, we can't pump fake or something and then hit them on a double move? I'm no football genius but football is a lot of "see and react", and that's something our offense, particularly Cam Cameron doesn't ever do. They were obviously LOOKING for those quick passes, so why not just pump fake a quick slant and then hit them over the top on a double move? You said it yourself they're only playing a single high safety with 8 in the box and if they're going to play the quick passes like that, you gotta hit 'em deep.

Just my thoughts. Like I said, I thought the game was called poorly, and not even in terms of not involving our best offensive player (Rice), and further than that, Leach played for 14 snaps. It was honestly a miracle that Houston didn't pick off more passes with the amount of out routes we threw at them.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
It's really simple. If they want to play 8 in the box, you spread them out and do what you want with them. If they're playing zones, flood the zones, run trail routes, rub routes, you can't JUST throw to the sidelines. They were tipping passes when Flacco was dropping back from I-Form with 2 WR's, not from shotgun when we were spreading them out.


But we WERE trying to spread them out and it wasn't working at all. That's the thing, again, that I feel like you're ignoring. We TRIED the heavy shotgun, no huddle, spread them out situation, and if we took any more than 2 seconds to get the ball out, they hit Joe. Our OL couldn't protect all day, so Cam switched it up to keep Rice/Leach in more often to help protect which obviously limits things.

And on both of Joe's INTs, neither was in I-form. One Leach was lined up to the right side, and the other was in shotgun (3 WR/1TE). On Joe's pick 6 with Leach lined up right side, if we were to change that to shotgun, Joe would have had to stare down Torrey since it was a timing route -- with the drop, the timing is that much easier to execute. Yet even with the drop, Watt still got his hands on the ball.

Quote:
But I mean if we want to sit there and just let the DL stand in front of our guys with their hands up, we can't pump fake or something and then hit them on a double move? I'm no football genius but football is a lot of "see and react", and that's something our offense, particularly Cam Cameron doesn't ever do. They were obviously LOOKING for those quick passes, so why not just pump fake a quick slant and then hit them over the top on a double move? You said it yourself they're only playing a single high safety with 8 in the box and if they're going to play the quick passes like that, you gotta hit 'em deep.


Because, again, Joe wouldn't have the time unless he just lofted it up and took a low percentage throw. Yes, a pump fake would catch one or two guys up in the air, but from the other side we'd have 1-2 guys breaking through the OL and hitting Joe. Pump fake and go deep routes take time to develop and we weren't being afforded that protection.

Quote:
Just my thoughts. Like I said, I thought the game was called poorly, and not even in terms of not involving our best offensive player (Rice), and further than that, Leach played for 14 snaps. It was honestly a miracle that Houston didn't pick off more passes with the amount of out routes we threw at them.


I flat out don't understand your logic.

On one hand, you're saying you hate that we run a lot of I-form and we need to spread them out. Then in the very next sentence, you complain about how Leach didn't get enough snaps (unless you think 14 snaps is too many which would even further boggle my mind considering he's the biggest asset on clearing holes for Rice to run through which you, again, complained that we didn't run enough). It may just be me, but it seems that your argument is all over the place and seems more about just wanting to complain than actually having a specific reason to complain.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leach getting 14 snaps was just to show that Cam had no intentions of going into this game with the mindset of controlling the clock, working the ground game and using our best players.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NO HUDDLE. You can manage the clock running the no huddle you don't have to snap the ball 7 seconds after a play ends, you can run the no huddle, work the clock down and then run your play without the defense substituting.

But I mean it's whatever, man, we could argue this all day long. I guess you saw the game differently than I did, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think throwing out routes all damn day is a pretty pathetic gameplan against one of the best defenses in the NFL.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Leach getting 14 snaps was just to show that Cam had no intentions of going into this game with the mindset of controlling the clock, working the ground game and using our best players.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NO HUDDLE. You can manage the clock running the no huddle you don't have to snap the ball 7 seconds after a play ends, you can run the no huddle, work the clock down and then run your play without the defense substituting.

But I mean it's whatever, man, we could argue this all day long. I guess you saw the game differently than I did, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think throwing out routes all damn day is a pretty pathetic gameplan against one of the best defenses in the NFL.


Do you have a source that shows when Leach recieved his snaps? I'd guess it was early in the game until we fell behind by a lot and realized we would need to try and score a bit more quickly.

I agree that would be a terrible gameplan, but it sure didn't seem to me that it WAS the gameplan -- it seems to be that the defensive pressure we were facing dictated what kinds of routes even stood a shot.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Leach getting 14 snaps was just to show that Cam had no intentions of going into this game with the mindset of controlling the clock, working the ground game and using our best players.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NO HUDDLE. You can manage the clock running the no huddle you don't have to snap the ball 7 seconds after a play ends, you can run the no huddle, work the clock down and then run your play without the defense substituting.

But I mean it's whatever, man, we could argue this all day long. I guess you saw the game differently than I did, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think throwing out routes all damn day is a pretty pathetic gameplan against one of the best defenses in the NFL.


Do you have a source that shows when Leach recieved his snaps? I'd guess it was early in the game until we fell behind by a lot and realized we would need to try and score a bit more quickly.

I agree that would be a terrible gameplan, but it sure didn't seem to me that it WAS the gameplan -- it seems to be that the defensive pressure we were facing dictated what kinds of routes even stood a shot.


I don't, but I would also guess that's when he received his snaps as well, probably mostly on the first drive and then late in the game. I just remember Aaron Wilson and BR.com citing he received 14 snaps.

Really? I thought our opening drive gameplan was the gameplan, and then suddenly Cam was like "Nah, that was TOO easy...." so then he did what Cam usually does, overthinks things and tried to play one step ahead of Wade Phillips and it just bit us in the butt.

I thought the first drive that Cam called a great mix of run/pass and short passes and long developing passes, and then just went away from it...for no apparent reason.
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Leach getting 14 snaps was just to show that Cam had no intentions of going into this game with the mindset of controlling the clock, working the ground game and using our best players.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NO HUDDLE. You can manage the clock running the no huddle you don't have to snap the ball 7 seconds after a play ends, you can run the no huddle, work the clock down and then run your play without the defense substituting.

But I mean it's whatever, man, we could argue this all day long. I guess you saw the game differently than I did, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think throwing out routes all damn day is a pretty pathetic gameplan against one of the best defenses in the NFL.


I know Harbaugh has spoken about possibly rethinking the no-huddle on the road, because the quick three-and-outs are a killer, and I sort of half agree with him.

I think that the offense should start slow, on the road. No-huddle or huddle, just don't play too quickly. Take your time, see what's working, eat up some clock and quiet the home crowd down.

Then, if things are going well, get progressively faster. Keep going faster and faster for the whole first half. Then, depending on the situation of the game, either slow down again in the second or keep the pace up.

Alternating and/or inexorably getting faster would keep the opposing defense on the back foot and unsure what to expect.

Also, get a more balanced playbook, Cam! You can run the ball, throw quick passes and bomb it deep, you know. It's not an either/or question.

It all needs to be smoother and more carefully managed (not something I'm convinced Cam can do) so that they can score points and control the time of possession.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand blaming A LOT of things for that loss on Sunday. But Cam though?

Of all the times you could have blamed him for our ineptitude, you choose to go in using the one game where our offensive line couldn't block a JV team? Where Flacco had what seemed like half of his passes batted down at the line of scrimmage? Where our receivers got little to no separation at all, and when they did they either dropped passes or got illegally contacted but received almost none of the calls? Where Joe was missing wide open throws left and right? Where Joe was zoning in on his targets because he had no time to let the play develop?

Maybe you could blame him for not utilizing the run as much as we could have. However, watching the game. Yeah, Rice had a nice 4.7 per carry average on 9 runs. But you take out that nice 17 yard run he had on the opening drive where everyone looked good, and you're only looking at about 3.1 yards per carry.

A lot of blame to go around, but for once Cam HARDLY deserves any of the fault for the ineptitude of this team on Sunday.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And part of that blame should go to Ray Rice, who is not nearly as explosive as he used to be.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mancunian Raven wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Leach getting 14 snaps was just to show that Cam had no intentions of going into this game with the mindset of controlling the clock, working the ground game and using our best players.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NO HUDDLE. You can manage the clock running the no huddle you don't have to snap the ball 7 seconds after a play ends, you can run the no huddle, work the clock down and then run your play without the defense substituting.

But I mean it's whatever, man, we could argue this all day long. I guess you saw the game differently than I did, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think throwing out routes all damn day is a pretty pathetic gameplan against one of the best defenses in the NFL.


I know Harbaugh has spoken about possibly rethinking the no-huddle on the road, because the quick three-and-outs are a killer, and I sort of half agree with him.

I think that the offense should start slow, on the road. No-huddle or huddle, just don't play too quickly. Take your time, see what's working, eat up some clock and quiet the home crowd down.

Then, if things are going well, get progressively faster. Keep going faster and faster for the whole first half. Then, depending on the situation of the game, either slow down again in the second or keep the pace up.

Alternating and/or inexorably getting faster would keep the opposing defense on the back foot and unsure what to expect.

Also, get a more balanced playbook, Cam! You can run the ball, throw quick passes and bomb it deep, you know. It's not an either/or question.

It all needs to be smoother and more carefully managed (not something I'm convinced Cam can do) so that they can score points and control the time of possession.


I completely agree with this, especially the balanced playbook part. It's like Cam Cameron just removes random pages from his playbook whenever we go on the road or something. Mind boggling.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RavensTillIDie wrote:
I can understand blaming A LOT of things for that loss on Sunday. But Cam though?

Of all the times you could have blamed him for our ineptitude, you choose to go in using the one game where our offensive line couldn't block a JV team? Where Flacco had what seemed like half of his passes batted down at the line of scrimmage? Where our receivers got little to no separation at all, and when they did they either dropped passes or got illegally contacted but received almost none of the calls? Where Joe was missing wide open throws left and right? Where Joe was zoning in on his targets because he had no time to let the play develop?

Maybe you could blame him for not utilizing the run as much as we could have. However, watching the game. Yeah, Rice had a nice 4.7 per carry average on 9 runs. But you take out that nice 17 yard run he had on the opening drive where everyone looked good, and you're only looking at about 3.1 yards per carry.

A lot of blame to go around, but for once Cam HARDLY deserves any of the fault for the ineptitude of this team on Sunday.


1. Our WR's got no separation BECAUSE THEY RAN THE SAME ROUTES ALL GAME LONG! I could throw a handicapped person out there and they could cover those WR's if all they run is out routes.

2. Yes, we had a lot of balls batted down at the LoS, and you mean to tell me that an NFL offensive coordinator who's SUPPOSEDLY good doesn't have a way to beat that? Puh-lease.

3. Yeah, Flacco looked absolutely horrible for most of the game. WHICH IS WHY YOU RUN THE DARN BALL....

4. I'll take 3.1 yards per carry rather than 3.42 yards per passing attempt with 2 INT's and no touchdowns and our offensive line looking like cardboard cutouts.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RavensTillIDie wrote:
I can understand blaming A LOT of things for that loss on Sunday. But Cam though?

Of all the times you could have blamed him for our ineptitude, you choose to go in using the one game where our offensive line couldn't block a JV team? Where Flacco had what seemed like half of his passes batted down at the line of scrimmage? Where our receivers got little to no separation at all, and when they did they either dropped passes or got illegally contacted but received almost none of the calls? Where Joe was missing wide open throws left and right? Where Joe was zoning in on his targets because he had no time to let the play develop?

Maybe you could blame him for not utilizing the run as much as we could have. However, watching the game. Yeah, Rice had a nice 4.7 per carry average on 9 runs. But you take out that nice 17 yard run he had on the opening drive where everyone looked good, and you're only looking at about 3.1 yards per carry.

A lot of blame to go around, but for once Cam HARDLY deserves any of the fault for the ineptitude of this team on Sunday.


I'm not criticising Cam for this loss so much as I'm just suggesting what I'd like to see from the Offense on road games (and perhaps home games too).

I think that establishing a balance and carefully managing it would give the team a much better base on which to work for wins . Whether that would have made a huge difference to this game, I couldn't really say. But moving forward I think it would be better to have an Offense and a playbook that can cope with different problems, and adjust if they need to.

Cam seems to get stuck on trying the same things, over and over, when they'd perhaps have more success if they changed things up. Even if they try stuff that they're not usually quite as comfortable with.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Leach getting 14 snaps was just to show that Cam had no intentions of going into this game with the mindset of controlling the clock, working the ground game and using our best players.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NO HUDDLE. You can manage the clock running the no huddle you don't have to snap the ball 7 seconds after a play ends, you can run the no huddle, work the clock down and then run your play without the defense substituting.

But I mean it's whatever, man, we could argue this all day long. I guess you saw the game differently than I did, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think throwing out routes all damn day is a pretty pathetic gameplan against one of the best defenses in the NFL.


Do you have a source that shows when Leach recieved his snaps? I'd guess it was early in the game until we fell behind by a lot and realized we would need to try and score a bit more quickly.

I agree that would be a terrible gameplan, but it sure didn't seem to me that it WAS the gameplan -- it seems to be that the defensive pressure we were facing dictated what kinds of routes even stood a shot.


I don't, but I would also guess that's when he received his snaps as well, probably mostly on the first drive and then late in the game. I just remember Aaron Wilson and BR.com citing he received 14 snaps.

Really? I thought our opening drive gameplan was the gameplan, and then suddenly Cam was like "Nah, that was TOO easy...." so then he did what Cam usually does, overthinks things and tried to play one step ahead of Wade Phillips and it just bit us in the butt.

I thought the first drive that Cam called a great mix of run/pass and short passes and long developing passes, and then just went away from it...for no apparent reason.


Our first drive we ran 3 times, passed 4.

2nd drive we passed 3 times.

3rd drive we ran once and attempted two passes but got sacked both times (the second one for a safety).

4th drive we ran once and threw once (which turned into a pick 6).

5th drive we ran twice and threw once.

So, at this point (13:37 in the 2nd quarter) we're down 16-3, have ran the ball a total of 7 times and passed 11 times. Pretty good split. However, after that one good first drive (4 runs, 7 passes) we moved the ball a whopping total of 7 yards passing (including 2 sacks, a safety and an INT) and 14 yards rushing (on 4 carries, the longest being a 6 yard run by Leach).

This is the point that the offensive play calling changed to go with a lot more passes because we weren't going anywhere.

6th drive we try 3 passes, complete one for 7 more yards.

Texans respond with another TD taking it to 23-3.

And from there, the game just got out of hand.

So, to me, it certainly appears that we came in with the gameplan that we wanted to be relatiely even split on runs/passes, but it wasn't working. They were stacking the box and busting through our OL whether it was on runs or passes. In order to counter that, we tried some quick passes to slow it down but they either tipped them or our WRs could not gain separation.

I don't really know what more you would have wanted Cam to do in all honesty.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1. Our WR's got no separation BECAUSE THEY RAN THE SAME ROUTES ALL GAME LONG! I could throw a handicapped person out there and they could cover those WR's if all they run is out routes.


Our WRs struggle with separation pretty much every week. This week was just one of the worse ones.

Quote:
2. Yes, we had a lot of balls batted down at the LoS, and you mean to tell me that an NFL offensive coordinator who's SUPPOSEDLY good doesn't have a way to beat that? Puh-lease.


Yes he does -- telling his OL to keep their hands down. The OL execution of that failed miserably all day long.

Quote:
3. Yeah, Flacco looked absolutely horrible for most of the game. WHICH IS WHY YOU RUN THE DARN BALL....


Flacco actually didn't look horrible most of the game -- the OL did. Flacco had his fair share of bad throws, but most he was hurried/pressured/sacked/tipped/etc.

Quote:
4. I'll take 3.1 yards per carry rather than 3.42 yards per passing attempt with 2 INT's and no touchdowns and our offensive line looking like cardboard cutouts.


Again, the Texans were crashing the backfield regardless of whether it was a run or a pass. There really wasn't much more anyone could do aside from the OL who could just do their jobs.
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