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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 3135
Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, we see Thomas breaking tackles and pushing piles, we don't see Ingram doing that. We see Sproles hit impossible holes and make outstanding cuts, we don't see Ingram doing that.


Your comparing indvidual skill sets and that's unfair... Each back is a completly different type of runner. Sproles hits impossible holes and outstanding cuts because of his quickness and exceleration, thats why Sproles is who he is! Thomas breaks tackles and pushes piles because hes a tough SOB and gets less 8 man fronts than Ingram due to the fear of the screen pass. Ingram is a quanity quality back, meaning the kid needs to be feed the rock to ware defenses down and his production exclates. Go back and watch the kid at Bama, that is who he is and thats what I ment when I said if you as a franchise are gonna mortgage your defense in order to trade up for a back like Ingram then you have got to be commited to his style of game.

Also, Look at the offensive line... Only the guards fit the kinda playing style that Ingram needs to be suscessful. The kid needs roadgraders up front. Strief, Bushrod and DeLa Peunte are more finess blockers more suited to Brees's constant passing attack. Think of the lineman coming out of Bama over the last few years, Andre Smith (who happens to be a FA), Chance Warmack, Barrett Jones, James Carpenter, DJ Fluker the list goes on... ROADGRADERS!!!

The Saints are trying to combine the two different styles but its a poor mix. It's to much clash and ingram was doomed to failure the moment he was drafted and unless the Saints truly wanna commit to building a running game around his talents then they might as well trade the man for a 2nd round draft pick to help improve this defense!
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has Morgan changed anyone's mind about him not being a legit deep threat?
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
Has Morgan changed anyone's mind about him not being a legit deep threat?


Looks like a good enough one 2 me!
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Harper41


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Malcolm Jenkins actually turned his game around after the miserable 1st quarter he had and had a nice game. Hope he keeps it up.
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
...Malcolm Jenkins actually turned his game around after the miserable 1st quarter he had and had a nice game. Hope he keeps it up.


10 THings I noticed...

1. Defense much better with Hicks in the game.
2. When Jenkins plays well good things happen on the field for us.
3. Harper does what he can in coverage but is a beast everywhere else.
4. Will Smith is at the end of his career and will not be back.
5. Vilma's return helped this team defensivly.
6. These coaches have no idea how to call a run game.
7. Our offensive line outside the guards cannot run block.
8. Ingram is trying to do to much with his limited carries.
9. THis offense can win and be productive without Jimmy Graham.
10. Drew Brees is Drew Brees!
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Harper41


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
...Malcolm Jenkins actually turned his game around after the miserable 1st quarter he had and had a nice game. Hope he keeps it up.


10 THings I noticed...

1. Defense much better with Hicks in the game.
2. When Jenkins plays well good things happen on the field for us.
3. Harper does what he can in coverage but is a beast everywhere else.
4. Will Smith is at the end of his career and will not be back.
5. Vilma's return helped this team defensivly.
6. These coaches have no idea how to call a run game.
7. Our offensive line outside the guards cannot run block.
8. Ingram is trying to do to much with his limited carries.
9. THis offense can win and be productive without Jimmy Graham.
10. Drew Brees is Drew Brees!

Agreed on all counts. Still think Roman Harper should've had his 2nd INT, no idea what the refs saw that made them not overturn it.
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Jlowe22


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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Location: South Mississippi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
However, we see Thomas breaking tackles and pushing piles, we don't see Ingram doing that. We see Sproles hit impossible holes and make outstanding cuts, we don't see Ingram doing that.


Your comparing indvidual skill sets and that's unfair... Each back is a completly different type of runner. Sproles hits impossible holes and outstanding cuts because of his quickness and exceleration, thats why Sproles is who he is! Thomas breaks tackles and pushes piles because hes a tough SOB and gets less 8 man fronts than Ingram due to the fear of the screen pass. Ingram is a quanity quality back, meaning the kid needs to be feed the rock to ware defenses down and his production exclates. Go back and watch the kid at Bama, that is who he is and thats what I ment when I said if you as a franchise are gonna mortgage your defense in order to trade up for a back like Ingram then you have got to be commited to his style of game.

Also, Look at the offensive line... Only the guards fit the kinda playing style that Ingram needs to be suscessful. The kid needs roadgraders up front. Strief, Bushrod and DeLa Peunte are more finess blockers more suited to Brees's constant passing attack. Think of the lineman coming out of Bama over the last few years, Andre Smith (who happens to be a FA), Chance Warmack, Barrett Jones, James Carpenter, DJ Fluker the list goes on... ROADGRADERS!!!

The Saints are trying to combine the two different styles but its a poor mix. It's to much clash and ingram was doomed to failure the moment he was drafted and unless the Saints truly wanna commit to building a running game around his talents then they might as well trade the man for a 2nd round draft pick to help improve this defense!



Look, I said i wasn't bashing on Ingram, I watched him at bama, I know what style of runner he is but that doesn't change anything. I basically said the same thing you did. Either use him properly or not at all. If he gets a legitimate chance here with some good blocking we'll see how he does. But if he keeps running the ball for ~1 yard, then he's useless to this team and might as well send him on his way. I know he has different skillsets than the other backs, that's obvious to anybody.

He's had six games to be a productive player on this years team, the coaches have had six games to make whatever adjustments necessary to utilize him properly. And so far, it hasn't even come close to being a success. It doesn't matter why he's failing, the point is he's failing and something needs to change. I don't care what changes and I'd be overjoyed if he became solid back, but if nothing can be done on either end to make that happen, then he's useless and needs to go. I seriously doubt this staff builds an offense around Mark Ingram, and to be honest, I don't want to see them do it anyway. It be an ultra waste of resources. Continue maintaining the offense for Brees and find some backs that fit with that system while concentrating on getting this defense from all time bad to half-assed.

Got nothing against Ingram and I'm not writing him off, I just wanna see this team win games and so far his presence on this offense hasn't contributed to that at all, and every week its the same thing over and over. It doesn't make sense and fans don't care why its not working they just want it to work.
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Ingram as a player and I do think he will be a very good back in this leauge... just not with the Saints.

Even under Payton this offense neglects the run game for the most part, actually the only time I remember this team commiting to the run game was in 2009 (they won the superbowl, how bout that) but other than that the run game has been basically non existant.

This coaching staff has been hearing the rumblings from the fan base about the lack of run game for some time. I honestly believe that Payton and the offensive staff arrogantly believed that it wasent the offensive scheme that was the problem but that it was the lack of a true franchise back that limited this run game. I think they thought that trading up to take Ingram would solve there running woes but the problem is much more deep rooted than that!

THe bottom line is that they (Loomis and Payton) traded away a 1st & 2nd to trade up and take a short yaradage running back in the 1st round. Now that isnt what I beleive Ingram is but its obvious thats what they feel he is. While I dont hate on the trade up and the picks spent but they had players on the board that really could be helping this defense out right now.

How much is Ingram actually helping us?

He's doing nothing that Ivory couldent be doing. Nothing againist Ingram but this is going to go down as the worst draft day move of the Loomis/Payton era because they are to arrogant to admit that they were wrong and trade ingram now while his value is still high. They could possibaly land a 2nd round selection for ingram to help improve this defense. The Bengals will have two 2nd round selections in this draft and Ingram would likley be very attractive to the style of offense Cincinnati runs and the division they play in. Not just the Bengals but I truly feel a deal could be made to better help this team.

Once again... not because I feel Ingram is a bust, only because I think its ridiculous to have a talent like Ingram rotting on the bench wasting away while our defense struggles to improve!
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Canadian Saint


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
Has Morgan changed anyone's mind about him not being a legit deep threat?


Nope not yet. While this may seem too harsh, today he held on, before this game, he dropped 2-3 easy catches. If he can be consistent, then I'll call him a legit deep threat. Until then, nope.

Some other thoughts:

1.) Galette showed better run D than I would have anticipated. Made two plays to get into the Bucs backfield and tackle/slow down Martin. Hicks did the same aswell, and both provided more pass rush. Next week we have to start Galette, Hicks, Bunkley and Jordan as our D-line. Smith just sucks now and Ellis in invisible.

2.) Why do we insist on playing Corey White so much? The guy gets burned far too often. Patrick played well when he's gotten playing time. Play him instead of White. Ridiculous.

3.) If we get Graham back next week, our offense will be fun to watch. If Moore can get open like he was tonight, and Colston can continue to beast, adding Graham to the mix will really give Brees options. Leggo Graham, heal up!

4.) If Hawthorne is back next week, I really hope he plays. And Vilma also gets more playing time. Casillas is really not that good in one aspect of the game. He's athletic, but apart from that doesn't offer a whole lot. Hawthorne, Vilma and Lofton would give us 3 good LBers, 2 of whom can cover. Vilma looked good in the time he did play. Looked a lot more healthy than last season.

5.) It kind of pisses me off we waited until game 5 to use chip blocks. We used them this week too, and got success. Brees wasn't sacked, had enough time in the pocket, and for the most part wasn't pressured. We need to continue to chip block.

6.) With Vitt back, I'm going to assume he'll try cut out all the dumb mistakes that we've been making. Which is good. He won't add much to the defensive side of things, and nothing on the offensive side, but what I think he will do is highlight the small mistakes the players are making, and make them fix it. Things like holding, dropping passes etc etc.
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Jlowe22


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 859
Location: South Mississippi
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
I like Ingram as a player and I do think he will be a very good back in this leauge... just not with the Saints.

Even under Payton this offense neglects the run game for the most part, actually the only time I remember this team commiting to the run game was in 2009 (they won the superbowl, how bout that) but other than that the run game has been basically non existant.

This coaching staff has been hearing the rumblings from the fan base about the lack of run game for some time. I honestly believe that Payton and the offensive staff arrogantly believed that it wasent the offensive scheme that was the problem but that it was the lack of a true franchise back that limited this run game. I think they thought that trading up to take Ingram would solve there running woes but the problem is much more deep rooted than that!

THe bottom line is that they (Loomis and Payton) traded away a 1st & 2nd to trade up and take a short yaradage running back in the 1st round. Now that isnt what I beleive Ingram is but its obvious thats what they feel he is. While I dont hate on the trade up and the picks spent but they had players on the board that really could be helping this defense out right now.

How much is Ingram actually helping us?

He's doing nothing that Ivory couldent be doing. Nothing againist Ingram but this is going to go down as the worst draft day move of the Loomis/Payton era because they are to arrogant to admit that they were wrong and trade ingram now while his value is still high. They could possibaly land a 2nd round selection for ingram to help improve this defense. The Bengals will have two 2nd round selections in this draft and Ingram would likley be very attractive to the style of offense Cincinnati runs and the division they play in. Not just the Bengals but I truly feel a deal could be made to better help this team.

Once again... not because I feel Ingram is a bust, only because I think its ridiculous to have a talent like Ingram rotting on the bench wasting away while our defense struggles to improve!


I pretty much agree, however, our running game was also good last year, like really good. It was good in 09, in 2010 both Thomas and Bush were injured and we primarily relied on Ivory with some sprinkling in of Julius Jones, but I believe Payton would have basically done everything he could to duplicate the running success of 09. This year is different though, no one is hurt, and yet we still aren't running the ball like we should. Granted, we are playing from behind a lot, and in close games like these we also seem to panic and try to throw way too much, but for some reason still, Sean Payton was able to use utilize the run game and basically this offense as a whole in a way Kromer and CArmichael can't seem to do without him. Its really amazing that Brees has the absurd numbers he does thus far with so many faults this team has. Really shows how elite he is.

But my point was that I think Sean Payton does believe in the run game and would be calling much better plays and getting more production out them this year than we've seen thus far, taking pressure off of Brees, and while that may mean fewer yards and TDs for Brees it would mean fewer picks and incompletions and better performance as a whole, and not unrealistically a 6-0 record, as every game thus far has been within one score.
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