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(Alex) Smith makes it too easy for defenses
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Ataal


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would hope there would be some people saying he's having at least a good year. Otherwise, I would have to question how much they know about football, in general. He's on pace to have much better year than last year(which many claim to be a career year), stat-wise, and we had a powder puff schedule last year. I honestly don't even think this is even a question that needs an answer. Do people really think he's not having a good year? Do these people watch football?
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y2lamanaki


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
I would hope there would be some people saying he's having at least a good year. Otherwise, I would have to question how much they know about football, in general. He's on pace to have much better year than last year(which many claim to be a career year), stat-wise, and we had a powder puff schedule last year. I honestly don't even think this is even a question that needs an answer. Do people really think he's not having a good year? Do these people watch football?


My point is - it's all relative. I think Alex is having a good year because I know our offense, know what it's meant to do, and know what "good Alex" vs. "bad Alex" looks like. Do I think he can improve? Absolutely. But when it comes to the rest of the league, what do people say about Alex? This isn't even rhetorical, I don't even know.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:
Ataal wrote:
I would hope there would be some people saying he's having at least a good year. Otherwise, I would have to question how much they know about football, in general. He's on pace to have much better year than last year(which many claim to be a career year), stat-wise, and we had a powder puff schedule last year. I honestly don't even think this is even a question that needs an answer. Do people really think he's not having a good year? Do these people watch football?


My point is - it's all relative. I think Alex is having a good year because I know our offense, know what it's meant to do, and know what "good Alex" vs. "bad Alex" looks like. Do I think he can improve? Absolutely. But when it comes to the rest of the league, what do people say about Alex? This isn't even rhetorical, I don't even know.


I said this last year, and it's worth reiterating ... I don't think the average football fan comes close to appreciating as much as it deserves a QB not throwing interceptions. Throwing for lots of yards gets all the visibility in the world but not turning over the ball is treated with a generally ho-hum attitude. I did happen to hear a former NFL coach on tv a couple weeks ago offer the opinion that not making bad plays is more important than making good plays. When it comes to winning that might well be true, and Alex's 3-int game against the Giants not withstanding, he is one of the best in all of the NFL in not throwing ints. I, for one, would take a QB who leads the league in fewest interceptions over a guy who leads the league in yards any day of the week (of course there are other things that matter, but that just reflects what I think are the relative value of those two QB attributes).
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the criticism towards Alex comes from the brand of football we play. People want to see the pass-happy offense that's so popular nowadays in the NFL, yet we play a run-first game here. Sure, if you compare Alex to the other 2012 QBs, he doesn't always look the parts. But that's like comparing players from two different leagues, or two different sports. I could compare any NFL QB with any CFL QB, and I could find things one does better than the other ad infinitum, but none of those comparisons would be valid, because it's not the same game. Just like the 2012 49ers play a brand of football that would fit right in in the 80s and early 90s. When you compare Alex's numbers with them, he compares favorably with Hall of Famers. He's getting the job done.

Some people have the hypothetical notion that we would play a different brand of football with Kaepernick starting. Where does it come from? From a little more than a half of football, where we had to come from behind? Everything, to me, indicates that this brand of football is exactly what Harbaugh wants to play, and that Alex is probably the best in the NFL, right now, at playing it. Why would Harbaugh want to play this particular brand of football? Because it goes against the grain, and it gives us a competitive edge. If the league returned to a primarily running era (what I believe will happen over the next 20 years), then Harbaugh would probably be one to buck the trend and return to a pass-happy system. So, really, do people really think we play a conservative gameplan because of Alex's limitations? Most people probably do. But knowing Jim Harbaugh from his years of coaching, he's doing what he's doing to gain a competitive edge. That's all.
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've accepted the role that Alex has on this team, and don't have an issue with how he's used, but if I feel that he needs improvement in some areas, then I'll talk about it. Just like any other player.

I feel that he is to the 49ers what A.J. McCarron is to Alabama. They don't ask a ton from A.J. and while he won't win many games, he won't lose many too. Though he's shown that he can come in the clutch if needed to. He plays careful efficient football, and it works for their program like it works for our organization.
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y2lamanaki


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continued from here:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15055584#15055584



oldman9er wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
In this case - I like Alex


Not that it matters, but I don't believe you. No one would go to this much trouble to try and hack down on a player they liked. There are a handful on this site that go far out of there way to get their lil digs in... to the point where it is painfully obvious what they really want.


Well where's the 20-page discussions on Frank Gore so I can argue with people who think he's not injury prone and isn't already slowing down this year?

Where's the 20-page discussions on Vernon Davis so I can argue with people who think he hasn't disappeared completely this year?

Where's the 20-page discussions on Patrick Willis so I can argue with people that he might be the 2nd best linebacker on this team?

Where's the 20-page discussions on Justin Smith so I can argue with people that he really hasn't done much of anything this year and is getting by on the past few years' reputation?

It's not that I don't love the above players, and it's not that I wouldn't hold those arguments, those threads just don't exist for me to do it. The only topic of discussion (even in the Colin Kaepernick thread) is Alex Smith. I've mentioned it before, but it's shocking how the arguments that are left are "Alex needs to improve his pocket awareness and needs to think quicker" and "Alex is doing well, but he can be improved upon" and the other side is still unwilling to accept the slightest criticism without getting carried away or getting all dramatic.

Because I disagree that him being the 3rd-rated QB in the league means he can't improve means I don't like Alex?

You just said yes.

Any point, whether it's meant to support or disprove a position I am for or against, that doesn't make sense - I will post that I disagree with it. That's what discussion is all about. In this instance - I'm of the opinion that because a quarterback is top 5 in the NFL in quarterback rating (for the first time ever), doesn't mean he can't be improved upon, which this seems to suggest:

Quote:
Well if we can do better than the 3rd best QB in passer rating and 3rd best QB of an offense ranked 3rd in offensive efficiency? Hells yes... give me THAT quarterback!


I've been very consistent with my belief that Alex is the quarterback this year, that he had a really good (never did I say great, excellent, superior or any other adjective) year last year, that he's had a good year this year with a stretch of average games in the middle, but that he's the best QB for the team THIS year. In fact, in this thread I make it a point of saying I'm uncertain Kaepernick would even start next year, but that there should be a competition. I stated in last week's gameday thread that Alex needed to be ready for this week as I didn't trust Kaepernick, or want Kaepernick to play, and I said the same thing in this week's Bears thread.

However, as usual, unless you believe Alex is superhuman, you're shot down. I mean, this post here holds what may be the single biggest overreaction to a single criticism of all-time:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15005222#15005222

I mean - you have to be able to accept that there is a middle ground, right? You can like a player while knowing he can either improve or be improved upon? I loved Arnaz Battle but there's no stat I could or would ever use that would suggest he'd ever be anything more than a fringe #2 on his best days, and even then he could easily be improved upon. I loved Manny Lawson but there's no way I'd ever argue that he was a perfect fit for us. Only way I wanted him around was if we went to a 4-3. Didn't happen - so I didn't need him here. I would have never made an argument that he was a pass-rusher waiting to explode or anything like that, and I would have argued with anyone who said he would because it wasn't true. It wouldn't have meant I liked him less.

But none of these threads exist. Alex threads do. I defended AJ Jenkins in the draft threads because there's no reason for him to play right now. If someone wants to go ahead and start a thread on why they think he'll be this superior WR in a few years, I'll gladly go ahead and argue why I think that's not going to be the case. Doesn't mean I don't like him (I do). But I can't do that because that thread doesn't exist.

If someone wants to make a thread about Kendall Hunter and how he's our running back of the future, I'll go ahead and post why I think that's not the case and that I don't think he's ever going to be more than a platoon back (but a really good one at that). Doesn't mean I don't like Kendall Hunter. But I can't make that post, because that thread doesn't exist.

I post my feelings on Alex frequently, because that's the discussion that this forum revolves around. Again - even in the Colin Kaepernick thread. Which is why I moved this to the Alex thread.

Edit: As an addendum to this - I just want to point out that I'm one of the biggest violators of the keeping Alex conversations to one thread - this is a part of my own effort to correct that not a subtle jab at anyone.
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oldman9er


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say what you want man... I skimmed through all of that post and the whole time, I have to be quite honest. All my mind kept saying was "gobble gobble".


I am a simple man. I call things as I see them. Many of these posts I have been reading are completely laced with disdain for Alex Smith. They are just sugar-coated all nice and pretty in the guise of "innocent criticism".

Am I wrong? I am sure I could get a paragraph upon paragraph telling me how I am imagining all of this... how I must be crazy to be conjuring up such conclusions. Surely there's some other reason why a person would go out of their way to minimize our QB being in the top 10. Oh, but of course.

... but it all comes back to what I am reading, and that little voice in my head saying that this is all sugar-coated gobble gobble. And you know what? So what if it is? Exactly. Makes very little difference. Everyone's allowed to think what they want and express what they want... just as others should be able to respond while in the bounds of the rules here. If there wasn't the gobble gobble about Alex Smith, then this forum would get... what? Maybe 3 whole posts per day (outside of gameday threads) .. so do carry on.

I'm not hurt by what I am reading... I just find myself very disappointed, is all. Oh well... like it or leave it.. I get that. I realize I am just rambling and I'm not particularly giving a damn even knowing that. I'm hungover, bored of this college football game, and bored of the very 49er forums that I'm addicted to.
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
wilmtalk wrote:


What some of the Alex's supporters do not seem to grasp is that a change in circumstances requires a change in how we deal with it. Alex despite his numbers and stats is limited. He doesn't use the entire field and this does not take advantage of the offense weapons that are now available to a niner QB.



What most of Alex's detractors do not seem to grasp is that there is such a thing as "offensive philosophy" and we clearly have one - and it's different from most other teams. Alex executes the offense as it is designed. To me many of the criticisms I continually read about Alex are actually criticisms about our coaching staff and their offensive philosophy. While I appreciate how much fun it is to watch a team sling the ball all over the place, personally I prefer watching my team win. After watching the game last week you're thinking Kap should replace Alex. Funny how people react differently because I'm thinking that if Alex wasn't hurt we would likely have won the game. Kap might be fun to watch, but Alex's "dink and dunk" style took us to a 19-5 record the last year and a half (not sure but is there any team with a better record over last season and the first half of this year?) and to a very nice TD drive that got us back into the game last week before he was hurt.

Another thing many detractors don't seem to grasp is why we run the offense we do, and why Alex is important to it'success. Prior to Alex leaving the game the Time of Possession favored us by almost 2 to 1. After he left and Kap took over it was almost 2 to 1 in the Rams' favor. It's seems ironic to me that you, and others are talking about the defense not being as strong without accounting for ball control and time of possession. Just before Alex left the game he had just led us on a TD drive that consumed over 8 minutes of clock time. That's over eight minutes of rest for the defense, and over of eight minutes less time for the Rams' offense to sit on the bench.

A clock eating, ball control offense is who we WANT to be, not who we are forced to be because of Alex's "limitations". Alex wasn't forced on Harbaugh. He has had two chances to find another QB. He picked the guy he wanted - to run the kind of offense he wants to run.


How about the games where we went a bit more pass heavy? Where we opened up games with the pass and sputtered early on. Could it be that Harbaugh wants him offense to evolve a bit and hit the air as well? We were limited in those games because Alex didn't do well in a pass heavy offense, so what did Harbaugh do? After the 2nd half of the Seahawks game, he handcuffed Alex once more and it worked again. It's the kind of offense we run with Alex at the helm, and just because it works, doesn't mean that it's what Harbaugh wants to run.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continued from here:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15055775#15055775


big9erfan wrote:
What most of Alex's detractors do not seem to grasp is that there is such a thing as "offensive philosophy" and we clearly have one - and it's different from most other teams. Alex executes the offense as it is designed. To me many of the criticisms I continually read about Alex are actually criticisms about our coaching staff and their offensive philosophy. While I appreciate how much fun it is to watch a team sling the ball all over the place, personally I prefer watching my team win. After watching the game last week you're thinking Kap should replace Alex. Funny how people react differently because I'm thinking that if Alex wasn't hurt we would likely have won the game. Kap might be fun to watch, but Alex's "dink and dunk" style took us to a 19-5 record the last year and a half (not sure but is there any team with a better record over last season and the first half of this year?) and to a very nice TD drive that got us back into the game last week before he was hurt.

Another thing many detractors don't seem to grasp is why we run the offense we do, and why Alex is important to it'success. Prior to Alex leaving the game the Time of Possession favored us by almost 2 to 1. After he left and Kap took over it was almost 2 to 1 in the Rams' favor. It's seems ironic to me that you, and others are talking about the defense not being as strong without accounting for ball control and time of possession. Just before Alex left the game he had just led us on a TD drive that consumed over 8 minutes of clock time. That's over eight minutes of rest for the defense, and over of eight minutes less time for the Rams' offense to sit on the bench.

A clock eating, ball control offense is who we WANT to be, not who we are forced to be because of Alex's "limitations". Alex wasn't forced on Harbaugh. He has had two chances to find another QB. He picked the guy he wanted - to run the kind of offense he wants to run.


A couple things:

-Only team with a better record over the last season and a half would be the Packers (which we, of course, beat them). New England, Baltimore, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Houston are all close behind.

-I agree with the concept of us being a ball-control team to help our defense out, but only to an extent. Our defense allowed less points (10) over the 2 and 1/2 quarters that Kaepernick was in than it did in the first quarter (14) when Alex was in. Had the defense been on top of its game from the start, we'd have won regardless of who the QB was (or we'd have won if Akers didn't miss a field goal after Kaep brought us back from down 10 then down three, and moves us in OT). Factor in that Kaepernick had a drive time of 6:38 in the second half that included the end of the quarter, a timeout, a kickoff that resulted in a fumble and change of possession, and that there was a second kickoff after that. Factor in all the TV timeouts and clock stoppages with that, there's over 20 minutes where the defense was resting. They came back out and allowed a long touchdown drive. So all three STL TDs came when the defense SHOULD have been fresh.

-However, to your point - when Kaepernick was in, his drive WAS very Alex-like, in the sense that he was efficient, took sacks instead of throwing a pick (almost lost a fumble, though), and ate up the defense featuring mostly running. So I don't know that the philosophy would change much with Kaepernick in. Ideally, he'd keep the efficiency over the end of the game (9 of 10 for 99 yards), add in his superior running skills, and protect the football from fumbles better. This isn't his season to do that, though. Maybe next. If not - 2014 for sure. I don't think the offense will change all TOO much, though. Though, there were certainly more passes downfield instead of YAC.

Basically, what it boils down to in my view is this: if we can take all the things Alex DOES do well, add in some ability to sense pressure and make something happen with it (perhaps Kaepernick's running ability), and stop focusing on throwing short of the first down marker, there's the making of a very potent offense with the philosophy we use. While what we're doing is still currently effective I don't think it's perfected. And in this instance, perfected doesn't need to mean perfect (no such offense exists)- just needs to move like well-oiled offensive machines can (see New England, Green Bay).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:


Basically, what it boils down to in my view is this: if we can take all the things Alex DOES do well, add in some ability to sense pressure and make something happen with it (perhaps Kaepernick's running ability), and stop focusing on throwing short of the first down marker, there's the making of a very potent offense with the philosophy we use. While what we're doing is still currently effective I don't think it's perfected. And in this instance, perfected doesn't need to mean perfect (no such offense exists)- just needs to move like well-oiled offensive machines can (see New England, Green Bay).


Agree completely with this. I think he's playing well, and he can get better still ... and I sure hope he does.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoCalNiner wrote:
and just because it works, doesn't mean that it's what Harbaugh wants to run.


I do get your point. I think mine is best explained by your quote above. My guess is that he wants to run whatever works.
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
SoCalNiner wrote:
and just because it works, doesn't mean that it's what Harbaugh wants to run.


I do get your point. I think mine is best explained by your quote above. My guess is that he wants to run whatever works.


That also makes sense.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Most of the criticism towards Alex comes from the brand of football we play. People want to see the pass-happy offense that's so popular nowadays in the NFL, yet we play a run-first game here. Sure, if you compare Alex to the other 2012 QBs, he doesn't always look the parts. But that's like comparing players from two different leagues, or two different sports. I could compare any NFL QB with any CFL QB, and I could find things one does better than the other ad infinitum, but none of those comparisons would be valid, because it's not the same game. Just like the 2012 49ers play a brand of football that would fit right in in the 80s and early 90s. When you compare Alex's numbers with them, he compares favorably with Hall of Famers. He's getting the job done.

Some people have the hypothetical notion that we would play a different brand of football with Kaepernick starting. Where does it come from? From a little more than a half of football, where we had to come from behind? Everything, to me, indicates that this brand of football is exactly what Harbaugh wants to play, and that Alex is probably the best in the NFL, right now, at playing it. Why would Harbaugh want to play this particular brand of football? Because it goes against the grain, and it gives us a competitive edge. If the league returned to a primarily running era (what I believe will happen over the next 20 years), then Harbaugh would probably be one to buck the trend and return to a pass-happy system. So, really, do people really think we play a conservative gameplan because of Alex's limitations? Most people probably do. But knowing Jim Harbaugh from his years of coaching, he's doing what he's doing to gain a competitive edge. That's all.



I've left for the entire weekend and no one commented on this. Is it because I'm right and no one wants to argue against that? If so, I've solved the Harbaugh/Alex enigma. Go to sleep, children. We can finally rest.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Most of the criticism towards Alex comes from the brand of football we play. People want to see the pass-happy offense that's so popular nowadays in the NFL, yet we play a run-first game here. Sure, if you compare Alex to the other 2012 QBs, he doesn't always look the parts. But that's like comparing players from two different leagues, or two different sports. I could compare any NFL QB with any CFL QB, and I could find things one does better than the other ad infinitum, but none of those comparisons would be valid, because it's not the same game. Just like the 2012 49ers play a brand of football that would fit right in in the 80s and early 90s. When you compare Alex's numbers with them, he compares favorably with Hall of Famers. He's getting the job done.

Some people have the hypothetical notion that we would play a different brand of football with Kaepernick starting. Where does it come from? From a little more than a half of football, where we had to come from behind? Everything, to me, indicates that this brand of football is exactly what Harbaugh wants to play, and that Alex is probably the best in the NFL, right now, at playing it. Why would Harbaugh want to play this particular brand of football? Because it goes against the grain, and it gives us a competitive edge. If the league returned to a primarily running era (what I believe will happen over the next 20 years), then Harbaugh would probably be one to buck the trend and return to a pass-happy system. So, really, do people really think we play a conservative gameplan because of Alex's limitations? Most people probably do. But knowing Jim Harbaugh from his years of coaching, he's doing what he's doing to gain a competitive edge. That's all.



I've left for the entire weekend and no one commented on this. Is it because I'm right and no one wants to argue against that? If so, I've solved the Harbaugh/Alex enigma. Go to sleep, children. We can finally rest.


It's because it makes too much sense and cannot be refuted with any real credibility as there is no evidence to support the opposite viewpoint.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Most of the criticism towards Alex comes from the brand of football we play. People want to see the pass-happy offense that's so popular nowadays in the NFL, yet we play a run-first game here. Sure, if you compare Alex to the other 2012 QBs, he doesn't always look the parts. But that's like comparing players from two different leagues, or two different sports. I could compare any NFL QB with any CFL QB, and I could find things one does better than the other ad infinitum, but none of those comparisons would be valid, because it's not the same game. Just like the 2012 49ers play a brand of football that would fit right in in the 80s and early 90s. When you compare Alex's numbers with them, he compares favorably with Hall of Famers. He's getting the job done.

Some people have the hypothetical notion that we would play a different brand of football with Kaepernick starting. Where does it come from? From a little more than a half of football, where we had to come from behind? Everything, to me, indicates that this brand of football is exactly what Harbaugh wants to play, and that Alex is probably the best in the NFL, right now, at playing it. Why would Harbaugh want to play this particular brand of football? Because it goes against the grain, and it gives us a competitive edge. If the league returned to a primarily running era (what I believe will happen over the next 20 years), then Harbaugh would probably be one to buck the trend and return to a pass-happy system. So, really, do people really think we play a conservative gameplan because of Alex's limitations? Most people probably do. But knowing Jim Harbaugh from his years of coaching, he's doing what he's doing to gain a competitive edge. That's all.



I've left for the entire weekend and no one commented on this. Is it because I'm right and no one wants to argue against that? If so, I've solved the Harbaugh/Alex enigma. Go to sleep, children. We can finally rest.


I didn't comment because I addressed it a couple posts up:

Quote:
-However, to your point - when Kaepernick was in, his drive WAS very Alex-like, in the sense that he was efficient, took sacks instead of throwing a pick (almost lost a fumble, though), and ate up the defense featuring mostly running. So I don't know that the philosophy would change much with Kaepernick in. Ideally, he'd keep the efficiency over the end of the game (9 of 10 for 99 yards), add in his superior running skills, and protect the football from fumbles better. This isn't his season to do that, though. Maybe next. If not - 2014 for sure. I don't think the offense will change all TOO much, though. Though, there were certainly more passes downfield instead of YAC.

Basically, what it boils down to in my view is this: if we can take all the things Alex DOES do well, add in some ability to sense pressure and make something happen with it (perhaps Kaepernick's running ability), and stop focusing on throwing short of the first down marker, there's the making of a very potent offense with the philosophy we use. While what we're doing is still currently effective I don't think it's perfected. And in this instance, perfected doesn't need to mean perfect (no such offense exists)- just needs to move like well-oiled offensive machines can (see New England, Green Bay).

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