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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oland11 wrote:
So....Do I get props for starting this argument that got us closer to #500K? Very Happy

And who won this argument?

P.S. If we do hire Gruden i'm going to the NovaCare Complex to protest(Weapon-free) Anyone with me?


I'll be there to protest.

The guy has the lowest win percentage for any Superbowl winning coach in recent memory.

That should be enough to send people running. But add that to the fact that Bucs fans in that thread that Phire started are saying that Gruden is a terrible talent evaluator and had terrible drafts.

Yeah, Gruden sounds exactly like the head coach we need. Rolling Eyes
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RollEagles wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
You need to finish a great post like that with an "oh yeah and he won a Super Bowl too..." Laughing


Cool. That makes a lot of people a great coach.


Brian Billick, come on down.

By PE's standards, you are automatically qualified to be the next head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles.


Except Gruden is clearly a much better coach than Billick, he was a much better playcaller as well. Comparing the 2 because both had hall of fame defenses is a joke. Gruden was able to put Brad Johnson in the best position to win. Gruden lit a fire under that team where they actually were able to go on the road and win playoff games, Gruden was able to take 2 franchises and make them better than when they were before he got there. Billick is none of those.
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
RollEagles wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
Where the hell did RollEagles go? You have other people picking up his side in the argument. He ran off...


Not ran off. More like had class from 3:45-5:00. And just got back to his apartment.

But yeah I still haven't heard a legitimate acknowledgment of how Gruden had the lowest win percentage by far than any other coach after winning a Superbowl.

Also combine this with the fact that Gruden's players, analysts, and many posters have asserted that Gruden won with a Dungy-built-roster.

Of all the other Superbowl winners, Gruden's Superbowl win seems the flakiest.

And Remixxxxxxx, obviously I know who those other coaches are. I think a lot of posters fail to realize the issues with Jon Gruden.


Why were his teams in Oakland so successful then? Because they weren't in the playoffs the 5 years before him, and only once since.


I give him credit for going 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, and 10-6 with Oakland.

To me, that isn't nearly enough to overlook how terrible of a job he did with Tampa Bay after he won the title with a Dungy-Roster.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.


Thats a San Francisco paper talking about a Tampa Bay football team, with all do respect I'm not sure thats much of a reputible source. Either way, Gruden, having failed if he was in fact in charge of personel, may only want to be a coach, and if he is then he's a great option here. As far as the player background thing, McKay drafted Sapp who had off field issues, and I'm sure there were others. Also as far as McKay looking to build through the draft, he went all Al Davis to get Gruden in town. Theres a lot of questions with that article.


You can question the source all you want. It seems to be echoing what Buccaneers fans have already said.

Gruden did have personnel control. He's a prideful guy with a good track record, of course he wants control. Imagine coaching a football team and not being able to pick the guys you want for it. Remember Vince Young and Jeff Fisher?

It is my belief that head coaches should always have a large input into who is drafted for that team. Most GMs aren't football guys anyways.

McKay went and got Gruden because he was desperate. They let Dungy go expecting to get Bill Parcells. Gruden wasn't even on their radar.

After they got word that Parcells didn't want the job, Dungy was already in Indianapolis.

So they went to Davis and got swindled hard by him. They wanted to go after a "popular" guy so they didn't look absolutely ridiculous and start a riot within the fans.


I adressed the rest when I edited my post, but the bolded is false. I think if you ask anyone they would trade those draft picks for a superbowl too. You can say that was Dungy's team all you want, but with Dungy, those teams weren't worth a damn outside on the road, hell Dungy never went to a Superbowl he didn't have homefield.


How is it false? It's true. Just because it worked out in hindsight, doesn't make it untrue.

You're not seeing the bigger picture.
Dungy and McKay took the team. Dungy failed to get the best out of that roster.

Gruden did.

There lies the problem. Gruden didn't have to build anything. If you think he built a team in 1 season, then you're out of your mind.

Why is that a problem you ask? Because the Philadelphia Eagles need to be built. Thus it makes the Super Bowl almost irrelevant considering these are polar opposite situations.
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RollEagles wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
RollEagles wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
Where the hell did RollEagles go? You have other people picking up his side in the argument. He ran off...


Not ran off. More like had class from 3:45-5:00. And just got back to his apartment.

But yeah I still haven't heard a legitimate acknowledgment of how Gruden had the lowest win percentage by far than any other coach after winning a Superbowl.

Also combine this with the fact that Gruden's players, analysts, and many posters have asserted that Gruden won with a Dungy-built-roster.

Of all the other Superbowl winners, Gruden's Superbowl win seems the flakiest.

And Remixxxxxxx, obviously I know who those other coaches are. I think a lot of posters fail to realize the issues with Jon Gruden.


Why were his teams in Oakland so successful then? Because they weren't in the playoffs the 5 years before him, and only once since.


I give him credit for going 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, and 10-6 with Oakland.

To me, that isn't nearly enough to overlook how terrible of a job he did with Tampa Bay after he won the title with a Dungy-Roster.


I find it funny that people are saying it was a Dungy roster but completely neglect the fact it was a roster Dungy couldn't win with.

Dungy couldn't win in the postseason on the road at all. Remember how every time the Bucs came to Philly in the playoffs with Dungy they were dominated, then when Gruden came over we all assumed it would be the same and they dominated us? That team had a completely different mindset than the one Dungy had.

And I've said it before, the average age of that team was like 29 years old. They were an old team. The fact that they couldn't restock after the superbowl year was because they were without the first and second round picks that they used to get Gruden. They weren't an awful drafting team when he took over but they never managed to get in position to draft that franchise QB except for Aaron Rodgers, but as I said in the past, Chris Simms looked like a good option to move forward with. The fact is he got fired after 2 winning seasons in Tampa. The year after he was fired was the first time they were in position to draft a QB and drafted Josh Johnson.
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
RollEagles wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
You need to finish a great post like that with an "oh yeah and he won a Super Bowl too..." Laughing


Cool. That makes a lot of people a great coach.


Brian Billick, come on down.

By PE's standards, you are automatically qualified to be the next head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles.


Except Gruden is clearly a much better coach than Billick, he was a much better playcaller as well. Comparing the 2 because both had hall of fame defenses is a joke. Gruden was able to put Brad Johnson in the best position to win. Gruden lit a fire under that team where they actually were able to go on the road and win playoff games, Gruden was able to take 2 franchises and make them better than when they were before he got there. Billick is none of those.


Jon Gruden started coaching in Tampa in 2002.

Tampa Bay in the prior seasons:

2001: 9-7 (playoffs)
2000: 10-6 (playoffs)
1999: 11-5 (playoffs)
1998: 8-8
1997: 10-6 (playoffs)
1996: 6-10

Brian Billick started coaching in Baltimore in 1999

Baltimore in the prior seasons

1998: 6-10
1997: 6-9-1
1996: 4-12

Gruden inherited a winning team.

Billick inherited a 6 win team.

Hmmm.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can do better than Gruden.
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
I find it funny that people are saying it was a Dungy roster but completely neglect the fact it was a roster Dungy couldn't win with.

Dungy couldn't win in the postseason on the road at all. Remember how every time the Bucs came to Philly in the playoffs with Dungy they were dominated, then when Gruden came over we all assumed it would be the same and they dominated us? That team had a completely different mindset than the one Dungy had.

And I've said it before, the average age of that team was like 29 years old. They were an old team. The fact that they couldn't restock after the superbowl year was because they were without the first and second round picks that they used to get Gruden. They weren't an awful drafting team when he took over but they never managed to get in position to draft that franchise QB except for Aaron Rodgers, but as I said in the past, Chris Simms looked like a good option to move forward with. The fact is he got fired after 2 winning seasons in Tampa. The year after he was fired was the first time they were in position to draft a QB and drafted Josh Johnson.


So he was good enough to get a team that Dungy built over the top. I commend him for that. Winning a Superbowl isn't easy.

At the same time, he isn't a good fit for this team at all. We need a guy who can come in and draft well. A guy who has a proven record of building a good roster over time. Gruden had 6 years after his Superbowl. But no, Tampa was still stuck in mediocrity for the remainder of his tenure.

Look at the posts in the Bucs forum. So many of them are saying that he was a terrible talent evaluator and had terrible drafts.

So he wasn't in position to draft a QB. Well did Sean Payton sit around and wait for his franchise QB through the draft? There are other ways of obtaining a franchise QB besides drafting just at your specific draft position.

Trade up. Free agency. Trade.
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
We can do better than Gruden.


We can do so much better.

There are so many other better candidates.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:

I find it funny that people are saying it was a Dungy roster but completely neglect the fact it was a roster Dungy couldn't win with.



That's because Gruden haters are a religious cult. They have antilogical beliefs.

1. Ignore Gruden's record in Oakland
2. Pretend that Tony Dungy is a better coach that won big time before Gruden took over the team.
3. Diminish the value of wining a Super Bowl in favor of building a team from the ground up.
3a. Ignore the fact that the Raiders were 4-12 before Gruden became their head coach.


Last edited by PowerElite on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the post that ends this debate for me:

Quote:
Gruden is a great coach for a team that does not have to re-build. Simply put, the guy did a poor job bringing in fresh new talent when he took over. That's the reason why Tampa has been in the slums for so long because of the reoccurrence of lack of talent. Those drafts were pathetic from top to bottom. Till this day, I still thought Davin Joseph was a WTF pick when I heard the announcement. Then rewind some more you see another reach in Michael Clayton, over...wait for it...Steven Jackson. Gruden has a history of reaching in drafts and I would say 90% of them didn't pan out. I'm including his mid-round selection i.e.(Piscitelli, Black, Stovall, Jackson WR)

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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.


Thats a San Francisco paper talking about a Tampa Bay football team, with all do respect I'm not sure thats much of a reputible source. Either way, Gruden, having failed if he was in fact in charge of personel, may only want to be a coach, and if he is then he's a great option here. As far as the player background thing, McKay drafted Sapp who had off field issues, and I'm sure there were others. Also as far as McKay looking to build through the draft, he went all Al Davis to get Gruden in town. Theres a lot of questions with that article.


You can question the source all you want. It seems to be echoing what Buccaneers fans have already said.

Gruden did have personnel control. He's a prideful guy with a good track record, of course he wants control. Imagine coaching a football team and not being able to pick the guys you want for it. Remember Vince Young and Jeff Fisher?

It is my belief that head coaches should always have a large input into who is drafted for that team. Most GMs aren't football guys anyways.

McKay went and got Gruden because he was desperate. They let Dungy go expecting to get Bill Parcells. Gruden wasn't even on their radar.

After they got word that Parcells didn't want the job, Dungy was already in Indianapolis.

So they went to Davis and got swindled hard by him. They wanted to go after a "popular" guy so they didn't look absolutely ridiculous and start a riot within the fans.


I adressed the rest when I edited my post, but the bolded is false. I think if you ask anyone they would trade those draft picks for a superbowl too. You can say that was Dungy's team all you want, but with Dungy, those teams weren't worth a damn outside on the road, hell Dungy never went to a Superbowl he didn't have homefield.


How is it false? It's true. Just because it worked out in hindsight, doesn't make it untrue.

You're not seeing the bigger picture.
Dungy and McKay took the team. Dungy failed to get the best out of that roster.

Gruden did.

There lies the problem. Gruden didn't have to build anything. If you think he built a team in 1 season, then you're out of your mind.

Why is that a problem you ask? Because the Philadelphia Eagles need to be built. Thus it makes the Super Bowl almost irrelevant considering these are polar opposite situations.


Like you said, McKay built the roster, thats a GM issue, not a head coaching issue. You want a GM that can work with his head coach to draft the right team, and again its not like Gruden's picks were awful at all, they were just subject to extenuated circumstances that, outside of the Talib (who was a very good player for them on the field) pick because he was a tool in college, were unforseen.

Who could have forseen Caddilac's body would break down like a ford pinto?

Who could have forseen Aaron Sears had undocumented concussions and go insane?

Who could have guessed Chris Simms would be damn near killed on a football field?

Who could have guessed Clayton would sustain injuries and then essentially quit?

Who would have guessed Gaines Adams wasn't the "Blue Chipper" everyone and their mother proclaimed him to be?
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Who could have forseen Caddilac's body would break down like a ford pinto?

Who could have forseen Aaron Sears had undocumented concussions and go insane?

Who could have guessed Chris Simms would be damn near killed on a football field?

Who could have guessed Clayton would sustain injuries and then essentially quit?

Who would have guessed Gaines Adams wasn't the "Blue Chipper" everyone and their mother proclaimed him to be?


The same excuses being made for Gruden in this post are excuses that could be made for Andy.

Who could have guessed Shawn Andrews would have terrible back problems and would go crazy?

Who would have guessed Jason Peters would have torn his ACL in summer workouts?

Who would have guessed that Jim Johnson would have passed away while still coaching?

Who would have guessed that Brandon Graham, the guy supposed to be a potential defensive rookie of the year, wouldn't have immediately been great?

Who would have guessed that 4 of 5 starting offensive lineman would have gotten injured for the Eagles in 2012?


The excuses obviously haven't cut it for Big Red and it sure as hell wouldn't cut it for Gruden.
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RollEagles wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
RollEagles wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
You need to finish a great post like that with an "oh yeah and he won a Super Bowl too..." Laughing


Cool. That makes a lot of people a great coach.


Brian Billick, come on down.

By PE's standards, you are automatically qualified to be the next head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles.


Except Gruden is clearly a much better coach than Billick, he was a much better playcaller as well. Comparing the 2 because both had hall of fame defenses is a joke. Gruden was able to put Brad Johnson in the best position to win. Gruden lit a fire under that team where they actually were able to go on the road and win playoff games, Gruden was able to take 2 franchises and make them better than when they were before he got there. Billick is none of those.


Jon Gruden started coaching in Tampa in 2002.

Tampa Bay in the prior seasons:

2001: 9-7 (playoffs)
2000: 10-6 (playoffs)
1999: 11-5 (playoffs)
1998: 8-8
1997: 10-6 (playoffs)
1996: 6-10

Brian Billick started coaching in Baltimore in 1999

Baltimore in the prior seasons

1998: 6-10
1997: 6-9-1
1996: 4-12

Gruden inherited a winning team.

Billick inherited a 6 win team.

Hmmm.


Again, were they not better when he got there? Both in Oakland and Tampa?

Billick's arrival also coincided with Ozzie Newsome drafting 2 all pros in consecutive years, one of which Billick ran into the ground. Either way he was never the playcaller Gruden was which was the primary point of that post.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.


Thats a San Francisco paper talking about a Tampa Bay football team, with all do respect I'm not sure thats much of a reputible source. Either way, Gruden, having failed if he was in fact in charge of personel, may only want to be a coach, and if he is then he's a great option here. As far as the player background thing, McKay drafted Sapp who had off field issues, and I'm sure there were others. Also as far as McKay looking to build through the draft, he went all Al Davis to get Gruden in town. Theres a lot of questions with that article.


You can question the source all you want. It seems to be echoing what Buccaneers fans have already said.

Gruden did have personnel control. He's a prideful guy with a good track record, of course he wants control. Imagine coaching a football team and not being able to pick the guys you want for it. Remember Vince Young and Jeff Fisher?

It is my belief that head coaches should always have a large input into who is drafted for that team. Most GMs aren't football guys anyways.

McKay went and got Gruden because he was desperate. They let Dungy go expecting to get Bill Parcells. Gruden wasn't even on their radar.

After they got word that Parcells didn't want the job, Dungy was already in Indianapolis.

So they went to Davis and got swindled hard by him. They wanted to go after a "popular" guy so they didn't look absolutely ridiculous and start a riot within the fans.


I adressed the rest when I edited my post, but the bolded is false. I think if you ask anyone they would trade those draft picks for a superbowl too. You can say that was Dungy's team all you want, but with Dungy, those teams weren't worth a damn outside on the road, hell Dungy never went to a Superbowl he didn't have homefield.


How is it false? It's true. Just because it worked out in hindsight, doesn't make it untrue.

You're not seeing the bigger picture.
Dungy and McKay took the team. Dungy failed to get the best out of that roster.

Gruden did.

There lies the problem. Gruden didn't have to build anything. If you think he built a team in 1 season, then you're out of your mind.

Why is that a problem you ask? Because the Philadelphia Eagles need to be built. Thus it makes the Super Bowl almost irrelevant considering these are polar opposite situations.


Like you said, McKay built the roster, thats a GM issue, not a head coaching issue. You want a GM that can work with his head coach to draft the right team, and again its not like Gruden's picks were awful at all, they were just subject to extenuated circumstances that, outside of the Talib (who was a very good player for them on the field) pick because he was a tool in college, were unforseen.


I respect your opinion above just about anyone on this forum. I enjoy reading your posts because they're always accurate and you get down to the root of things.

With that being said, I have to rely on the Buccaneer fans on this one. If Tampa fans had a discussion on Reid's coaching career, we'd all be laughing at how inaccurate and shaky some of the arguments are, and I'm sure if they saw our arguments they'd have plenty of bones to pick on both sides.

It seems they unanimously agree that drafting was a severe issue with Gruden. It is true that unforeseen things happened to a lot of his highly touted draft picks, yet, isn't that true of any team? Just look out ours. Who knew Shaun Andrews would go insane?

Quote:
But his inability to draft anyone would likely lead to the teams' downfall after a few years.

Quote:
That being said, there is no denying that when he was our HC our drafts were laughably awful. His best draft pick was Davin Joseph. Outside of that, it has been mostly garbage.

Quote:
As others have mentioned, if he has any influence on draft choice, lord help your team. Incapable.


Does this sound like someone who should be part of rebuilding here?
I agree that Gruden would have been a great candidate for 2004, maybe even the 2008-09 season. But not 2012, we need a guy who will build through the draft.

Quote:
Who could have forseen Caddilac's body would break down like a ford pinto?

Who could have forseen Aaron Sears had undocumented concussions and go insane?

Who could have guessed Chris Simms would be damn near killed on a football field?

Who could have guessed Clayton would sustain injuries and then essentially quit?

Who would have guessed Gaines Adams wasn't the "Blue Chipper" everyone and their mother proclaimed him to be?


These are just simply things that every team deals with, our team included.
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