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EaglesFan5-36-81


Joined: 03 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
So I asked the following question to Buccaneers fans.
You can check it out >>here<< but I'm going to ask that people here keep their input out so it's purely Tampa fans voicing their recollections.

Phire wrote:
Hey guys, real quick, what are your thoughts on Jon Gruden?

The Eagles forum is split on him. Is he a good coach? Bad coach? People who want Gruden post pictures of the Lombardi Trophy, those who are against him bring up some of the questionable opinions of his former players:

Quote:
Sapp says that “Tony Dungy put the damn cake in the oven, and then Jon Gruden came in and put the icing on it.”


I personally, do not agree that Gruden is a good fit for the Eagles. Not because I don't think he's a successful coach, but because

1) He's had some time away from the game
2) His main accomplishment is the 2002 Super Bowl when he took over a great defense.

The second point is imperative because the Eagles are the polar opposite right now. Would Gruden be a good fit for a rebuilding Eagles team?


Because posting every response would make a huge post, and most of you won't bother reading it all, I will post the three pros and cons that have already been posted.

Pros

Quote:
Won us our superbowl though, and i will never forget that. Did enough with the offense for us to win that Superbowl, with a good RB he is a great coach. Look no further then when Caddy was healthy.

Him with McCoy would be great.


Quote:
Now as far as his game-planning goes week in and week out, this is where he was superior against other coaches. He was great at halftime adjustments and knew how to get the most out his players. Gruden knows what to do with the talent given. For example, we all saw what happened after we lost Keyshawn our pass game went to a more vertical style when Galloway came in. He knows how to call a good game most of the time - Gruden just needs the players to run his system and his offense will put up points.


Quote:
He is a tremendous offensive mind that was able to do a lot with a little. Our offenses were never all that explosive, but they were never all that talented either (Gruden is partly to blame for that).


Cons

Quote:
his "offensive genius" was never more false. The fact that this years team is destroying franchise offensive records now, tells you what you need to know.

Gruden was terrible at challenges, one thing I remember vividly. He knew how to get the most out of over the hill vets though, not so much with rookies. Terrible at talent evaluation, but great at getting most out of players


Quote:
Gruden is a great coach for a team that does not have to re-build. Simply put, the guy did a poor job bringing in fresh new talent when he took over. That's the reason why Tampa has been in the slums for so long because of the reoccurrence of lack of talent. Those drafts were pathetic from top to bottom. Till this day, I still thought Davin Joseph was a WTF pick when I heard the announcement. Then rewind some more you see another reach in Michael Clayton, over...wait for it...Steven Jackson. Gruden has a history of reaching in drafts and I would say 90% of them didn't pan out. I'm including his mid-round selection i.e.(Piscitelli, Black, Stovall, Jackson WR)


Quote:
I think his offensive abilities are greatly exaggerated. I remember he loved pre snap motion to the point of ridiculousness, and usually just for normal plays that rarely fooled the defense.

As others have mentioned, if he has any influence on draft choice, lord help your team. Incapable.


The first con goes against the second and thrid pros.

As far as re-building, the Raiders Pre-Gruden didn't make the playoffs from 1994 to 1997. Gruden had a .594 win % with Oakland.

As far as our main issue its a coach who can't figure out the offensive strengths of his team, which is something by those "pros" Gruden has. The fact that he would get Shady the ball is a plus.

Roseman should be fired, but if we bring in an actual GM, we should be able to draft. IIRC McKay and Allen were in charge of that during his tenure.
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So basiclly Gruden is a bad fit for any team in rebuild mode? Perfect for us! Sign the man, Lurie! HE WON A SUPERBOWL FOR CHRIST SAKE GI'VE THE MAN A BLANK CHECK
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marky_b27


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.

Gruden is very much a football coach first. You don't need him getting into the personnel side of things.

That's why he'd be a bad fit here in the current structure.

We either need a coach who can fill Reid's role on personnel, or bring in someone who has a track record in talent evaluation.
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-5-36-81, the problem is that Gruden likes power. He's a successful coach who has a Super Bowl victory on his resume.

I posted an article before on it. Immediately after 2002 Gruden started a power struggle and took over personnel decisions. That chased McKay out, who had basically built that team.

Once Gruden had personnel responsibilities, they were having terrifying drafts.

The conclusion is clear: Gruden is a successful coach who gets the most out of his veterans, but inherently is a bad evaluator of talent and therefore should not be part of rebuilding.

Which is my gripe. I don't think Gruden is a bad coach.
I think he's the wrong guy for rebuilding this team.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of what side of the debate you are on, you have to agree that this thread probably contains the most comprehensive debate on Jon Gruden in the world Laughing
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marky_b27


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Regardless of what side of the debate you are on, you have to agree that this thread probably contains the most comprehensive debate on Jon Gruden in the world Laughing


I'm sure Gruden would love it.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.

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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.


Thats a San Francisco paper talking about a Tampa Bay football team, with all do respect I'm not sure thats much of a reputible source. Either way, Gruden, having failed if he was in fact in charge of personel, may only want to be a coach, and if he is then he's a great option here. As far as the player background thing, McKay drafted Sapp who had off field issues, and I'm sure there were others. Also as far as McKay looking to build through the draft, he went all Al Davis to get Gruden in town. Theres a lot of questions with that article.

Either way if you draft a GM with a successful scouting background who is willing to work with Gruden you can build a successful team. That Bucs superbowl team the QB, RB, #1WR all were free agent or trade additions. They drafted a talented defense, McKay never really was strong as an offensive drafter. I broke down most of Gruden's drafts there, and while Clayton and Talib were questions off the field, but the concussion issue wasn't that bad so you couldn't expect Sears to go off the grid like he did. The rest of his picks were guys who were "can't miss guys" like Gaines Adams, or guys who worked out like Davin Joseph.


Last edited by EaglesFan5-36-81 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
Where the hell did RollEagles go? You have other people picking up his side in the argument. He ran off...


Not ran off. More like had class from 3:45-5:00. And just got back to his apartment.

But yeah I still haven't heard a legitimate acknowledgment of how Gruden had the lowest win percentage by far than any other coach after winning a Superbowl.

Also combine this with the fact that Gruden's players, analysts, and many posters have asserted that Gruden won with a Dungy-built-roster.

Of all the other Superbowl winners, Gruden's Superbowl win seems the flakiest.

And Remixxxxxxx, obviously I know who those other coaches are. I think a lot of posters fail to realize the issues with Jon Gruden.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.


Thats a San Francisco paper talking about a Tampa Bay football team, with all do respect I'm not sure thats much of a reputible source. Either way, Gruden, having failed if he was in fact in charge of personel, may only want to be a coach, and if he is then he's a great option here. As far as the player background thing, McKay drafted Sapp who had off field issues, and I'm sure there were others. Also as far as McKay looking to build through the draft, he went all Al Davis to get Gruden in town. Theres a lot of questions with that article.


You can question the source all you want. It seems to be echoing what Buccaneers fans have already said.

Gruden did have personnel control. He's a prideful guy with a good track record, of course he wants control. Imagine coaching a football team and not being able to pick the guys you want for it. Remember Vince Young and Jeff Fisher?

It is my belief that head coaches should always have a large input into who is drafted for that team. Most GMs aren't football guys anyways.

McKay went and got Gruden because he was desperate. They let Dungy go expecting to get Bill Parcells. Gruden wasn't even on their radar.

After they got word that Parcells didn't want the job, Dungy was already in Indianapolis.

So they went to Davis and got swindled hard by him. They wanted to go after a "popular" guy so they didn't look absolutely ridiculous and start a riot within the fans.
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RollEagles wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
Where the hell did RollEagles go? You have other people picking up his side in the argument. He ran off...


Not ran off. More like had class from 3:45-5:00. And just got back to his apartment.

But yeah I still haven't heard a legitimate acknowledgment of how Gruden had the lowest win percentage by far than any other coach after winning a Superbowl.

Also combine this with the fact that Gruden's players, analysts, and many posters have asserted that Gruden won with a Dungy-built-roster.

Of all the other Superbowl winners, Gruden's Superbowl win seems the flakiest.

And Remixxxxxxx, obviously I know who those other coaches are. I think a lot of posters fail to realize the issues with Jon Gruden.


Why were his teams in Oakland so successful then? Because they weren't in the playoffs the 5 years before him, and only once since.
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RollEagles


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
You need to finish a great post like that with an "oh yeah and he won a Super Bowl too..." Laughing


Cool. That makes a lot of people a great coach.


Brian Billick, come on down.

By PE's standards, you are automatically qualified to be the next head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles.
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oland11


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So....Do I get props for starting this argument that got us closer to #500K? Very Happy

And who won this argument?

P.S. If we do hire Gruden i'm going to the NovaCare Complex to protest(Weapon-free) Anyone with me?
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
Phire wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
People forget Bruce Allen and Rich McKay were in charge of personel in Tampa during the Gruden regime. Al Davis was in charge in Oakland. The fact is while I'm sure he had some say like most head coaches do "Hey I think this guy would fit my system." But it wasn't his final decision.


Phire wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Gruden-may-be-over-his-head-Dealing-with-2508914.php

Quote:
Gruden may be over his head / Dealing with personnel and salary caps is a new ballgame for savvy coach

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for. Jon Gruden essentially won the power struggle at Tampa Bay the minute the Bucs won the Super Bowl, but now that Gruden has taken total control of the team's football operation, he may find that being king is not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:
McKay believed in long-term plans, in building through the draft, as much as possible in avoiding players with checkered pasts. Gruden is more willing to dig through the scrap heap for players who might help short-term and wasn't as picky as McKay about player backgrounds.


Thats a San Francisco paper talking about a Tampa Bay football team, with all do respect I'm not sure thats much of a reputible source. Either way, Gruden, having failed if he was in fact in charge of personel, may only want to be a coach, and if he is then he's a great option here. As far as the player background thing, McKay drafted Sapp who had off field issues, and I'm sure there were others. Also as far as McKay looking to build through the draft, he went all Al Davis to get Gruden in town. Theres a lot of questions with that article.


You can question the source all you want. It seems to be echoing what Buccaneers fans have already said.

Gruden did have personnel control. He's a prideful guy with a good track record, of course he wants control. Imagine coaching a football team and not being able to pick the guys you want for it. Remember Vince Young and Jeff Fisher?

It is my belief that head coaches should always have a large input into who is drafted for that team. Most GMs aren't football guys anyways.

McKay went and got Gruden because he was desperate. They let Dungy go expecting to get Bill Parcells. Gruden wasn't even on their radar.

After they got word that Parcells didn't want the job, Dungy was already in Indianapolis.

So they went to Davis and got swindled hard by him. They wanted to go after a "popular" guy so they didn't look absolutely ridiculous and start a riot within the fans.


I adressed the rest when I edited my post, but the bolded is false. I think if you ask anyone they would trade those draft picks for a superbowl too. You can say that was Dungy's team all you want, but with Dungy, those teams weren't worth a damn outside on the road, hell Dungy never went to a Superbowl he didn't have homefield.
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