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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3281
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
1) I doubt the Browns take a QB. Weeden is their guy, and if they were that concerned with his age they wouldnt have taken him in the 1st. My guess is they go pass rusher or DT, or trade back.

2) I am really coming around to the idea of drafting Star if available. It seems like he could single-handedly change our defense. It seems like every week there is another prospect I warm up to, which is a good thing because it likely means I'll be happy with whoever we pick. Right now I think my rankings go: Geno Smith, Star, Mingo, Barkley, Jones, but it is pretty fluid and I'm not set at all. If somehow all those guys are gone when our turn comes up, I want to trade back and take BPA at any position of need.


I think the browns take a QB if he's there. After this year they'll be under new management after all.


Holmgren fired today. Surprised? Shurmur, Brad Childress are on the chopping block if they don't win. New owner, New GM, New HC, New OC + a team without starpower and they'll pass on a Heisman winning QB (whoever that may be)?

I know you won't want to accept it because it doesn't fit with your scenario of the Raiders getting Genome.


We could always tank the game against them. Laughing
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't help but wonder who actually is in the QB market. JAX, CLE and BUF have potential to be. They all have committed to QBs recently though. It will be interesting to see how the new CBA's rookie cap comes into play here with the Jags and Browns especially.

KC will be almost a lock imo. If they don't dump hapless Romeo and Cassel I'll be shocked. It'll either be a scapegoat thing for Pioli or ownership will just axe all 3 of them.

Not sure where we'll finish either, so we may or may not be in the market too. Seems like RMcK will go defense or trade down but there is the chance of him going Geno or Barkley still. I doubt he'd trade up but depending on our position, I could see him staying put and going QB. Not the most likely scenario imo but could happen still.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long has it been since we have drafted in the 1st or had a dominant DE presence?
I say go with that guy. QB can wait a year, impact defenders are desperately needed here, yesterday.

Part of the problem with our string of high 1st rounders is that most of them have been, in my opinion, picks in the wrong positions.
Going back to Janikowski - 1st rounders since 2000 :
K, S, CB, LB, CB, OT (right position), CB, S, QB, RB, WR, LB.

Only one offensive tackle, one QB who busted big time. Those are the right positions to draft high first round. No DEs or DTs.......

5 secondary players, 2 linebackers, 2 skill position players, and a kicker.
There should be 3 QBs in there, 2 or 3 OTs, and 3 DEs. It's totally out of whack.

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my general opinion, no team with deep personnel and talent issues should be drafting players who play what I would call "secondary" positions high in the first round unless said team is dead certain those players are sooooo good that they will change your team makeup. In my mind you can get better value from those positions in later rounds, and in some cases an impact player in the 2nd. And it is more challenging to get a true impact defensive end, offensive tackle, or quarterback player outside of the first round.

If you take the team name off of our drafts, drafting the positions we have makes it look like we are a team like the Giants or Steelers. I.E. a successful playoff team looking to add the last pieces of the puzzle. Not the team that we are, looking to build it's core. You'd think we had a core by the way we have drafted.


Gotta get that dominant defensive lineman. Last 1st round DL we picked was Darrell Russell 15 years ago if you can believe that. An the last DE was Anthony Smith 22 years ago. That's mind boggling.

Now, if you think a truly great QB prospect is on the board when we pick, it has to trump everything else regardless of whether or not we are set at the position. A truly great QB can change the makeup and future of your team far more than any other position.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 8226
Location: CA
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
I think the Houston experiment at DE is coming to an end, he's going back to DT. That leaves a bigger need DE. Houston can play UT and the Raiders can draft a quality NT in the third round.


I think people need to get this notion out of their head. Houston wouldn't be any better inside. He's undersized and this isn't the University of Texas.

Fans keep point to this, but there has been ZERO indication ever that the staff feels his place is inside. Personally, I think he'd be a liability inside.


Can't that same, pointless comment be made for every DT coming out of the draft? Laughing

He made his mark at Texas as a DT on the nations top ranked run D. At over 300 lbs, with 30 bench reps, why wouldn't he be able to play the position exactly?

The Raiders moved him outside because he has the athleticism to do so while Seymour and Kelly combine for millions inside at DT.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Can't help but wonder who actually is in the QB market. JAX, CLE and BUF have potential to be. They all have committed to QBs recently though. It will be interesting to see how the new CBA's rookie cap comes into play here with the Jags and Browns especially.

KC will be almost a lock imo. If they don't dump hapless Romeo and Cassel I'll be shocked. It'll either be a scapegoat thing for Pioli or ownership will just axe all 3 of them.

Not sure where we'll finish either, so we may or may not be in the market too. Seems like RMcK will go defense or trade down but there is the chance of him going Geno or Barkley still. I doubt he'd trade up but depending on our position, I could see him staying put and going QB. Not the most likely scenario imo but could happen still.


We discussed this in General about a month ago. There definitely is not a lot of teams that will be vying for a QB. KC. Jets (probably not). 9ers. Cowboys. Bears. I dunno.... I'm reaching w/ majority.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Can't help but wonder who actually is in the QB market. JAX, CLE and BUF have potential to be. They all have committed to QBs recently though. It will be interesting to see how the new CBA's rookie cap comes into play here with the Jags and Browns especially.

KC will be almost a lock imo. If they don't dump hapless Romeo and Cassel I'll be shocked. It'll either be a scapegoat thing for Pioli or ownership will just axe all 3 of them.

Not sure where we'll finish either, so we may or may not be in the market too. Seems like RMcK will go defense or trade down but there is the chance of him going Geno or Barkley still. I doubt he'd trade up but depending on our position, I could see him staying put and going QB. Not the most likely scenario imo but could happen still.


We discussed this in General about a month ago. There definitely is not a lot of teams that will be vying for a QB. KC. Jets (probably not). 9ers. Cowboys. Bears. I dunno.... I'm reaching w/ majority.


SF has Kaepernick, so they're fine.

NYJ could ditch Sanchez, but its been said Tebow will stick around for years. Could mean he gets the start. But you can't trust everything that is said.

Cowboys, I doubt it.

Bears, I doubt it.

Its down to us, JAX, KC, Buffalo and Cleveland as far as possibilities go. But not all of them are guaranteed to be in the market either.
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dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Can't help but wonder who actually is in the QB market. JAX, CLE and BUF have potential to be. They all have committed to QBs recently though. It will be interesting to see how the new CBA's rookie cap comes into play here with the Jags and Browns especially.

KC will be almost a lock imo. If they don't dump hapless Romeo and Cassel I'll be shocked. It'll either be a scapegoat thing for Pioli or ownership will just axe all 3 of them.

Not sure where we'll finish either, so we may or may not be in the market too. Seems like RMcK will go defense or trade down but there is the chance of him going Geno or Barkley still. I doubt he'd trade up but depending on our position, I could see him staying put and going QB. Not the most likely scenario imo but could happen still.


We discussed this in General about a month ago. There definitely is not a lot of teams that will be vying for a QB. KC. Jets (probably not). 9ers. Cowboys. Bears. I dunno.... I'm reaching w/ majority.


SF has Kaepernick, so they're fine.

NYJ could ditch Sanchez, but its been said Tebow will stick around for years. Could mean he gets the start. But you can't trust everything that is said.

Cowboys, I doubt it.

Bears, I doubt it.

Its down to us, JAX, KC, Buffalo and Cleveland as far as possibilities go. But not all of them are guaranteed to be in the market either.


Right now IMO, KC is the only clear cut team looking for a QB early in the draft. Sucks for us because they will most likely end up with Geno. And although he has flaws and hasnt played an NFL snap, with the speed on that offence, he could be a phenomenal fit
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5379
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
1) I doubt the Browns take a QB. Weeden is their guy, and if they were that concerned with his age they wouldnt have taken him in the 1st. My guess is they go pass rusher or DT, or trade back.

2) I am really coming around to the idea of drafting Star if available. It seems like he could single-handedly change our defense. It seems like every week there is another prospect I warm up to, which is a good thing because it likely means I'll be happy with whoever we pick. Right now I think my rankings go: Geno Smith, Star, Mingo, Barkley, Jones, but it is pretty fluid and I'm not set at all. If somehow all those guys are gone when our turn comes up, I want to trade back and take BPA at any position of need.


I think the browns take a QB if he's there. After this year they'll be under new management after all.


Holmgren fired today. Surprised? Shurmur, Brad Childress are on the chopping block if they don't win. New owner, New GM, New HC, New OC + a team without starpower and they'll pass on a Heisman winning QB (whoever that may be)?

I know you won't want to accept it because it doesn't fit with your scenario of the Raiders getting Genome.


It actually slipped my mind that they will have a new owner and such. Still I dont have a "scenario", I simply said I would be happy with Smith, along with like 5 other guys. I'm not jocking any one player more than another at this point.

I'm not saying I think they will pass on a Heisman winning QB, but they certainly need a lot of help across their defense. They have to play Roethlisberger, Flacco, and Dalton twice a year and they lack a pass rush. They are also terrible against the run. They are in the same boat as us- they need help all over. Some people think we could pass on Smith in favor of a pass rusher, DT or CB, or trade back to fill our multitude of needs... whos to say they wouldnt do the same?
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Part of the problem with our string of high 1st rounders is that most of them have been, in my opinion, picks in the wrong positions.
Going back to Janikowski - 1st rounders since 2000 :
K, S, CB, LB, CB, OT (right position), CB, S, QB, RB, WR, LB.

Only one offensive tackle, one QB who busted big time. Those are the right positions to draft high first round. No DEs or DTs......


+1

Unless a phenom is available like Calvin Johnson, I think QB, OL, DL are the top-3 "positions" to go after in the first. I want a team with a real, solid foundation before we do anything else. You cant take a great offensive line out of the game, because they can handle anything a defense throws at them. Add a good QB and odds are you will be fine on offense. On D, get some linemen who can rush the passer and stop the run well and it will make average LBs look good. Once you have those positions set, then go after a top-flight WR or ballhawking CB. The number of DBs weve taken since like 2000 or whenever is disgusting to me.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3281
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Can't help but wonder who actually is in the QB market. JAX, CLE and BUF have potential to be. They all have committed to QBs recently though. It will be interesting to see how the new CBA's rookie cap comes into play here with the Jags and Browns especially.

KC will be almost a lock imo. If they don't dump hapless Romeo and Cassel I'll be shocked. It'll either be a scapegoat thing for Pioli or ownership will just axe all 3 of them.

Not sure where we'll finish either, so we may or may not be in the market too. Seems like RMcK will go defense or trade down but there is the chance of him going Geno or Barkley still. I doubt he'd trade up but depending on our position, I could see him staying put and going QB. Not the most likely scenario imo but could happen still.


We discussed this in General about a month ago. There definitely is not a lot of teams that will be vying for a QB. KC. Jets (probably not). 9ers. Cowboys. Bears. I dunno.... I'm reaching w/ majority.


SF has Kaepernick, so they're fine.

NYJ could ditch Sanchez, but its been said Tebow will stick around for years. Could mean he gets the start. But you can't trust everything that is said.

Cowboys, I doubt it.

Bears, I doubt it.

Its down to us, JAX, KC, Buffalo and Cleveland as far as possibilities go. But not all of them are guaranteed to be in the market either.


Right now IMO, KC is the only clear cut team looking for a QB early in the draft. Sucks for us because they will most likely end up with Geno. And although he has flaws and hasnt played an NFL snap, with the speed on that offence, he could be a phenomenal fit


Or...we could tank. Lose the battle win the war.



I'm totally kidding by the way.

Although I think Romo is getting dumped this year. Gabbert will get one more year at best. Fitzpatrick is done.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5379
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Can't help but wonder who actually is in the QB market. JAX, CLE and BUF have potential to be. They all have committed to QBs recently though. It will be interesting to see how the new CBA's rookie cap comes into play here with the Jags and Browns especially.

KC will be almost a lock imo. If they don't dump hapless Romeo and Cassel I'll be shocked. It'll either be a scapegoat thing for Pioli or ownership will just axe all 3 of them.

Not sure where we'll finish either, so we may or may not be in the market too. Seems like RMcK will go defense or trade down but there is the chance of him going Geno or Barkley still. I doubt he'd trade up but depending on our position, I could see him staying put and going QB. Not the most likely scenario imo but could happen still.


We discussed this in General about a month ago. There definitely is not a lot of teams that will be vying for a QB. KC. Jets (probably not). 9ers. Cowboys. Bears. I dunno.... I'm reaching w/ majority.


SF has Kaepernick, so they're fine.

NYJ could ditch Sanchez, but its been said Tebow will stick around for years. Could mean he gets the start. But you can't trust everything that is said.

Cowboys, I doubt it.

Bears, I doubt it.

Its down to us, JAX, KC, Buffalo and Cleveland as far as possibilities go. But not all of them are guaranteed to be in the market either.


Right now IMO, KC is the only clear cut team looking for a QB early in the draft. Sucks for us because they will most likely end up with Geno. And although he has flaws and hasnt played an NFL snap, with the speed on that offence, he could be a phenomenal fit


I say KC, and BUF for certain. Cassell is never going to work out, and this will be their best shot at a QB because once they get one, I doubt they pick top-10 for quite a while. BUF threw a ton of money on Fitzpatrick, but he is just not good and I think they cut their losses and move on. JAX and CLE are, IMO, not locks, but could certainly take a QB. Both have young (well, in terms of NFL service for Weeden) QBs already. Gabbert has sucked so far, but has also lacked any talent on offense aside from his RB. They and CLE both need help in quite a few areas, so its possible they either pass on QB or trade back. Sanchez has worn out his welcome in New York, and his only supporter, Ryan, may be on his way out of town. However, like you said, everyone has a giant Teboner so I could see them passing on QB and tries to convince whoever the coach may be to roll with him.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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reddevil


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 579
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
How long has it been since we have drafted in the 1st or had a dominant DE presence?
I say go with that guy. QB can wait a year, impact defenders are desperately needed here, yesterday.

Part of the problem with our string of high 1st rounders is that most of them have been, in my opinion, picks in the wrong positions.
Going back to Janikowski - 1st rounders since 2000 :
K, S, CB, LB, CB, OT (right position), CB, S, QB, RB, WR, LB.

Only one offensive tackle, one QB who busted big time. Those are the right positions to draft high first round. No DEs or DTs.......

5 secondary players, 2 linebackers, 2 skill position players, and a kicker.
There should be 3 QBs in there, 2 or 3 OTs, and 3 DEs. It's totally out of whack.

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my general opinion, no team with deep personnel and talent issues should be drafting players who play what I would call "secondary" positions high in the first round unless said team is dead certain those players are sooooo good that they will change your team makeup. In my mind you can get better value from those positions in later rounds, and in some cases an impact player in the 2nd. And it is more challenging to get a true impact defensive end, offensive tackle, or quarterback player outside of the first round.

If you take the team name off of our drafts, drafting the positions we have makes it look like we are a team like the Giants or Steelers. I.E. a successful playoff team looking to add the last pieces of the puzzle. Not the team that we are, looking to build it's core. You'd think we had a core by the way we have drafted.


Gotta get that dominant defensive lineman. Last 1st round DL we picked was Darrell Russell 15 years ago if you can believe that. An the last DE was Anthony Smith 22 years ago. That's mind boggling.

Now, if you think a truly great QB prospect is on the board when we pick, it has to trump everything else regardless of whether or not we are set at the position. A truly great QB can change the makeup and future of your team far more than any other position.


Great post Holy. This is exactly how I feel. The 3 positions you mention are the ones you have to draft high. All other positions can be dealt with later on or through free agency. Once you have your pass-rush, bookend OTs and QB, you can start a franchise proper. Until then, you are always fighting against the tide.
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macklemore


Joined: 27 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the best and only option is to trade down and aquire a 2nd and 4th round pick maybe more. We need all the help we can get, even 5th round picks are valuable to us because we lack depth at just about every position.

I would trade down into the 20's, the 2013 draft is stacked with passrushers. We also need a CB and a DT assuming Seymour or Kelly is gone. I honestly wouldn't mind if our entire draft was defensive players. Reggie can find a OL help in FA.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
IMO the best and only option is to trade down and aquire a 2nd and 4th round pick maybe more. We need all the help we can get, even 5th round picks are valuable to us because we lack depth at just about every position.

I would trade down into the 20's, the 2013 draft is stacked with passrushers. We also need a CB and a DT assuming Seymour or Kelly is gone. I honestly wouldn't mind if our entire draft was defensive players. Reggie can find a OL help in FA.


Where is everyone getting these avis?
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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macklemore


Joined: 27 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
macklemore wrote:
IMO the best and only option is to trade down and aquire a 2nd and 4th round pick maybe more. We need all the help we can get, even 5th round picks are valuable to us because we lack depth at just about every position.

I would trade down into the 20's, the 2013 draft is stacked with passrushers. We also need a CB and a DT assuming Seymour or Kelly is gone. I honestly wouldn't mind if our entire draft was defensive players. Reggie can find a OL help in FA.


Where is everyone getting these avis?


im makin 'em, haven't been to the gameday thread yet huh?

who do you want ill hook it up.
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