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Professor Oak


Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 3644
Location: Pallet Town
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
No thanks to drafting a LT. Not even if we trade down. I like Veldheer at LT & feel he's a fixture at that spot for us for a long time. I don't even want to mess around with changing his position. You should never change something that is working well.

I'd be fine with Warmack if we trade down. I think he will be a solid player & he obviously fills a hole in our interior. He doesn't fit ZBS, though. Howie's kid, Kyle, is another intriguing prospect. Great physical ability but needs coaching. I would take him if he were there in round 3.


Disagree. System stuff is just so overspoken and misunderstood.

Tony Bergstrom was the top rated ZBS specific G prospect, how did that work out? Not so great. You don't need a "ZBS fit". You just need, in the ZBS, to generally stay away from guys who really can't run at all. Fat, slow, mashers won't work. Warmack is not a fat, slow, masher.

As long as Warmack has some necessary mobility (and he would never be the prospect he is if he didn't have good mobility) then he will be just fine in zone blocking. The better a guy as a prospect and player, is the better he will take to anything as far as calls and system. And besides, zone run calls are about 1/4 to 1/3 of this guy's job. The other chunk is power and gap run calls, and pass protection.

I don't agree with that when it comes to OL.

Warmack may be capable of playing in the ZBS (which we don't even know whether it will be kept or not), but it would be a waste of his talent & strengths in my eyes. Yes he has the athleticism, but I see him excelling more in a PBS. Putting him in this type of scheme will limit his abilities as the drive blocker that he is.

As far as Bergstrom goes, it's way too early to say it hasn't gone great. He's a mid round rookie who is playing behind 2 experienced G's right now. Your expectations for him might be a little way too high.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5754
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
No thanks to drafting a LT. Not even if we trade down. I like Veldheer at LT & feel he's a fixture at that spot for us for a long time. I don't even want to mess around with changing his position. You should never change something that is working well.

I'd be fine with Warmack if we trade down. I think he will be a solid player & he obviously fills a hole in our interior. He doesn't fit ZBS, though. Howie's kid, Kyle, is another intriguing prospect. Great physical ability but needs coaching. I would take him if he were there in round 3.


Disagree. System stuff is just so overspoken and misunderstood.

Tony Bergstrom was the top rated ZBS specific G prospect, how did that work out? Not so great. You don't need a "ZBS fit". You just need, in the ZBS, to generally stay away from guys who really can't run at all. Fat, slow, mashers won't work. Warmack is not a fat, slow, masher.

As long as Warmack has some necessary mobility (and he would never be the prospect he is if he didn't have good mobility) then he will be just fine in zone blocking. The better a guy as a prospect and player, is the better he will take to anything as far as calls and system. And besides, zone run calls are about 1/4 to 1/3 of this guy's job. The other chunk is power and gap run calls, and pass protection.



He's a middle round rookie, bit early to be calling him a failure already.


I didn't use the word failure, did I? And the purpose of the post had very little to do with him. It was intended to illustrate the overblown idea that in order for a guy to succeed in the ZBS, he has to be a "System fit". What does that mean?
In this case all it really actually means is that he has to have a measure of mobility and fitness in order to make his marks and spots - mobility, and be able to handle the greater degree of lateral movement during a game - fitness. Which Warmack will, and quite a bit better than a supposed ZBS prospect like Bergstrom..

Bergstrom apparently is a great system fit. However, he is not a great prospect so what does it matter? Willie Smith has what you would expect would be great for a ZBS prospect as far as fitness and mobility, and athleticism. Doesn't matter, because he's not that good as a player.

Warmack will be just fine in ZBS. He'll be just fine in any system. Top prospects can handle different systems much better than lesser prospects, and the higher you go the more versatile they are.

System fitting is sooooooo overrated. On Offense and Defense every team mixes in calls and alignments that require any number of skills, that span across every system. A good prospect is a good prospect and an average one is an average one. If you have a prospect that is a system "fit" to me it only really says they are not a very good prospect because they need to be in a particular singular system in order to succeed. And since no team calls one set of system plays again and again, prospects like that really only end up being poor ones who are one dimensional and exposed once their weaknesses are found by opponents.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3622
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
bitty wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Am I the only one that's starting to warm up to taking a franchise left tackle with our first round pick? If we slid Jared Veldheer over to the right side we'd be set at both tackle spots for the next decade. And as we're more than likely going to acquire our quarterback of the future over the next year or two we need to make sure we have a good offensive line in front of him.


Go ahead moving him to RT he will get pissed off and leave via free agency to go play LT for someone else. Apparently no one understand about team chemistry and keep the players happy.


IMO if he gets that p'd from moving from LT to RT then he isn't going to be a backbone of 'team first' ideology and chemistry is he??

Having said that, I personally think he would be fine moving to RT and getting paid handsomly as a top RT rather than journeyman LT which is what he would probably be if he left in FA.


From C to LT to RT in three years why would he get mad?


You seriously live in a dream reality don't you?

Veldheer is a humble, good kid. He's the type that will do whatever coaches ask without blinking.

You seriously think he's the type to create turmoil getting moved around? Yeah.... me neither.



Where did i say turmoil I Said he'll leave through free agency
next year. I hate to break it to you but people aren't kicking in the door to play for the Raiders.
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TiberiusRising


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 8502
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure the Packers will let him leave but we should go after Evan Dietrich-Smith

Plays all interior position. FA this upcoming year.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22112
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
bitty wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Am I the only one that's starting to warm up to taking a franchise left tackle with our first round pick? If we slid Jared Veldheer over to the right side we'd be set at both tackle spots for the next decade. And as we're more than likely going to acquire our quarterback of the future over the next year or two we need to make sure we have a good offensive line in front of him.


Go ahead moving him to RT he will get pissed off and leave via free agency to go play LT for someone else. Apparently no one understand about team chemistry and keep the players happy.


IMO if he gets that p'd from moving from LT to RT then he isn't going to be a backbone of 'team first' ideology and chemistry is he??

Having said that, I personally think he would be fine moving to RT and getting paid handsomly as a top RT rather than journeyman LT which is what he would probably be if he left in FA.


From C to LT to RT in three years why would he get mad?


You seriously live in a dream reality don't you?

Veldheer is a humble, good kid. He's the type that will do whatever coaches ask without blinking.

You seriously think he's the type to create turmoil getting moved around? Yeah.... me neither.



Where did i say turmoil I Said he'll leave through free agency
next year. I hate to break it to you but people aren't kicking in the door to play for the Raiders.


You said he would be p'd. That suggest turmoil. If he was 'p'd off' that would be an issue and that's not who he is.

Player will play where the money is. Period. Nicks and Jackson went to Tampa in FA. Mario Williams went to Buffalo. The list goes on. It's about money.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3622
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
bitty wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Am I the only one that's starting to warm up to taking a franchise left tackle with our first round pick? If we slid Jared Veldheer over to the right side we'd be set at both tackle spots for the next decade. And as we're more than likely going to acquire our quarterback of the future over the next year or two we need to make sure we have a good offensive line in front of him.


Go ahead moving him to RT he will get pissed off and leave via free agency to go play LT for someone else. Apparently no one understand about team chemistry and keep the players happy.


IMO if he gets that p'd from moving from LT to RT then he isn't going to be a backbone of 'team first' ideology and chemistry is he??

Having said that, I personally think he would be fine moving to RT and getting paid handsomly as a top RT rather than journeyman LT which is what he would probably be if he left in FA.


From C to LT to RT in three years why would he get mad?


You seriously live in a dream reality don't you?

Veldheer is a humble, good kid. He's the type that will do whatever coaches ask without blinking.

You seriously think he's the type to create turmoil getting moved around? Yeah.... me neither.



Where did i say turmoil I Said he'll leave through free agency
next year. I hate to break it to you but people aren't kicking in the door to play for the Raiders.


You said he would be p'd. That suggest turmoil. If he was 'p'd off' that would be an issue and that's not who he is.

Player will play where the money is. Period. Nicks and Jackson went to Tampa in FA. Mario Williams went to Buffalo. The list goes on. It's about money.


Thank you
So why would a LT in his last year of his rookie contract move to RT and take a pay cut.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 20150
Location: Crown Town, CA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
bitty wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Am I the only one that's starting to warm up to taking a franchise left tackle with our first round pick? If we slid Jared Veldheer over to the right side we'd be set at both tackle spots for the next decade. And as we're more than likely going to acquire our quarterback of the future over the next year or two we need to make sure we have a good offensive line in front of him.


Go ahead moving him to RT he will get pissed off and leave via free agency to go play LT for someone else. Apparently no one understand about team chemistry and keep the players happy.


IMO if he gets that p'd from moving from LT to RT then he isn't going to be a backbone of 'team first' ideology and chemistry is he??

Having said that, I personally think he would be fine moving to RT and getting paid handsomly as a top RT rather than journeyman LT which is what he would probably be if he left in FA.


From C to LT to RT in three years why would he get mad?


You seriously live in a dream reality don't you?

Veldheer is a humble, good kid. He's the type that will do whatever coaches ask without blinking.

You seriously think he's the type to create turmoil getting moved around? Yeah.... me neither.



Where did i say turmoil I Said he'll leave through free agency
next year. I hate to break it to you but people aren't kicking in the door to play for the Raiders.


You said he would be p'd. That suggest turmoil. If he was 'p'd off' that would be an issue and that's not who he is.

Player will play where the money is. Period. Nicks and Jackson went to Tampa in FA. Mario Williams went to Buffalo. The list goes on. It's about money.


Thank you
So why would a LT in his last year of his rookie contract move to RT and take a pay cut.


You swear like the guy is gonna break the bank in Free Agency. He was a 3rd pick so he's gonna get more anyways even if he goes to RT. Plus you'd think he'd like to keep his family in Oakland.
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Tacos


Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 1170
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we somehow acquire a second or he's available in the third how do you guys feel about David Amerson?

If we didn't have such big needs on the DL and in pass rushing I'd love to take Poyer in the first and Amerson in the second but that can't happen.
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Oaktown


Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 3246
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tacos wrote:
If we somehow acquire a second or he's available in the third how do you guys feel about David Amerson?

If we didn't have such big needs on the DL and in pass rushing I'd love to take Poyer in the first and Amerson in the second but that can't happen.


Like him to play Fs at the next level. Wold be a good pick. I like kyle long too. Ideal zbs rt
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dawsonleery


Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 647
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brandon Williams, DT, Missouri Southern State 6'2 328



2012 MIAA Defensive Player of the Year, 5 forced fumbles, 8.5 sacks, 16.5 tackle for loss. Small school guy but is a force on the D-line. Should be a top 100 pick. 3rd round steal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGSMeSZXQdM\


check him out.
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coach 2007


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 409
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone watching the Boise State/Washington game. CB Jamar Taylor(#5)
is a phyiscal corner who doesnt mind coming up against the run. Where do you think he could fall? Could we take a look to draft him?


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CaliforniaKid7


Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 5500
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more and more I read and watch of Sheldon Richardson I like him. If we traded down a few spots I'd love to get him.
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Professor Oak


Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 3644
Location: Pallet Town
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
System fitting is sooooooo overrated. On Offense and Defense every team mixes in calls and alignments that require any number of skills, that span across every system. A good prospect is a good prospect and an average one is an average one. If you have a prospect that is a system "fit" to me it only really says they are not a very good prospect because they need to be in a particular singular system in order to succeed. And since no team calls one set of system plays again and again, prospects like that really only end up being poor ones who are one dimensional and exposed once their weaknesses are found by opponents.

I don't think system fitting is overrated at all.

A good prospect can play in any scheme, but does that mean he can excel in any scheme? No.

Certain players have certain strengths & weaknesses. Not everyone is as perfect at everything as you seem to be thinking. Very few players are versatile & balanced. That's why they are so sought after in the draft. Teams try to draft players who they feel fit their system. (Good) Coaches utilize their player's strengths by putting them in systems they can excel at with their skillsets. I'm not sure how you think scheme is overrated when it can boost/limit certain player's abilities. I can name many situations in different sports where system/scheme has altered a players/teams success. We even have a few examples on this very team.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dawsonleery wrote:
Brandon Williams, DT, Missouri Southern State 6'2 328



2012 MIAA Defensive Player of the Year, 5 forced fumbles, 8.5 sacks, 16.5 tackle for loss. Small school guy but is a force on the D-line. Should be a top 100 pick. 3rd round steal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGSMeSZXQdM\


check him out.


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Bo_Spice


Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 9687
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coach 2007 wrote:
Anyone watching the Boise State/Washington game. CB Jamar Taylor(#5)
is a phyiscal corner who doesnt mind coming up against the run. Where do you think he could fall? Could we take a look to draft him?



He looks like a solid third round pick.
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