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NextBigThing


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 22782
Location: Beat Of My Own Drum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
I will say, I wouldn't be completely opposed to Hunter at 29 if he's there. Trading up for Patterson isn't happening, though.


Hunter is an odd prospect. If he ever returns to the guy he was in 2010 and 2011, he would be a major steal at 29. But in 2012, he was a mid 2nd rounder with upside.

He is a guy who gets by on straight line speed coupled with average quickness. It's similar to Calvin Johnson in that regard. His lateral explosion leaves a bit to be desired. Some games, his straight line speed is all world and has everyone saying he will run in the 4.2's. Other time, he is even and not leaving at all.

If we're looking for someone who can punish defenses down the field who try and play him shallow, IDK if he is the guy or not. He could be, the potential is there. But he's been very inconsistent.

I'd take him 29 obviously, if CP and TW are gone. But I'd rather trade up for CP than take Hunter at 29.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 24722
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Spikes is a liability in coverage, but he is so good against the run it hard to let him just leave.

Again, if the Pats cant figure it out with Mayo/Spikes/Hightower, the coaches need to go, not the players.


I find this to be a bizarre statement. You have two guys who were somewhere between below average and awful at times last year in pass coverage. How can the coaches "figure it out" without taking at least one of them (and preferably both) off the field in 50%+ of their downs?

If we lived in an uncapped world, I'd 100% agree with you. But the reality is that as of now - and I admit freely that Hightower could improve significantly going forward - you have two guys with redundant and poor skill sets in the way they fit into sub packages. With Spikes's contract coming to an end, it's very possible they'd let him go.

I think we both agree that Mayo is the team's best pass defense LB. So he's going to be on the field on mostly every sub package down. So it's really difficult to see how Spikes and Hightower can co-exist on the roster for a long time (i.e. beyond Spikes's rookie contract) unless the team is willing to have a poor pass defense player on the field in all 2 LB sub packages. Any situation where both those guys are on the bench is a subpar use of resources.


mcmurtry86 wrote:
Yes, the reason the Pats got smoked by the Ravens was that they didn't have geriatric Randy Moss running go routes. It had nothing to do with a pass rush that couldn't pressure, a secondary that couldn't cover and defenders who couldn't tackle.

I agree with you that the Pats need an upgrade on the perimeter. Suggesting that it is "the" missing piece - to the extent of trading multiple high picks to move up - is hyperbole.

It's "a" missing piece, but by no means the only thing holding the team back. You can argue til you're blue in the face that the Pats have lost in the post season because of the lack of a deep threat but their secondary and pass rush haven't been championship caliber and the OL has let the team down badly in big spots.


Quote:

One doesn't need championship caliber players at every position to win. I think adding a top tier WR has a bigger impact than adding a better interior defensive lineman, or a better safety, etc.


You think the upgrade from Lloyd to Patterson is more significant than the upgrade from Brandon Deaderick to (example) Sylvester Williams or Tavon Wilson/Steve Gregory to Matt Elam (or whichever safety you like)?

Really?
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m haynes


Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 811
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might want to look for someone different the S Williams. Mayock showed file on him getting knock back off the line and question his intensity. Claims he take plays off. I look at his bio and it said he quit football after HS. Will he get his 1st check and check out after. Another Ron Brace !!

[quote] Bottom Line
Williams quit the game after high school, but missed it enough to try again as a junior college enrollee.[/quote]


http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sylvester-williams?id=2539270


mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
Spikes is a liability in coverage, but he is so good against the run it hard to let him just leave.

Again, if the Pats cant figure it out with Mayo/Spikes/Hightower, the coaches need to go, not the players.


I find this to be a bizarre statement. You have two guys who were somewhere between below average and awful at times last year in pass coverage. How can the coaches "figure it out" without taking at least one of them (and preferably both) off the field in 50%+ of their downs?

If we lived in an uncapped world, I'd 100% agree with you. But the reality is that as of now - and I admit freely that Hightower could improve significantly going forward - you have two guys with redundant and poor skill sets in the way they fit into sub packages. With Spikes's contract coming to an end, it's very possible they'd let him go.

I think we both agree that Mayo is the team's best pass defense LB. So he's going to be on the field on mostly every sub package down. So it's really difficult to see how Spikes and Hightower can co-exist on the roster for a long time (i.e. beyond Spikes's rookie contract) unless the team is willing to have a poor pass defense player on the field in all 2 LB sub packages. Any situation where both those guys are on the bench is a subpar use of resources.


mcmurtry86 wrote:
Yes, the reason the Pats got smoked by the Ravens was that they didn't have geriatric Randy Moss running go routes. It had nothing to do with a pass rush that couldn't pressure, a secondary that couldn't cover and defenders who couldn't tackle.

I agree with you that the Pats need an upgrade on the perimeter. Suggesting that it is "the" missing piece - to the extent of trading multiple high picks to move up - is hyperbole.

It's "a" missing piece, but by no means the only thing holding the team back. You can argue til you're blue in the face that the Pats have lost in the post season because of the lack of a deep threat but their secondary and pass rush haven't been championship caliber and the OL has let the team down badly in big spots.


Quote:

One doesn't need championship caliber players at every position to win. I think adding a top tier WR has a bigger impact than adding a better interior defensive lineman, or a better safety, etc.


You think the upgrade from Lloyd to Patterson is more significant than the upgrade from Brandon Deaderick to (example) Sylvester Williams or Tavon Wilson/Steve Gregory to Matt Elam (or whichever safety you like)?

Really?
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I_GET_SAX


Joined: 17 Nov 2012
Posts: 6202
Location: The Granite State
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m haynes wrote:
Might want to look for someone different the S Williams. Mayock showed file on him getting knock back off the line and question his intensity. Claims he take plays off. I look at his bio and it said he quit football after HS. Will he get his 1st check and check out after. Another Ron Brace !!

[quote] Bottom Line
Williams quit the game after high school, but missed it enough to try again as a junior college enrollee.


http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sylvester-williams?id=2539270


mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
Spikes is a liability in coverage, but he is so good against the run it hard to let him just leave.

Again, if the Pats cant figure it out with Mayo/Spikes/Hightower, the coaches need to go, not the players.


I find this to be a bizarre statement. You have two guys who were somewhere between below average and awful at times last year in pass coverage. How can the coaches "figure it out" without taking at least one of them (and preferably both) off the field in 50%+ of their downs?

If we lived in an uncapped world, I'd 100% agree with you. But the reality is that as of now - and I admit freely that Hightower could improve significantly going forward - you have two guys with redundant and poor skill sets in the way they fit into sub packages. With Spikes's contract coming to an end, it's very possible they'd let him go.

I think we both agree that Mayo is the team's best pass defense LB. So he's going to be on the field on mostly every sub package down. So it's really difficult to see how Spikes and Hightower can co-exist on the roster for a long time (i.e. beyond Spikes's rookie contract) unless the team is willing to have a poor pass defense player on the field in all 2 LB sub packages. Any situation where both those guys are on the bench is a subpar use of resources.


mcmurtry86 wrote:
Yes, the reason the Pats got smoked by the Ravens was that they didn't have geriatric Randy Moss running go routes. It had nothing to do with a pass rush that couldn't pressure, a secondary that couldn't cover and defenders who couldn't tackle.

I agree with you that the Pats need an upgrade on the perimeter. Suggesting that it is "the" missing piece - to the extent of trading multiple high picks to move up - is hyperbole.

It's "a" missing piece, but by no means the only thing holding the team back. You can argue til you're blue in the face that the Pats have lost in the post season because of the lack of a deep threat but their secondary and pass rush haven't been championship caliber and the OL has let the team down badly in big spots.

Quote:

One doesn't need championship caliber players at every position to win. I think adding a top tier WR has a bigger impact than adding a better interior defensive lineman, or a better safety, etc.


You think the upgrade from Lloyd to Patterson is more significant than the upgrade from Brandon Deaderick to (example) Sylvester Williams or Tavon Wilson/Steve Gregory to Matt Elam (or whichever safety you like)?

Really?
[/quote]

Mmm I like Sly
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NextBigThing


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 22782
Location: Beat Of My Own Drum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
I find this to be a bizarre statement. You have two guys who were somewhere between below average and awful at times last year in pass coverage. How can the coaches "figure it out" without taking at least one of them (and preferably both) off the field in 50%+ of their downs?

If we lived in an uncapped world, I'd 100% agree with you. But the reality is that as of now - and I admit freely that Hightower could improve significantly going forward - you have two guys with redundant and poor skill sets in the way they fit into sub packages. With Spikes's contract coming to an end, it's very possible they'd let him go.

I think we both agree that Mayo is the team's best pass defense LB. So he's going to be on the field on mostly every sub package down. So it's really difficult to see how Spikes and Hightower can co-exist on the roster for a long time (i.e. beyond Spikes's rookie contract) unless the team is willing to have a poor pass defense player on the field in all 2 LB sub packages. Any situation where both those guys are on the bench is a subpar use of resources.


Personally, I'd like to see them get a bit more creative with their skill sets. They can do things other cover on passing downs. Spikes up the middle on blitz's is a beast, and Hightower is excellent of the edge. I like the idea of routinely moving the safety up cover the middle and sending Spikes up the middle blitzing. Creates pressure while solving the coverage problem. Requires above average corner back play from at least one corner, but if he plays off the receiver and simply doesn't get burnt before the QB gets sacked/throws elsewhere, the problem is solved.

I would be very interested in a scheme for passing downs featuring Hightower coming off the edge and Spikes coming up the middle. The safeties wold move up. With Wilfork and Jones on the line with those two guys joining them, the pressure on the OL and QB would be immense no matter who else is lining up on the defensive line.

Quote:
You think the upgrade from Lloyd to Patterson is more significant than the upgrade from Brandon Deaderick to (example) Sylvester Williams or Tavon Wilson/Steve Gregory to Matt Elam (or whichever safety you like)?

Really?


Well, I don't want to upgrade Lloyd. He a #2. I want Patterson-Lloyd-Hernandez-Gronkowsi receiving group with Edleman running around underneath on occasion, and Vereen out of the backfield.

But, if it just swapping Patteron for Lloyd, I think the impact isn't quite as big. But I would say it is a bigger impact than adding one of those guys, yes. I think someone with 4.3 game speed would do wonders in our offense. For example:

They love sending Gronkowski up the seam. The idea of sending Gronk up the seam with Patterson running a 9 on the same side is border line hilarious. Eirther CP or Rob Gronkowski - the games greatest red zone weapon - would walk into the end zone. If they adjust coverage to stop that, Hernandez, Lloyd, or Vereen on the side & underneath would be wide open. There is no way to conceivably match up for everyone on that offense. We would score unreal points.

So yes, I think Patterson has a bigger impact.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:

I would be very interested in a scheme for passing downs featuring Hightower coming off the edge and Spikes coming up the middle. The safeties wold move up. With Wilfork and Jones on the line with those two guys joining them, the pressure on the OL and QB would be immense no matter who else is lining up on the defensive line.


So your idea of "making it work" is creating a package where the 2 LB's on the field in pass situations are blitzing all the time?

Sorry, but I think that flies in the face of everything we've seen from Belichick as well as the nature of the league (quick over the middle passes).

Quote:
But I would say it is a bigger impact than adding one of those guys, yes. I think someone with 4.3 game speed would do wonders in our offense. For example:


At least you're consistent with your tendency to wildly overrate the impact perimeter WR's have on the game.

It's shown to be something the Pats really have to address but to suggest that Lloyd to Patterson is a bigger upgrade than Deaderick to a high-quality DT prospect (or Gregory to a top safety) is just something I will never agree with.

At the end of the day, even the best offenses prove to be mortal and stoppable. When those days occur, it would be nice to have a defense which doesn't implode consistently in big moments.
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NextBigThing


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
So your idea of "making it work" is creating a package where the 2 LB's on the field in pass situations are blitzing all the time?

Sorry, but I think that flies in the face of everything we've seen from Belichick as well as the nature of the league (quick over the middle passes).


Bring the safeties up - we should be fairly familiar with it, it is how defenses successfully stop our offense.

My package would be fairly simple.

Chandler, Wilfork, 3rd DL with hands in dirt rushing the passer. Hightower i on edge of 3rd DL, blitzing off the corner. That is 4 on 5, with 3 of them certified beasts. Send Spikes one of the interior gaps - whichever is the best match up. Drop Mayo and another line backer into cover, bring both safeties up if need be, and play the corners off.

The pressure would be overwhelming. It would force quick passes dependent upon rushed QB being accurate and receivers getting open in short amount of time. Any play beyond 1 or 2 seconds and the QB will be down.

TBH IDK if the offense knows its coming, either. That combination rushing the passer is beastly.

Quote:
At least you're consistent with your tendency to wildly overrate the impact perimeter WR's have on the game.


It isn't overrating them, not in todays league. Offenses win games.

Quote:
It's shown to be something the Pats really have to address but to suggest that Lloyd to Patterson is a bigger upgrade than Deaderick to a high-quality DT prospect (or Gregory to a top safety) is just something I will never agree with.


Then we agree to disagree.

Quote:
At the end of the day, even the best offenses prove to be mortal and stoppable. When those days occur, it would be nice to have a defense which doesn't implode consistently in big moments.


That is all well and good, but at an equal amount of days endings, even the best of defenses can crack. The 9ers tied and lost to the St. Louis Rams, for example. Simply evaluating our current team and the current league trends will show that we are one elite athlete at wide receiver away from our offense going totally over the top. I would take my chances with that offense over my chances with a defense no including Sylvester Williams.
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BP


Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 2323
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are my top 15 wide outs from this years from class:

1. Justin Hunter
2. Cordarrelle Patterson
3. Keenan Allen
4. Tavon Austin
5. Stedman Bailey
6. DeAndre Hopkins
7. Quinton Patton
8. Ryan Swope
9. Markus Wheaton
10. Robert Woods
11. Terrance Williams
12. Da'Rick Rogers
13. Kenny Stills
14. Marquise Goodwin
15. Aaron Dobson

Solid class overall. Best place to draft one this year is somewhere between the mid and late second round.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea how anyone is evaluating aaron dobson. i have only been able to see limited - like 10 second clips - of him playing.
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SFPatsFan


Joined: 31 Oct 2010
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Location: San Francisco
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
I have no idea how anyone is evaluating aaron dobson. i have only been able to see limited - like 10 second clips - of him playing.


All I need to see to trade everything for him. Seriously though he has good size at 6'3 200lbs but just based on what I saw at the Senior Bowl I don't think he is very fast and doesn't get separation. He does have good hands and good body control which helps him but I didn't see him running away from people after he caught the ball. He kind of looks like a taller Brandon Lloyd to me and I wouldn't want him before the 3rd.
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BP


Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 2323
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 15 Cornerbacks:

1. DeMarcus Millner
2. Xavier Rhodes
3. Darius Slay
4. Jamar Taylor
5. Blidi-Wreh Wilson
6. B.W. Webb
7. Dwayne Gratz
8. Logan Ryan
9. Jonathan Banks
10. Desmond Trufant
11. David Amerson
12. Robert Alford
13. Tyrann Mathieu
14. Jordan Poyer
15. Leon McFadden
HM: Brandon McGee

Very strong draft class for cornerbacks. The strength is really throughout the board but especially through rounds 2 and 3 teams will be able to find a quality corner or nickle guy.
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BP


Joined: 14 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 15 Safeties:

1. Kenny Vaccaro, FS
2. Tony Jefferson, FS/SS
3. Bacarri Rambo, FS
4. Matt Elam, SS
5. Phillip Thomas, FS
6. D.J. Swearinger, FS
7. Shamarko Thomas, SS
8. Eric Reid, FS
9. Jonathan Cyprien, SS
10. Shawn Williams, SS
11. T.J. McDonald, SS/FS
12. Earl Wolff, SS
13. Josh Evans, SS
14. JJ Wolcox, FS/SS
15. Ray Ray Armstrong, FS/SS

Another solid positional class in 2013, but without any outstanding players or true first round talents IMHO. Good mid-round gets and a lot of guys with potential to make for good value.
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BP


Joined: 14 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 15 Quarterbacks:

1. Tyler Wilson
2. Geno Smith
3. EJ Manuel
4. Tyler Bray
5. Zac Dysert
6. Matt Barkley
7. Ryan Griffin
8. Sean Renfree
9. Matt Scott
10. Ryan Nassib
11. Mike Glennon
12. Collin Klein
13. Landry Jones
14. Colby Cameron
15. Jordan Rodgers

Weak class overall but you never know what kind of gems you can unearth on day 3. There are some third stringers I wouldn't mind seeing the Patriots take a flyer on and grooming and chances are pretty good that they will if Ryan Mallett is traded away to a team such as the Jacksonville Jaguars.
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24isthelaw


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 7657
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BP wrote:
Top 15 Safeties:

1. Kenny Vaccaro, FS
2. Tony Jefferson, FS/SS
3. Bacarri Rambo, FS
4. Matt Elam, SS
5. Phillip Thomas, FS

6. D.J. Swearinger, FS
7. Shamarko Thomas, SS
8. Eric Reid, FS
9. Jonathan Cyprien, SS
10. Shawn Williams, SS
11. T.J. McDonald, SS/FS

12. Earl Wolff, SS
13. Josh Evans, SS
14. JJ Wolcox, FS/SS
15. Ray Ray Armstrong, FS/SS

Another solid positional class in 2013, but without any outstanding players or true first round talents IMHO. Good mid-round gets and a lot of guys with potential to make for good value.


Really dislike the bolded players. Vaccaro's a mixed bag - I wouldn't take him in the 1st, even though he's wicked talented, because he needs a ton of coaching imo.
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BP


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not a huge fan of Rambo, Elam or P. Thomas either but at least the potential is there more not with those guys than others, at least IMO. Swearinger has level potential to some of those names listed above but commits more penalties than necessary for any player. S. Thomas I could be underrating a bit as well as Reid but I feel like those are players who've more or less hit their ceiling and are best suited to teams that can work on their fundamentals and recognition the best. I also think a great strength and conditioning program is vital to a lot of these secondary guys. I could say the same goes for this years quarterback class too; they just need a little bit of strength and conditioning to go with the rest of their hard work.

Last edited by BP on Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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