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Michael Vick beyond the 2012 season
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think Vick is best in a system that emphasizes his physical skills. If the first read isn't there, check it down or run.

He's not meant to be a QB who reads defenses. Which is a problem even in the read-option offense because, well, he still needs to read what the defensive end and outside LB is doing.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

birdman0069 wrote:
The problem is Vick isn't a dual threat QB. Teams want him to throw the Ball. Between his Int's, batted passes and putting the ball on the ground, teams realize all they have to do is defend the 18-19 passes he can complete. In terms of pure passing QB's, Vick scares no one and there isn't a coach alive that can change that.


Vick isn't a dual threat QB? So Vick throws like Brad Smith? Come on folks

Vick has the highest passer rating in Eagles history, highest completion percentage in Eagles history, etc

Now granted he's not an elite passer, people acting like Vick throws the ball like a receiver or something, give me a break

He has a positive TD/INT ratio and is better in that department career wise than guys like Cutler, Eli, etc. Now again granted those guys aren't elite passers either, people exaggerate how much Vick struggles throwing the football especially since he has a legitimate work ethic now


The reality is if you put him in a system where he's not asked to throw the ball 40+ times a game it makes him a more effective passer because there can be higher percentage throws with the actual threat of the playaction and without making him process as much information at the LOS, etc
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
I still think Vick is best in a system that emphasizes his physical skills. If the first read isn't there, check it down or run.

He's not meant to be a QB who reads defenses. Which is a problem even in the read-option offense because, well, he still needs to read what the defensive end and outside LB is doing.


Dude HIGH SCHOOL Quarterbacks can do that. People acting like Vick can't even make a zone read, my goodness if Vick were as inept as a quarterback as you all are making him out to be he wouldn't have a single season in his career with more TDs than interceptions

You guys are seriously saying that Jeremiah Masoli, Jordan Jefferson, etc are superior in football IQ to Vick since guys even like that can make a freaking zone read play

And never mind the fact that Vick actually showed he could do this in the few times the Falcons ran it in 2006 early in the season, just on principle you should realize how absurd that is with all the college QBs who never sniffed any type of success even as a backup QB let alone starter in the league could run that
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
Phire wrote:
I still think Vick is best in a system that emphasizes his physical skills. If the first read isn't there, check it down or run.

He's not meant to be a QB who reads defenses. Which is a problem even in the read-option offense because, well, he still needs to read what the defensive end and outside LB is doing.


Dude HIGH SCHOOL Quarterbacks can do that. People acting like Vick can't even make a zone read, my goodness if Vick were as inept as a quarterback as you all are making him out to be he wouldn't have a single season in his career with more TDs than interceptions

You guys are seriously saying that Jeremiah Masoli, Jordan Jefferson, etc are superior in football IQ to Vick since guys even like that can make a freaking zone read play

And never mind the fact that Vick actually showed he could do this in the few times the Falcons ran it in 2006 early in the season, just on principle you should realize how absurd that is with all the college QBs who never sniffed any type of success even as a backup QB let alone starter in the league could run that


It's different when Joe the local high school quarterback is making reads against Matt the linebacker (the plumber's son) against a defense by Mr. Bacardi (the math teacher).

Vick will be going against NFL defenses who will do everything to mask what they're doing.

It's one thing to fool a defense with the occasional zone read or read option. It's another to defeat it when the defense knows that's what you're running.

Honestly how many fumbles will Vick have trying to run an option?
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WhackyPlague


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
BBIB wrote:
Phire wrote:
I still think Vick is best in a system that emphasizes his physical skills. If the first read isn't there, check it down or run.

He's not meant to be a QB who reads defenses. Which is a problem even in the read-option offense because, well, he still needs to read what the defensive end and outside LB is doing.


Dude HIGH SCHOOL Quarterbacks can do that. People acting like Vick can't even make a zone read, my goodness if Vick were as inept as a quarterback as you all are making him out to be he wouldn't have a single season in his career with more TDs than interceptions

You guys are seriously saying that Jeremiah Masoli, Jordan Jefferson, etc are superior in football IQ to Vick since guys even like that can make a freaking zone read play

And never mind the fact that Vick actually showed he could do this in the few times the Falcons ran it in 2006 early in the season, just on principle you should realize how absurd that is with all the college QBs who never sniffed any type of success even as a backup QB let alone starter in the league could run that


It's different when Joe the local high school quarterback is making reads against Matt the linebacker (the plumber's son) against a defense by Mr. Bacardi (the math teacher).

Vick will be going against NFL defenses who will do everything to mask what they're doing.

It's one thing to fool a defense with the occasional zone read or read option. It's another to defeat it when the defense knows that's what you're running.

Honestly how many fumbles will Vick have trying to run an option?


The record for fumbles in a season is 23. He would break it.
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UKEaglesFan


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhackyPlague wrote:
Phire wrote:
BBIB wrote:
Phire wrote:
I still think Vick is best in a system that emphasizes his physical skills. If the first read isn't there, check it down or run.

He's not meant to be a QB who reads defenses. Which is a problem even in the read-option offense because, well, he still needs to read what the defensive end and outside LB is doing.


Dude HIGH SCHOOL Quarterbacks can do that. People acting like Vick can't even make a zone read, my goodness if Vick were as inept as a quarterback as you all are making him out to be he wouldn't have a single season in his career with more TDs than interceptions

You guys are seriously saying that Jeremiah Masoli, Jordan Jefferson, etc are superior in football IQ to Vick since guys even like that can make a freaking zone read play

And never mind the fact that Vick actually showed he could do this in the few times the Falcons ran it in 2006 early in the season, just on principle you should realize how absurd that is with all the college QBs who never sniffed any type of success even as a backup QB let alone starter in the league could run that


It's different when Joe the local high school quarterback is making reads against Matt the linebacker (the plumber's son) against a defense by Mr. Bacardi (the math teacher).

Vick will be going against NFL defenses who will do everything to mask what they're doing.

It's one thing to fool a defense with the occasional zone read or read option. It's another to defeat it when the defense knows that's what you're running.

Honestly how many fumbles will Vick have trying to run an option?


The record for fumbles in a season is 23. He would break it.


Nah he'd not make it through without missing 3-4 games
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birdman0069


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
birdman0069 wrote:
The problem is Vick isn't a dual threat QB. Teams want him to throw the Ball. Between his Int's, batted passes and putting the ball on the ground, teams realize all they have to do is defend the 18-19 passes he can complete. In terms of pure passing QB's, Vick scares no one and there isn't a coach alive that can change that.


Vick isn't a dual threat QB? So Vick throws like Brad Smith? Come on folks

Vick has the highest passer rating in Eagles history, highest completion percentage in Eagles history, etc

Now granted he's not an elite passer, people acting like Vick throws the ball like a receiver or something, give me a break

He has a positive TD/INT ratio and is better in that department career wise than guys like Cutler, Eli, etc. Now again granted those guys aren't elite passers either, people exaggerate how much Vick struggles throwing the football especially since he has a legitimate work ethic now


The reality is if you put him in a system where he's not asked to throw the ball 40+ times a game it makes him a more effective passer because there can be higher percentage throws with the actual threat of the playaction and without making him process as much information at the LOS, etc


This is truely laughable. Being the best Eagles QB is the equivalent of being the best of the three teams that are tied for last place. You consistantly confuse arm strength with accuracy. You can not look at any part of Vicks game and be critical. Go back throughout this thread. You make Vick sound like a 1st ballot HoF QB which is the exact opposite of what he is.
Vick is a freak athlete with an incredibly strong arm. He would of been best served running Track in the Olympics.
He simple is not a good QB in any system that requires him reading the Defence. Through his career he has made poor decessions time and time again. He's been playing organized football for over 20 years and still has no clue how to hold the ball or slide for that matter. He locks onto receivers and forces ill advised throws. He hasn't played back to back games in his career that he hasn't had at least one pass batted down. His stats go down in big games. He turns the ball over on the average of once a game. That's not going change because he throws the ball 10-12 less times a game. I truely don't care how you spin it, he can't stay healthy. That's not even debatable yet you insist on twisting the facts to support your opinion. When a player comes out and states, "I need to find a way to stay healthy for an entire season", that's and admission you think you have a health problem. Vick has never developed from his days in college. Yes, he's worked hard. He has never developed from the freak athlete that came into this league. He has survived on his athletic ability and now, by your own admission, his athletic ability is dwindling. How many more teams does Vick have to fail with before you will be willing to admit he isn't a very good QB?
If Vick starts next season and wins 6 games I promise to revisit this thread and tell you, you are smarter then everyone and Vick belongs in the HoF. That's how sure I am, from watching how he progressed since he came into the league, that Vick will never succeed in this league again.
What are you willing to do when Vick doesn't even get a chance to start next season?
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is truely laughable. Being the best Eagles QB is the equivalent of being the best of the three teams that are tied for last place. You consistantly confuse arm strength with accuracy.


So "technically" (Not that I believe he is better) the fact he has better Comp%, Passer Rating numbers then Jaws and Don it should be discarded? Have to disagree there bird. I think the point people are missing or assuming won't change are the TO's. We have been for years asking AR to stop passing the ball 40+ times a game and go to a more ball controlled/run heavy offense with McNabb and Vick not just every god forsaken back up!! I agree with everyone here that I have my doubts Vick can stay healthy for an entire season if asked to run say twice as much as last season. Especially if the idiot refuses to learn how to slide feet first which If I was Chip Kelly would be a stipulation he has to meet or he is cut outright for stupidity. 5 year old kids learn how to slide in baseball surely a athlete of his skills could as well. However with that said it is asinine to assume if Vick was to cut his pass attempts in half say to around 20-25 a gm, his Turn over rate would be astronomical. That too WILL drop. Isn't that what everyone is in a uproar about with his play, TO's?? Fact is whether people like to admit it or not Mike Vick is a better overall QB then Nick Foles and it isn't remotely close. Is he younger and the the long term future Qb of the eagles of course not. If he stays just maybe Kelly doesn't believe Foles is either. All of this is a moot point unless Vick cuts his salary in 1/2 (minimum). Otherwise he is and will be cut!
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Dr. Philly


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So to summarize this thread in a whole.
Most agree with Vick getting cut
BBIB disagrees
People argue about Vick's quality
Nabbs is Devil's advocate and old
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Philly wrote:
So to summarize this thread in a whole.
Most agree with Vick getting cut
BBIB disagrees
People argue about Vick's quality
Nabbs is Devil's advocate and old


Applause Laughing Applause
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birdman0069


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
Quote:
This is truely laughable. Being the best Eagles QB is the equivalent of being the best of the three teams that are tied for last place. You consistantly confuse arm strength with accuracy.


So "technically" (Not that I believe he is better) the fact he has better Comp%, Passer Rating numbers then Jaws and Don it should be discarded? Have to disagree there bird. I think the point people are missing or assuming won't change are the TO's. We have been for years asking AR to stop passing the ball 40+ times a game and go to a more ball controlled/run heavy offense with McNabb and Vick not just every god forsaken back up!! I agree with everyone here that I have my doubts Vick can stay healthy for an entire season if asked to run say twice as much as last season. Especially if the idiot refuses to learn how to slide feet first which If I was Chip Kelly would be a stipulation he has to meet or he is cut outright for stupidity. 5 year old kids learn how to slide in baseball surely a athlete of his skills could as well. However with that said it is asinine to assume if Vick was to cut his pass attempts in half say to around 20-25 a gm, his Turn over rate would be astronomical. That too WILL drop. Isn't that what everyone is in a uproar about with his play, TO's?? Fact is whether people like to admit it or not Mike Vick is a better overall QB then Nick Foles and it isn't remotely close. Is he younger and the the long term future Qb of the eagles of course not. If he stays just maybe Kelly doesn't believe Foles is either. All of this is a moot point unless Vick cuts his salary in 1/2 (minimum). Otherwise he is and will be cut!


The point I guess I failed to make clearly enough is, Vick is still going to touch the ball 50-55 times a game. Even if you reduce the number of pass attempts, you are still asking Vick to carry the ball. He fumbles just as often as he throws Int's. He still gets passes batted at the line of scrimmage. He still makes bad decisions.
I wouldn't let Vick anywhere near the starting line up for my football team.
You say he's better then Foles and it's not close. Really. Vick was awful, period. Foles handles the ball better. Vick will continue to get his passes knocked. Is that a major concern with Foles.
The one thing everyone want to hang their hat on is limiting the number of attempts. Vick has to throw the ball that many times just to get the amount of completions he has. Limit his attempts to 20-25 a game and he's still going to throw an Int, fumble the ball and get a couple passes knocked down at the line. Now he's only completing 12/20, 17/25. How many games are you going to win like that? Not many. This team isn't well equipt enough to run the ball like Washington, San Fran or Seattle.
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Dr. Philly


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
Dr. Philly wrote:
So to summarize this thread in a whole.
Most agree with Vick getting cut
BBIB disagrees
People argue about Vick's quality
Nabbs is Devil's advocate and old


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Why thank you Nabbs
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

birdman0069 wrote:
The point I guess I failed to make clearly enough is, Vick is still going to touch the ball 50-55 times a game. Even if you reduce the number of pass attempts, you are still asking Vick to carry the ball. He fumbles just as often as he throws Limit his attempts to 20-25 a game and he's still going to throw an Int, fumble the ball and get a couple passes knocked down at the line. Now he's only completing 12/20, 17/25. How many games are you going to win like that? Not many. This team isn't well equipt enough to run the ball like Washington, San Fran or Seattle.


Couple things. Surely you don't think Kelly is going to ask Vick or any incoming QB worth a spit to Run the ball more then 8-10 times a game do you? So these 55 touches you are refering to 30 or more are hand offs or run plays by Vick. Why exactly can Kap, RGIII, and Wilson get away with not throwing the ball 30+ times a game but Vick can not? You say we are not equipped enough to run the ball like them and I ask why? You telling me a Healthy Oline not counting any potential FA/draft pick acquired along with Shady, Brown and Polk can't run the rock? Seriously? Now if you are saying we don't have the Defense to play smash mouth ,ball controlled football I 100% agree! But if Tweedle dee and Tweedle dumb can baby RGIII in Washington and mold a offense around him by utilizing the run game and numerous pistol (QB threat to run) type system. Surely the same can be done with Vick with Kelly "IF" that is even the direction he wants to go in which I have my doubts. You take any one of those three mentioned above and put them in a tradition Andy Reid offense with Marty the Moron calling plays and not one has the success they saw last season. Not one. Moments of brilliance yes, out and out success from the jump hardly. The different between those HC and AR is none tried to fit a square peg into a round whole and molded their playcalling to the QB strengths. Something "IF" Vick was kept I have no doubt Kelly would attempt to do. If anything I have more respect for Vick now given the absolute BEATING he took last year while still getting up play after play then anytime before. Does that mean I want him to be the QB of the Eagles moving forward, not necessarily. Will I like others throw a hissy fit if he was the QB a vastly reduced salary, Not one bit.
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