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RamPackFan


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
El ramster wrote:
Yeah.. Been hearing good things about Tanns Oline.
No one is Blind to Sam's struggle. But people seem to
forget that he is about to play a top 10 defense
For a 3rd straight week. Sam feasted on a weak
Washington defense. Sam flat out won us that game.
Defense Bent waaaaaaaay back and he carried us back.
To think he's a game.manager is nuts. We are 10 seconds
away from being 4-1. Everyone wants the numbers. I have
No doubt that they will come. He's progressing just fine..
last year was a sophmore slump. Just look at Cam.

Sam also made plays on Thursday when he was needed.
He took some licks and didn't look rattled.


Sure, we are 3-2.......

With a +2 point differential, and averaging less than 20 points per game.(19.2)

That average is only that high because of Greg the Leg's ability to hit a FG from Nebraska, and a defense that is 2nd in the league in INTs.

We are 28th in yards per play, 28th in yards per game, and 28th in red zone offense. I suppose you still believe that Bradford deserves credit for our winning record? Rolling Eyes


I'm not sold at all on Bradford. Thanks for helping me shed some light on it. I really hope this is Bradfords year to either improve or hit the road. Elite QB's arent still stuck at a below 80 QB rating. He can't avoid pressure and has a hard time feeling it. Not very accurate under pressure, holds on too the ball too long. Very immobile and never avoids pressure or makes many plays on the run, fails in the red zone. Face it, get off the Bradford train and let's go get a QB that will compliment our D!
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
What you're listening to isn't the educated opinions of "all the people around the league." What you are actually hearing is the media's interpretations and assertions, which are far from trustworthy.

You're basically saying Bradford is a good QB because you heard other people say so. Mostly, if not entirely, those people consist of media personalities. I don't care if they used to be coaches, they are members of the media now.
Thats Actually not who I have been talking about at all. Im talking about people like Mike Shannahan, one guy who I trust his competency on quarterbacks more than anyone else in this league, and he has done nothing but praise Sam and shown complete envy that he doesnt have him.

And to completely dismiss former coaches and players because they are now "the media" is also a bit absurd. Just because they are being paid for their opinion now means it isnt credible? Thats exactly the opposite reason they are being paid, its because they ARE credible sources of information and opinion.

Quote:
In contrast to "throwing out a red herring", relating Sam's play (and subsequent stats) to other Quarterbacks around the league is an attempt to shed light on just where he stands in this league, relative to his competition. I compared him to some QBs that have things in common with Bradford:
You threw out stats that just help your case? What about His great numbers on 3rd downs, on late game situations? You know those things that show he absolutely has the "Mental Fortitude" to be great in this league.

Quote:
Palmer:Has very few weapons, lacks established familiarity with current offensive scheme.
Is that a joke? Darren McFadden, Danarius Moore, & DHB are sooo much better than anything we have ever thrown out there with Sam.

Quote:
Tannehill:Has limited weapons,not familiar with NFL offense. (Although his case is helped because of coaching overlap)
Oh you mean that same offense with the same Coordinator that he had in college, yea Im sure its like learning Latin for him

Quote:
Kolb:Limited experience as a starter, terrible offensive line play.
You mean the guy who has what many believe to be the Best WR in the entire NFL? Yea I think that might make up for the 19 more yards he has than Sam. Even after him Andre Roberts, Early Doucet & Michael Floyd are all better WRs than pretty much anyone we can throw out there.

Quote:
In 2010, Bradford's best year to date, he averaged under 6 yards per pass attempt. That's pathetic.
That was also the offense. But yea lets go with revisionist's history, thats fine too.

Quote:
In 2011, Bradford failed to complete even 55% of his passes, and threw no more than 1 touchdown in any game.
Again, look at the system, brand new, completely wrong for what we had out there. A guy who was getting hit on nearly half his throws, and then played the 2nd half of his games on a Bad ankle when we now know he shouldnt have been playing

Quote:
In 2012, Bradford played a strong game against a terrible, and injury depleted Redskins defense. His stats outside of that game:

58/111 (52%), 712 yards, 3 touchdowns vs. 4 interceptions.

That is poor play, and it is statistically consistent with his career norms.
Its always easy to take out someones best game and then paint a completely different picture. Especially when you dont acknowledge the fact that the other 4 games have been against Some of the NFLs best defenses this season.

Also when comparing him to the others you forget to point out that the rams have been running a possession/field position game while the other teams have been behind and throwing a ton to keep up. How about in those games other than the WAS game we are averaging about 4 drops per game? Those arent questionable ones of who made the wrong read, those are actual dropped balls that should have been caught. Had even half of those been caught (while with good weapons they all would be) his Comp% jumps to 60%.

Im not sure why you seem to think everyone else is OK with the way he is playing, He does need to be better for our team to be better, but that also involves his Weapons and O-Line being better. He has to get time to throw it, and if they arent open he cant throw it, and when he does they have to catch it. Not only right now, but his entire career thus far (which is only 37 games old by the way) he hasnt really had any of that.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
His game needs improvement.


Is there anyone arguing that it doesn't? If you wonder why people are jumping on him, read the title of the thread.
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Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Hoj398


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Hoj398


Joined: 19 Jan 2011
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Location: Detroit, Mi
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.


oh with brandon gibson, steve smith, amendola ( not healthy ) kendricks ( dropping balls) brian quick and chris givens as our WR core? with a makeshift o-line we wouldnt win more than 8 games
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jrry32


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Posts: 46877
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.


oh with brandon gibson, steve smith, amendola ( not healthy ) kendricks ( dropping balls) brian quick and chris givens as our WR core? with a makeshift o-line we wouldnt win more than 8 games


We've got 3 wins right now. Tom Brady could most definitely put up enough points to win 11 to 13 games with our defense.

Sam isn't playing as badly as some claim but he's not playing like an elite QB. With Brady at the helm, our offense could average 24ish PPG and that would be more than enough to be a very good team.

Not to say that I'm laying this at the feet of Sam, it's more that Brady is THAT good of a player.
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kgarrett12486 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
kgarrett12486 wrote:
Using Tannehill's passing yardage stats as an arguement doesn't really fly to me. He had one monster game, which inflated the overall number. Every other game he's been mediocre at best...

Not to mention that his offensive line is much better than what we have been able to put out there...


Bradford, similarly, had one game with a large amount of passing yards this year. That's why the comparison works, not why it doesn't.

I'm not saying those QBs are more talented than Sammy, just that they are producing at a similar rate. Our guy needs to improve, period.


Fair enough on the comparison, although I was trying to say using passing yardage as whole isn't a great way to determine value...

Like I said though, Tannehill has a much better O-Line in front of him. You can't disregard this as a factor for production, as Sam more often than not doesn't have adequate protection to scan the field. The coaching staff sees this and has adjusted the offense to maximize what can be done...

There are way too many of these types of variables with this team that directly impact Sam's production level...

I agree with the notion that Sam's production has to increase, but I think right now and over the recent past there have been way to many negative variables that interfere with how he can be graded/judged....

I need to see him having at least a good amount of what he should have around him (You'll almost never have it all at once in the NFL) first. Which has been almost non-existent to this point in his career...


I agree, passing yardage is not a great indicator of success. Sounds like we agree on most the rest.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
What you're listening to isn't the educated opinions of "all the people around the league." What you are actually hearing is the media's interpretations and assertions, which are far from trustworthy.

You're basically saying Bradford is a good QB because you heard other people say so. Mostly, if not entirely, those people consist of media personalities. I don't care if they used to be coaches, they are members of the media now.
Thats Actually not who I have been talking about at all. Im talking about people like Mike Shannahan, one guy who I trust his competency on quarterbacks more than anyone else in this league, and he has done nothing but praise Sam and shown complete envy that he doesnt have him.

And to completely dismiss former coaches and players because they are now "the media" is also a bit absurd. Just because they are being paid for their opinion now means it isnt credible? Thats exactly the opposite reason they are being paid, its because they ARE credible sources of information and opinion.

Quote:
In contrast to "throwing out a red herring", relating Sam's play (and subsequent stats) to other Quarterbacks around the league is an attempt to shed light on just where he stands in this league, relative to his competition. I compared him to some QBs that have things in common with Bradford:
You threw out stats that just help your case? What about His great numbers on 3rd downs, on late game situations? You know those things that show he absolutely has the "Mental Fortitude" to be great in this league.

Quote:
Palmer:Has very few weapons, lacks established familiarity with current offensive scheme.
Is that a joke? Darren McFadden, Danarius Moore, & DHB are sooo much better than anything we have ever thrown out there with Sam.

Quote:
Tannehill:Has limited weapons,[b]not familiar with NFL offense. (Although his case is helped because of coaching overlap)
Oh you mean that same offense with the same Coordinator that he had in college, yea Im sure its like learning Latin for him[/b]

Quote:
Kolb:Limited experience as a starter, terrible offensive line play.
You mean the guy who has what many believe to be the Best WR in the entire NFL? Yea I think that might make up for the 19 more yards he has than Sam. Even after him Andre Roberts, Early Doucet & Michael Floyd are all better WRs than pretty much anyone we can throw out there.

Quote:
In 2010, Bradford's best year to date, he averaged under 6 yards per pass attempt. That's pathetic.
That was also the offense. But yea lets go with revisionist's history, thats fine too.

Quote:
In 2011, Bradford failed to complete even 55% of his passes, and threw no more than 1 touchdown in any game.
Again, look at the system, brand new, completely wrong for what we had out there. A guy who was getting hit on nearly half his throws, and then played the 2nd half of his games on a Bad ankle when we now know he shouldnt have been playing

Quote:
In 2012, Bradford played a strong game against a terrible, and injury depleted Redskins defense. His stats outside of that game:

58/111 (52%), 712 yards, 3 touchdowns vs. 4 interceptions.

That is poor play, and it is statistically consistent with his career norms.
Its always easy to take out someones best game and then paint a completely different picture. Especially when you dont acknowledge the fact that the other 4 games have been against Some of the NFLs best defenses this season.

Also when comparing him to the others you forget to point out that the rams have been running a possession/field position game while the other teams have been behind and throwing a ton to keep up. How about in those games other than the WAS game we are averaging about 4 drops per game? Those arent questionable ones of who made the wrong read, those are actual dropped balls that should have been caught. Had even half of those been caught (while with good weapons they all would be) his Comp% jumps to 60%.

Im not sure why you seem to think everyone else is OK with the way he is playing, He does need to be better for our team to be better, but that also involves his Weapons and O-Line being better. He has to get time to throw it, and if they arent open he cant throw it, and when he does they have to catch it. Not only right now, but his entire career thus far (which is only 37 games old by the way) he hasnt really had any of that.


The bolded part....really? I acknowledged that coaching overlap helps his curve (theoretically) but lets not pretend they are not trying to teach him new concepts.

I am well aware that the line and WRs on this team have stunk, but independent of those issues I see areas where Bradford must improve:

1 Progress through reads quicker/pre-snap diagnosis
2)Move around in the pocket
3)Avoid staring down WRs more consistently
4)Improve in the Red Zone (a complex issue)

Those things need to happen if he is ever going to be an upper mid to high tier QB in this league. I'm sure weapons will help, and of course blocking will, but some of this is on him too.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
His game needs improvement.


Is there anyone arguing that it doesn't? If you wonder why people are jumping on him, read the title of the thread.


It was a pretty strong opening statement no doubt, bolder than I would have been.

I'm just remaining objective on our QB situation. I didn't like Bradford coming out of college, and although I do like him more now, I'm still wanting significant improvement and sooner than later.
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Hoj398


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.


oh with brandon gibson, steve smith, amendola ( not healthy ) kendricks ( dropping balls) brian quick and chris givens as our WR core? with a makeshift o-line we wouldnt win more than 8 games


We've got 3 wins right now. Tom Brady could most definitely put up enough points to win 11 to 13 games with our defense.

Sam isn't playing as badly as some claim but he's not playing like an elite QB. With Brady at the helm, our offense could average 24ish PPG and that would be more than enough to be a very good team.

Not to say that I'm laying this at the feet of Sam, it's more that Brady is THAT good of a player.


im not knocking brady one bit, but brady has had, welker,lloyd, moss, branch, hernandez, and gronkowski, and each and every player i have named is light years better than anyone bradford has played with, (excluding amendola)
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rAmFan39


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.


oh with brandon gibson, steve smith, amendola ( not healthy ) kendricks ( dropping balls) brian quick and chris givens as our WR core? with a makeshift o-line we wouldnt win more than 8 games


We've got 3 wins right now. Tom Brady could most definitely

put up enough points to win 11 to 13 games with our defense.

Sam isn't playing as badly as some claim but he's not playing like an elite QB. With Brady at the helm, our offense could average 24ish PPG and that would be more than enough to be a very good team.

Not to say that I'm laying this at the feet of Sam, it's more that Brady is THAT good of a player.


im not knocking brady one bit, but brady has had, welker,lloyd, moss, branch, hernandez, and gronkowski, and each and every player i have named is light years better than anyone bradford has played with, (excluding amendola)


Your arugment is a poor one. We would def. be able to win 10-12 games with brady or rogers. At the same time I am not a Sam hater and really hope he steps up and gets things rolling. I really like sam and dont want him to fail.
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Hoj398


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rAmFan39 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.


oh with brandon gibson, steve smith, amendola ( not healthy ) kendricks ( dropping balls) brian quick and chris givens as our WR core? with a makeshift o-line we wouldnt win more than 8 games


We've got 3 wins right now. Tom Brady could most definitely

put up enough points to win 11 to 13 games with our defense.

Sam isn't playing as badly as some claim but he's not playing like an elite QB. With Brady at the helm, our offense could average 24ish PPG and that would be more than enough to be a very good team.

Not to say that I'm laying this at the feet of Sam, it's more that Brady is THAT good of a player.


im not knocking brady one bit, but brady has had, welker,lloyd, moss, branch, hernandez, and gronkowski, and each and every player i have named is light years better than anyone bradford has played with, (excluding amendola)


Your arugment is a poor one. We would def. be able to win 10-12 games with brady or rogers. At the same time I am not a Sam hater and really hope he steps up and gets things rolling. I really like sam and dont want him to fail.


my argument is poor why? cause im stating my opinion that no qb would be elite behind our makeshift o-line and our average WR'S ( once again excluding Amendola )?
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
1 Progress through reads quicker/pre-snap diagnosis
2)Move around in the pocket
3)Avoid staring down WRs more consistently
4)Improve in the Red Zone (a complex issue)]


Agree with all but the bold. He's actually really improved in that aspect. He's done a nice job of looking off coverage this year to open things up.

I said this on another board:
jrry32 wrote:
Basically, these are things I hope to see from Sam as he improves this year:
#1 - Sam needs to keep moving while in the pocket
Explanation: Some may wonder why he needs to do this on plays where there's no pressure and my response is watch Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. These two are no more athletic than Sam and yet are two of the best in the league at avoiding pressure and manipulating the pocket...why? They keep moving. Watch Brady specifically. He keeps light on his feet and gradually scoots up in the pocket as the play develops. When he feels pressure, he either will step up or side step to evade the pressure but the theme is that Brady doesn't stop moving. He doesn't stand there like a statue. If there's not any immediate pressure, as I said earlier, he slowly slides up in the pocket. Doing this helps your OTs out, gives the QB more passing lanes and tends to give him more escape options if he is pressured. Plus it makes it easier for the QB to reset or step into his throw when he's ready. Sam gets too flat footed in the pocket at times and too immobile. I'd like to see that improve. It'll definitely help Sam out though if our interior OL can reduce push as it makes it more difficult for him to trust them and move up in the pocket.

#2 - Going through his progressions faster
Explanation: I think we've all seen this at one time or another. Sam is a tad slow through his progressions. It's understand with this being another new scheme. I think this will improve with time, experience and Sam being more relaxed in the offense. But at times, Sam will focus on 1 WR for too long on a given play and that WR will end up not being open which will cause Sam to miss an open WR/TE/HB in the middle of the field. Getting through his progressions faster will help him get the ball out quicker and find open targets quicker.

#3 - Being more comfortable scrambling and running with the football
Explanation: Sam isn't RGIII and I don't want him to try to be RGIII but there are times when he passes up on perfectly good running lanes when he should just take the sure thing. He's definitely getting better at recognizing it. I think we've seen him improve every week in this aspect of his game. Still, Sam is sneaky athletic and can pick up 10 to 15 yards with a seam. I'd like to see him take more advantage of this. It can stress a defense and help out our OL as well as help us extend drives. Just don't get yourself knocked out of the game being greedy.

#4 - Opening up bigger holes for our running game
Just kidding guys. Wink

Anyways, those 3 things I'd say are the 3 things I'd like to see him improve on the most. All 3 will come with comfort in the offense, experience and time. The moving in the pocket is the most important thing imo because it can definitely make a big difference. However, in order for that to be possible, we need to minimize push on the interior. That may not happen until Scott Wells returns from injury and Turner can move into the LG spot. I will definitely give Sam props in that he gets better every week and it seems like he improves in the aspects that we touch on. You can tell he's working on his game and that Schotty and Cignetti are doing wonders for the kid. I think it's only a matter of time until he's playing at a high level for us.

What do you guys want to see improvement in?

_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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stlblackshirt


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoj398 wrote:
rAmFan39 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Hoj398 wrote:
i want to ask all the Bradford haters a question? without replacing anyone on our O-LINE or WR replace bradford with the likes of Matt ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Phillp Rivers. this team wouldnt be more than a 8 win team and thats with a "elite" qb at the helm. Sam has no supporting cast at all besides amendola and sjax.


The current team? Yea, they definitely would be.


oh with brandon gibson, steve smith, amendola ( not healthy ) kendricks ( dropping balls) brian quick and chris givens as our WR core? with a makeshift o-line we wouldnt win more than 8 games


We've got 3 wins right now. Tom Brady could most definitely

put up enough points to win 11 to 13 games with our defense.

Sam isn't playing as badly as some claim but he's not playing like an elite QB. With Brady at the helm, our offense could average 24ish PPG and that would be more than enough to be a very good team.

Not to say that I'm laying this at the feet of Sam, it's more that Brady is THAT good of a player.


im not knocking brady one bit, but brady has had, welker,lloyd, moss, branch, hernandez, and gronkowski, and each and every player i have named is light years better than anyone bradford has played with, (excluding amendola)


Your arugment is a poor one. We would def. be able to win 10-12 games with brady or rogers. At the same time I am not a Sam hater and really hope he steps up and gets things rolling. I really like sam and dont want him to fail.


my argument is poor why? cause im stating my opinion that no qb would be elite behind our makeshift o-line and our average WR'S ( once again excluding Amendola )?


To be fair, none of those QB's you listed are in their 3rd year on their 3rd offensive coordinator in as many years. Somehow, that has to have an effect.
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