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Why do Bears fans hate Lovie Smith?
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:

64-12 after Sunday's win...

Anyone who feels Lovie isn't a great HC isn't very smart...if we had an offence in a number of other years we would have made it to the playoffs many more times...he is one of the best defensive minds in the NFL because he has created a simple D that most players fit which can dominate when it has the right pieces.


This is what I mean...why is the offense NONE of his responsibility??

In NY, Rex Ryan answers questions about the Jet offense all the time, and the whole Sanchez/Tebow thing. In that case for some reason everyone thinks Ryan is the one who got Tebow, no one blames the GM, Sanchez is having problems, they fired the OC but it barely made the news, it was still on Ryan. Why is Lovie treated like he did all he could while just everyone around him has failed?

Then take an awesome coach like Harbaugh, now Im not trying to say Lovie is Harbaugh as he is the best in the league but he took what was considered a weak roster and has made the 49ers a power house.

Lovie is OK....thats it. Lovie is great in teaching the D to get turnovers, I will give you that


I’ve had this conversation before and it comes down to skill’s…why would Lovie try and tell an offensive coordinator how to run his offence? Lovie is a defensive coach…always has been…now I can accept that Lovie hasn’t always hired the right OCs but once you hire that guy you can’t then walk all over him by saying “yeah I hired you as an OC but I don’t trust you enough so I’m going to decide the direction of the offence even tho I know next to nothing about offensive coaching or gameplanning”…that doesn’t make any sense…it’s the same for a guy like Mike McCarthy…there is no way he tells Dom Capers what to do on defence…why would he? He is an offensive HC who’s skills aren’t on the defensive side of the ball…it wouldn’t make any sense for him to try and impose his ideas on the D…

As for Rex Ryan he brings the media attention on himself by going out of his way to give the press something to write about which is why he gets all the attention in NY…and Harbaugh is clearly had a positive effect on the 49ers but they were a team on the rise after getting many high picks because they sucked for so long… Trent Baalke the GM is the real mastermind behind there revival…

Lovie is far better than just ok…there aren’t 8 coaches in the NFL I would take over him.
The HEAD Coach is just that. He makes the major decisions about what kind of team he wants to field. That means he makes decisions affecting EVERY area: offense, defense and special teams. None of the co-ordinators act without consultation with the Head coach; none would ignore his input. HE has to make sure that all these teams are on the same page.

If the game plan is to keep the other team's offense off the field then the OC has to arrange his game plan around that strategy. If the plan is to let the other team's offense be on the field because it is turnover prone then that has to be accommodated. Ditka used to takeover play calling if he did not like what he was seeing.

Head coaches who do not understand offense are at a disadvantage to those who do.

We still have to see if Smith is anything other than a moderately good HC and will know by the end of the year. So far he is not as good as the Bears should have. But I still have an open mind about his retention.


I've went over this with you before Al...consultation yes...but Lovie does not make tell Tice or any other OC what to do because that isn't where his skills lie...the same as a offensive HC doesn't tell his DC what to do...if they did it would show a clear mistrust in that coaches ability and no coordinator would work under those conditions as they would be constantly undermined…that’s just the way it is IMO.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:

64-12 after Sunday's win...

Anyone who feels Lovie isn't a great HC isn't very smart...if we had an offence in a number of other years we would have made it to the playoffs many more times...he is one of the best defensive minds in the NFL because he has created a simple D that most players fit which can dominate when it has the right pieces.


This is what I mean...why is the offense NONE of his responsibility??

In NY, Rex Ryan answers questions about the Jet offense all the time, and the whole Sanchez/Tebow thing. In that case for some reason everyone thinks Ryan is the one who got Tebow, no one blames the GM, Sanchez is having problems, they fired the OC but it barely made the news, it was still on Ryan. Why is Lovie treated like he did all he could while just everyone around him has failed?

Then take an awesome coach like Harbaugh, now Im not trying to say Lovie is Harbaugh as he is the best in the league but he took what was considered a weak roster and has made the 49ers a power house.

Lovie is OK....thats it. Lovie is great in teaching the D to get turnovers, I will give you that


I’ve had this conversation before and it comes down to skill’s…why would Lovie try and tell an offensive coordinator how to run his offence? Lovie is a defensive coach…always has been…now I can accept that Lovie hasn’t always hired the right OCs but once you hire that guy you can’t then walk all over him by saying “yeah I hired you as an OC but I don’t trust you enough so I’m going to decide the direction of the offence even tho I know next to nothing about offensive coaching or gameplanning”…that doesn’t make any sense…it’s the same for a guy like Mike McCarthy…there is no way he tells Dom Capers what to do on defence…why would he? He is an offensive HC who’s skills aren’t on the defensive side of the ball…it wouldn’t make any sense for him to try and impose his ideas on the D…

As for Rex Ryan he brings the media attention on himself by going out of his way to give the press something to write about which is why he gets all the attention in NY…and Harbaugh is clearly had a positive effect on the 49ers but they were a team on the rise after getting many high picks because they sucked for so long… Trent Baalke the GM is the real mastermind behind there revival…

Lovie is far better than just ok…there aren’t 8 coaches in the NFL I would take over him.
The HEAD Coach is just that. He makes the major decisions about what kind of team he wants to field. That means he makes decisions affecting EVERY area: offense, defense and special teams. None of the co-ordinators act without consultation with the Head coach; none would ignore his input. HE has to make sure that all these teams are on the same page.

If the game plan is to keep the other team's offense off the field then the OC has to arrange his game plan around that strategy. If the plan is to let the other team's offense be on the field because it is turnover prone then that has to be accommodated. Ditka used to takeover play calling if he did not like what he was seeing.

Head coaches who do not understand offense are at a disadvantage to those who do.

We still have to see if Smith is anything other than a moderately good HC and will know by the end of the year. So far he is not as good as the Bears should have. But I still have an open mind about his retention.


I've went over this with you before Al...consultation yes...but Lovie does not make tell Tice or any other OC what to do because that isn't where his skills lie...the same as a offensive HC doesn't tell his DC what to do...if they did it would show a clear mistrust in that coaches ability and no coordinator would work under those conditions as they would be constantly undermined…that’s just the way it is IMO.
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?
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Badger75


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 32 NFL teams and probably 32 different organizational styles. But the GM and HC better be on the same page. Any good coach will wait for an openning with a cooperative GM. Winning coaches don't get tangled up with dysfunctional organizations.

In recent years it seemed that HH was pursuing one agenda while the coaches were making do. This may be the most common problem in sports.

HC Smith seems to be on the same page with the GM. Successful teams often have former HC's as coordinators. Marinelli and Tice seem to fit that too.

If injuries don't set in, the Bears should have an unusually good year. Cool
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Uncle Buck


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bears fans don't like Lovie Smith because there is only one guy who's worthy of coaching 'da Bears:























Ditka

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IronMike84


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditka is a god in Chicago. I love Ditka to no end. But Ditka was a better motivator and personality than he was a football mind.
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MonserinNC


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.


I don’t think anyone has said that…there is no doubt that Lovie has made mistakes when it comes to hiring coaches…

My point is simply that once Lovie has hired the guy (good or bad) he has to let him do his job or it’s a clear showing that he has no faith in the guy he just hired…he can’t micro manage a guy who he feels can do the job…especially on the offensive side of the ball where he doesn’t have the expertise to interfere in a good way.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.


I don’t think anyone has said that…there is no doubt that Lovie has made mistakes when it comes to hiring coaches…

My point is simply that once Lovie has hired the guy (good or bad) he has to let him do his job or it’s a clear showing that he has no faith in the guy he just hired…he can’t micro manage a guy who he feels can do the job…especially on the offensive side of the ball where he doesn’t have the expertise to interfere in a good way.
McCarthy is not the OC of the Packers but he is the one who calls the plays. It does not undermine his coordinator. Now, I certainly don't want Smith to take over calling all the plays but if there was a direction he demanded the play calling go, Tice would not feel emasculated by going there. No one is claiming Tice is or should be a mere puppet but he does have a boss.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.


I don’t think anyone has said that…there is no doubt that Lovie has made mistakes when it comes to hiring coaches…

My point is simply that once Lovie has hired the guy (good or bad) he has to let him do his job or it’s a clear showing that he has no faith in the guy he just hired…he can’t micro manage a guy who he feels can do the job…especially on the offensive side of the ball where he doesn’t have the expertise to interfere in a good way.
McCarthy is not the OC of the Packers but he is the one who calls the plays. It does not undermine his coordinator. Now, I certainly don't want Smith to take over calling all the plays but if there was a direction he demanded the play calling go, Tice would not feel emasculated by going there. No one is claiming Tice is or should be a mere puppet but he does have a boss.


That's because McCarthy is the best guy for the job...Lovie isn't the best guy to call offensive plays.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.


I don’t think anyone has said that…there is no doubt that Lovie has made mistakes when it comes to hiring coaches…

My point is simply that once Lovie has hired the guy (good or bad) he has to let him do his job or it’s a clear showing that he has no faith in the guy he just hired…he can’t micro manage a guy who he feels can do the job…especially on the offensive side of the ball where he doesn’t have the expertise to interfere in a good way.
McCarthy is not the OC of the Packers but he is the one who calls the plays. It does not undermine his coordinator. Now, I certainly don't want Smith to take over calling all the plays but if there was a direction he demanded the play calling go, Tice would not feel emasculated by going there. No one is claiming Tice is or should be a mere puppet but he does have a boss.


That's because McCarthy is the best guy for the job...Lovie isn't the best guy to call offensive plays.
Surely you are not going to claim that I, of all people, believe he is. However, he is the Coach and, if he wanted to do so, he has every right to do so. And it, in no way, undermines his subordinate. That is why he is called a subordinate.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't understand what the argument here is anymore. Lovie could call the plays if he wanted to but he doesn't because he's not very good at it and Tice is better at it. I think you both agree on that, even though you're trying your best not to.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.


I don’t think anyone has said that…there is no doubt that Lovie has made mistakes when it comes to hiring coaches…

My point is simply that once Lovie has hired the guy (good or bad) he has to let him do his job or it’s a clear showing that he has no faith in the guy he just hired…he can’t micro manage a guy who he feels can do the job…especially on the offensive side of the ball where he doesn’t have the expertise to interfere in a good way.
McCarthy is not the OC of the Packers but he is the one who calls the plays. It does not undermine his coordinator. Now, I certainly don't want Smith to take over calling all the plays but if there was a direction he demanded the play calling go, Tice would not feel emasculated by going there. No one is claiming Tice is or should be a mere puppet but he does have a boss.


That's because McCarthy is the best guy for the job...Lovie isn't the best guy to call offensive plays.
Surely you are not going to claim that I, of all people, believe he is. However, he is the Coach and, if he wanted to do so, he has every right to do so. And it, in no way, undermines his subordinate. That is why he is called a subordinate.


Obviously…but my point is he wouldn’t do that because he has no expertise to do so…hence the reason he hires a guy he has faith in and lets him run the show...coaching is as much about having the ability to hand things off to the right people…no HC can run a franchise on his own.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.
Keep in mind his first 2 OCs were not his hires. In truth he's hired 2 DCs and 2 OCs.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
MonserinNC wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Some how you have this idea that these unit coaches are independent actors. They are not, they are there to do what the HC wants NOT what they want. Now it is true that the HC is not going to be constantly interfering but the idea that they cannot or would not tell his subordinates what he wants done on occasion is just unrealistic. And I have detailed how Ditka, at times, took over Ed Hughes' job and called plays.

Coordinators work FOR the HC. (Except in unusual circumstances as was the case with Buddy Ryan and The Coach.)


I never said they were…I said that coordinators consult with the HC…

Consulting with the HC is something that obviously needs to be done…but if a HC doesn’t have the relevant skills to plan and implement a gameplan then why would he step on the toes of someone he hired in the first place who he feels does have the skills to plan & implement one?


Al totally gets what Im saying, even if it isnt his expertise, Lovie still is the guy that hired him and in theory its his job on the line. The Bears have allowed Lovie to fire like 4 different OC's which is unusual for the NFL. I just dont see how you guys place zero blame on Lovie for coaching or personnel mistakes...Im not sure how else to explain it....there is no way that the GM and all the coordinators were doing a bad job and Lovie was the only one doing a good job.


I don’t think anyone has said that…there is no doubt that Lovie has made mistakes when it comes to hiring coaches…

My point is simply that once Lovie has hired the guy (good or bad) he has to let him do his job or it’s a clear showing that he has no faith in the guy he just hired…he can’t micro manage a guy who he feels can do the job…especially on the offensive side of the ball where he doesn’t have the expertise to interfere in a good way.
McCarthy is not the OC of the Packers but he is the one who calls the plays. It does not undermine his coordinator. Now, I certainly don't want Smith to take over calling all the plays but if there was a direction he demanded the play calling go, Tice would not feel emasculated by going there. No one is claiming Tice is or should be a mere puppet but he does have a boss.


That's because McCarthy is the best guy for the job...Lovie isn't the best guy to call offensive plays.
Surely you are not going to claim that I, of all people, believe he is. However, he is the Coach and, if he wanted to do so, he has every right to do so. And it, in no way, undermines his subordinate. That is why he is called a subordinate.


Obviously…but my point is he wouldn’t do that because he has no expertise to do so…hence the reason he hires a guy he has faith in and lets him run the show...coaching is as much about having the ability to hand things off to the right people…no HC can run a franchise on his own.
If Smith says "Mike I want to run the ball more here." Like he allegedly did last year with Martz there would be no problem with Tice. He would not have his feelings hurt or feel disrespected in the slightest. Tice is not a teenaged girl.
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