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msmre


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 20292
Location: Chicago, IL
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do we need Hutch? Where are the big money linemen in any of GIbbs' systems?

Oh yeah, no where. That's right, I forgot.

I think, pretty soon, some adults would actually wise up and not project how TT feels or deals behind closed doors rather than say that he doesn't do this or that, when you have no idea. Please! The result is what you have issues with. You have no new toys to think about. Go buy a car or something. How many times does a guy have to say that he is not going to build through FA to get it through your heads. Your behavior can not change just because you get the money.
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MadWisconian


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 1685
Location: Washington, D.C.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msmre wrote:
I am sure that those at Fan Fest would disagree. My father (a football coach) went yesterday and was as big of a fan of TT as MadWisco and he came away feeling very confident in the direction. He said the direction was clearly communicated and very sound.


What is Fan Fest anyway? A pep rally? It's at least good to know that TT is capable of BS'ing, that shows at least he has a little leadership ability. Have any idea of whether there are transcripts available? I would like some clarification on his decision making and the direction he's taking the team - it might soften my stance a little. (Probably not.)
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epackfan


Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 7968
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msmre wrote:
Why do we need Hutch? Where are the big money linemen in any of GIbbs' systems?

Oh yeah, no where. That's right, I forgot.

I think, pretty soon, some adults would actually wise up and not project how TT feels or deals behind closed doors rather than say that he doesn't do this or that, when you have no idea. Please! The result is what you have issues with. You have no new toys to think about. Go buy a car or something. How many times does a guy have to say that he is not going to build through FA to get it through your heads. Your behavior can not change just because you get the money.


Looks like we lost msmre. He's drank from TT's magic chalice filled with his sweet kool-aid. Looks like we'll just have to live with TT funfilled facts.
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MadWisconian


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 1685
Location: Washington, D.C.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where are the big money linemen in any of GIbbs' systems?


Just for the record I don't think signing a guard for that kind of money is wise, but to answer the question - Jansen, Rabach, & Samuels are all what I'd consider big money O linemen, just that their contracts are older, so lower relatively speaking. Of course, none of them are guards. The only two guys, maybe worth that kind of money on an offensive line is the L tackle and the center. When a G makes more money than most RB's and WR's, that's a problem.
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msmre


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Location: Chicago, IL
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadWisconian wrote:
Quote:
Where are the big money linemen in any of GIbbs' systems?


Just for the record I don't think signing a guard for that kind of money is wise, but to answer the question - Jansen, Rabach, & Samuels are all what I'd consider big money O linemen, just that their contracts are older, so lower relatively speaking. Of course, none of them are guards. The only two guys, maybe worth that kind of money on an offensive line is the L tackle and the center. When a G makes more money than most RB's and WR's, that's a problem.


Not Joe Gibbs. Alex Gibbs.
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msmre


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 20292
Location: Chicago, IL
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

epackfan wrote:
msmre wrote:
Why do we need Hutch? Where are the big money linemen in any of GIbbs' systems?

Oh yeah, no where. That's right, I forgot.

I think, pretty soon, some adults would actually wise up and not project how TT feels or deals behind closed doors rather than say that he doesn't do this or that, when you have no idea. Please! The result is what you have issues with. You have no new toys to think about. Go buy a car or something. How many times does a guy have to say that he is not going to build through FA to get it through your heads. Your behavior can not change just because you get the money.


Looks like we lost msmre. He's drank from TT's magic chalice filled with his sweet kool-aid. Looks like we'll just have to live with TT funfilled facts.


I am just telling you the truth about the zone schemes. If you want to have your head in the sand, I encourage it, but I ask you before you talk about me being unreasonable (typical O'Reilly dismissive speech to be drinking kool-aid) to actually check your facts (I know how you abhor them). The whole point of the zone scheme is that the linemen work together as one to create holes as a team, so you are better off having 5 guys that are good than 1 great and the rest less than great.

Last years starting OLine from the Falcons, name them. How many are making $13M, better yet, did they make that combined?

How about Denver? Nope, no one at $13M.

Jeez, ladies, do I have to shake you by the shoulders individually? We expected this to happen. He told us and we incorporated it into our mock drafts. Now because you all are envious of the loose pursestrings of our Nordic Neighbors to the west, you lose your senses? As Don Corleone said, "ACT LIKE A MAN."
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fgs5635


Joined: 24 Jan 2006
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Location: Manchester, UK
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bingo!! You have hit the nail on the head there, its coz of the viqueens.
If they weren't spending all this money then people wouldn't be whinning.
Just chill out guys and have a little faith in TT.
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msmre


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention that according to this 12 of the top 20 FA are still out there.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2360759
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hauschild


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 14491
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msmre wrote:
epackfan wrote:
msmre wrote:
Why do we need Hutch? Where are the big money linemen in any of GIbbs' systems?

Oh yeah, no where. That's right, I forgot.

I think, pretty soon, some adults would actually wise up and not project how TT feels or deals behind closed doors rather than say that he doesn't do this or that, when you have no idea. Please! The result is what you have issues with. You have no new toys to think about. Go buy a car or something. How many times does a guy have to say that he is not going to build through FA to get it through your heads. Your behavior can not change just because you get the money.


Looks like we lost msmre. He's drank from TT's magic chalice filled with his sweet kool-aid. Looks like we'll just have to live with TT funfilled facts.


I am just telling you the truth about the zone schemes. If you want to have your head in the sand, I encourage it, but I ask you before you talk about me being unreasonable (typical O'Reilly dismissive speech to be drinking kool-aid) to actually check your facts (I know how you abhor them). The whole point of the zone scheme is that the linemen work together as one to create holes as a team, so you are better off having 5 guys that are good than 1 great and the rest less than great.

Last years starting OLine from the Falcons, name them. How many are making $13M, better yet, did they make that combined?

How about Denver? Nope, no one at $13M.

Jeez, ladies, do I have to shake you by the shoulders individually? We expected this to happen. He told us and we incorporated it into our mock drafts. Now because you all are envious of the loose pursestrings of our Nordic Neighbors to the west, you lose your senses? As Don Corleone said, "ACT LIKE A MAN."

The fact remains, TT's making a mistake short-term, at the very least, by not signing some players with game.

It's all fine and dandy that he wants to build through the draft, but that's just hocus-pocus jargon for trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

If you got a QB like Rodgers, fine drink the kool-aid and think you can actually build a team 100 percent thru the draft. It won't matter by the 2nd or 3rd year because nobody will care because you'll lose many more games than you'll win. However, when you've got the chance to get #4 back and be somewhat competitive with a few key additions, any smart man with more brains than ego would put his ulterior motives on hold for the benefit of the fans and a few more years of potential magic.

I don't dislike TT by any stretch, but you've gotta assess him for what he is, currently, the brain child behind a 4-12 team. And, that ain't good. You can spin it however you like, but facts is facts and TT's start has been less than stellar.

Again, we're all fairly sharp and the bright thing to do would be to a big pot of balance here, at least for Brett's sake, because as Brett goes, so will Green Bay's fan base. This is already proven to me with people I know who no longer are interested in general managers with huge egos.

Bottom line, win and who cares what you look like doing it.
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rushpacker_56


Joined: 23 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Seahwaks built there team trhough the draft and ended up quite nicley. A free agent here and there, then a butt load in the draft. Worked out quite well for them. Perhaps it does work. Raiders throw cash every year and go nowhere. Last season the Vikes were fricken hyped when they got Sharper, Harris, Pat Williams, James, Smoot, and Cowart. They did not even make the playoffs. Not saying I would not like a nice FA, but we really can build via draft.
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hauschild


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rushpacker_56 wrote:
The Seahwaks built there team trhough the draft and ended up quite nicley. A free agent here and there, then a butt load in the draft. Worked out quite well for them. Perhaps it does work. Raiders throw cash every year and go nowhere. Last season the Vikes were fricken hyped when they got Sharper, Harris, Pat Williams, James, Smoot, and Cowart. They did not even make the playoffs. Not saying I would not like a nice FA, but we really can build via draft.

Of course it works, but you cannot survive long-term without an agressive free-agent plan because every year in this system, you're gonna lose players. Depending on the skill level of these players, you might not be able to replace them with a rookie. If you don't sign a player that is equal, or close, your team begins to regress.

We all realize you obviously build a basic team thru drafting, but because of the cap and FA, you will lose your stalwarts, enter Hutch. You think Alexeander isn't gonna feel the pain if Seattle can't match? And, if they do match, they're gonna hamstring themselves in some other area.

Green Bay must, especially this year, forge ahead with a mildy aggressive FA plan. It's one thing to be stubborn and implement a draft-only plan if your team is superior in every aspect, but Green Bay is very bad in almost every aspect that we would have to wait 3-5 years to see the return on investment. Personally, I'm of the mindset where why lose games if you do not have to? Signing some solid players each year will help you win more games each year, and all this at a fairly small cost.
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MadWisconian


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rushpacker_56 wrote:
The Seahwaks built there team trhough the draft and ended up quite nicley. A free agent here and there, then a butt load in the draft. Worked out quite well for them. Perhaps it does work. Raiders throw cash every year and go nowhere. Last season the Vikes were fricken hyped when they got Sharper, Harris, Pat Williams, James, Smoot, and Cowart. They did not even make the playoffs. Not saying I would not like a nice FA, but we really can build via draft.


Yeah, it only took them six years - with a great coach I might add. Wonder how long it'll take with a mediocre coach?
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msmre


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hauschild wrote:
rushpacker_56 wrote:
The Seahwaks built there team trhough the draft and ended up quite nicley. A free agent here and there, then a butt load in the draft. Worked out quite well for them. Perhaps it does work. Raiders throw cash every year and go nowhere. Last season the Vikes were fricken hyped when they got Sharper, Harris, Pat Williams, James, Smoot, and Cowart. They did not even make the playoffs. Not saying I would not like a nice FA, but we really can build via draft.

Of course it works, but you cannot survive long-term without an agressive free-agent plan because every year in this system, you're gonna lose players. Depending on the skill level of these players, you might not be able to replace them with a rookie. If you don't sign a player that is equal, or close, your team begins to regress.

We all realize you obviously build a basic team thru drafting, but because of the cap and FA, you will lose your stalwarts, enter Hutch. You think Alexeander isn't gonna feel the pain if Seattle can't match? And, if they do match, they're gonna hamstring themselves in some other area.

Green Bay must, especially this year, forge ahead with a mildy aggressive FA plan. It's one thing to be stubborn and implement a draft-only plan if your team is superior in every aspect, but Green Bay is very bad in almost every aspect that we would have to wait 3-5 years to see the return on investment. Personally, I'm of the mindset where why lose games if you do not have to? Signing some solid players each year will help you win more games each year, and all this at a fairly small cost.


The point is with TT's system is that if you stick to the system, you will only lose those players who

a.) Want to get out of dodge regardless or
b.) You want to leave.

Your money is not tied up with a guy you signed who was just past his prime. You have the natural flow of contract renewal. You draft them, they get good, you resign them. As opposed to what happens in places like Washington, where you draft them, they get good, they get cut.

Remember last year, Seattle drafted Chris Spencer in round 1. He had a year to learn and now when Hutch leaves, you have a top fill in.

The best way to approach this year is exactly how we said before it started. Sign guys to contracts that are short in term. Now some of you dreamers hoped that Hutch would sign a short deal, you were wrong, but whomever is left is likely not going to get the big bucks and may sign short term to get a bigger payday soon.
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msmre


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadWisconian wrote:
rushpacker_56 wrote:
The Seahwaks built there team trhough the draft and ended up quite nicley. A free agent here and there, then a butt load in the draft. Worked out quite well for them. Perhaps it does work. Raiders throw cash every year and go nowhere. Last season the Vikes were fricken hyped when they got Sharper, Harris, Pat Williams, James, Smoot, and Cowart. They did not even make the playoffs. Not saying I would not like a nice FA, but we really can build via draft.


Yeah, it only took them six years - with a great coach I might add. Wonder how long it'll take with a mediocre coach?


No kidding. Good thing that we don't have Sherman anymore, so that we don't need to find out. Laughing
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MadWisconian


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msmre wrote:
MadWisconian wrote:
rushpacker_56 wrote:
The Seahwaks built there team trhough the draft and ended up quite nicley. A free agent here and there, then a butt load in the draft. Worked out quite well for them. Perhaps it does work. Raiders throw cash every year and go nowhere. Last season the Vikes were fricken hyped when they got Sharper, Harris, Pat Williams, James, Smoot, and Cowart. They did not even make the playoffs. Not saying I would not like a nice FA, but we really can build via draft.


Yeah, it only took them six years - with a great coach I might add. Wonder how long it'll take with a mediocre coach?


No kidding. Good thing that we don't have Sherman anymore, so that we don't need to find out. Laughing


You'e killing me. Brick wall
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