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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetskid007 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
No, these drafts are still pretty bad. Especially that 2010 one. We drafted guys at positions we already had filled with larger pressing needs. You cannot honestly tell me we received the best possible value in the first round of the last three years considering our needs. You absolutely cannot. Not with our consistently mediocre to damn near-awful offense.



I wouldn't call it bad, but it's certainly not good. Average is the best way to describe them. I know it's hard to look back and say who the Jets should/shouldn't have taken, but that 2010 draft really wasn't good. I like Ducasse as I do Wilson, but they are taking VERY long to develop. I still believe Wilson will not fulfill his potential until he's moved to safety or plays in a Cover 2 defense.

As for 2011, I don't think there is much to be upset with. Kerley was a great take in the 5th round, Wilkerson is only in year 2 and is our best defensive lineman for a late 1st round pick, Kenrick Ellis is still developing but I still have a lot of confidence in him, and Bilal Powell is far from a reject 4th round pick.

My huge issue has to be with the way business was handled when trying to acquire talent on the offensive side of the ball. After the Jets drafted Sanchez, they pushed hard to trade up and draft Percy Harvin. They were reluctant to give up their 2010 1st (Kyle Wilson), but looking back on it that would've changed the way our offense has run over the past few years. That same offseason the Jets tried trading for Michael Crabtree during his holdout, which probably would've cost our 2010 1st, but the 49ers never came close to agreeing.

They had the right idea, just couldn't land them. They opted to trade their 3rd, 5th, and players for Braylon Edwards which appeared to work out, but only lasted 2 years.

A year later they traded for Santonio Holmes. He had a great year in 2010, but the Jets biggest mistake was giving him a guaranteed contract. Good player, but he checked out after that point. Though I don't want to make any guarantees, I think Sanchez will be a little more at ease without having to deal with Santonio all the time, and if he does end this season on a good note it's going to make things interesting.


What the Jets need to do is bolster the offense. I don't care how efficient we are as the year goes on, but this Jet team desperately lacks playmakers. Stephen Hill is a step, but I'd like to see the Jets add a dynamic RB (no, one great Shonn Greene game doesn't change my mind), some athletic/fast wide receivers, and a big TE if Keller is let go. At this point I hope the rest of the season can go semi-smooth... playoffs would be great but if we can go 8-8 and continue to build I wouldn't call it a lost season.
Bad, no...but here's my issue and it's not even in building through FA and trades. We went defense three years in a row in the first round when we fielded a top five defense. Will Wilkerson, Wilson and Coples end up being good players? Maybe. Is it worth it to take those guys in the first round with other pressing matters? Not at all. Especially when the biggest needs on the defensive side (safeties and linebackers who can COVER tight ends and RBs or a LB who can rush the passer!) weren't even taken care of.

I've yet to watch the game this Sunday (I hear Coples and Wilkerson got pressure so I'll look for that) but I've yet to see these guys do anything to substantially improve our DL in comparison to where it was in 2009 or 2010...why are we using first round picks on these guys if the plan is for them to be rotational guys instead of impact guys? Especially with more pressing needs on offense...

How do we draft a RB three out of the last four years and STILL need an every down back? Does that make any sense? How do we wait so long to draft a potential starter at receiver when we knew we couldn't afford Holmes-Edwards. Once we knew Edwards was likely out the door, we should have been looking to draft a WR early...Torrey Smith and Titus Young would have looked nice in green & white.
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jetskid007


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely agree with you, but you can't say that Wilkerson wasn't the right pick. Are you really telling me that you would take Torrey Smith/Titus Young over Wilk? Cause that's what would've needed to happen in order for them to be in Green and white.


As for Coples there is definitely much debate. I need to wait another year or 2 before determining whether or not he was the right pick, but I'm a bit biased because we landed Stephen Hill whom I had rated as one of my highest receivers on the board. Coples is getting better regardless what the stats indicate. Remember, he's only played about 40% of the snaps on the year... I don't see why he can't be a productive pass rusher out of the 34 end/43 interior spots if he continues developing. What I want to see is this guy get into great shape year 2. He has the athletic potential, just needs to get more conditioned and sculpt his body the way Wilk did.

When it's all said and done it's very hard to determine whether or not the 2011-2012 drafts will work out, but the 2010 draft was certainly fumbled. Vlad may turn out to be a good player but he's the type of guy that goes in the 4th as a small school-raw athlete type that needs time to develop, and Kyle Wilson simply wasn't going to impact the team more than a veteran nickelback or mid-round draft pick would.
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green24


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't really think of a better thread to put this in, but Jeremy Kerley, who we selected in the 5th round last season, has more receiving yards than any player selected in the 2012 draft. Kerley has already passed his receiving total from last season.

Last edited by green24 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Harris Smith


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetskid007 wrote:
A year later they traded for Santonio Holmes. He had a great year in 2010, but the Jets biggest mistake was giving him a guaranteed contract. Good player, but he checked out after that point. Though I don't want to make any guarantees, I think Sanchez will be a little more at ease without having to deal with Santonio all the time, and if he does end this season on a good note it's going to make things interesting.


This is an interesting point that's been brought up. I mean, obviously it's not ideal to be fielding WR's like Jason Hill or Clyde Gates, but it may not be crazy to think the Holmes injury turns out to be addition by subtraction in Sanchez's case. For once, he's not going to have to endure all these volatile personalities in the huddle and the meeting rooms, and he can just focus on throwing to the open man. It worked for Eli when the Giants shipped Shockey out of town.
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Karmaloop


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
Couldn't reall think of a better thread to put this in, but Jeremy Kerley, who selected in the 5th round last season, has more receiving yards than any player selected in the 2012 draft. Kerley has already passed his receiving total from last season.
Really a nice pick. I think if all of our receiving options (Holmes, Hill, Kerley, Keller) were healthy and get to develop, we have a solid group. You also add in Joe McKnight as a wild card and I think our weapons are underrated. We just need a #1 RB if Shonn Greene cannot continue his performance, I also like Powell as our #2 RB.
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jetskid007


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
Couldn't reall think of a better thread to put this in, but Jeremy Kerley, who selected in the 5th round last season, has more receiving yards than any player selected in the 2012 draft. Kerley has already passed his receiving total from last season.


And although he's not a dynamic athlete, he's a good slot play and has chemistry with Sanchez. He's on pace for 48 catches and 840 yards. For a 5th round pick, I take that any day of the week. We really should thank Schottenhiemer for this one Laughing (remember personal workout with "Dalton")
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Jamison.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetskid007 wrote:
green24 wrote:
Couldn't reall think of a better thread to put this in, but Jeremy Kerley, who selected in the 5th round last season, has more receiving yards than any player selected in the 2012 draft. Kerley has already passed his receiving total from last season.


And although he's not a dynamic athlete, he's a good slot play and has chemistry with Sanchez. He's on pace for 48 catches and 840 yards. For a 5th round pick, I take that any day of the week. We really should thank Schottenhiemer for this one Laughing (remember personal workout with "Dalton")
He has more yards than Green? Jones?
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green24


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamison. wrote:
jetskid007 wrote:
green24 wrote:
Couldn't reall think of a better thread to put this in, but Jeremy Kerley, who selected in the 5th round last season, has more receiving yards than any player selected in the 2012 draft. Kerley has already passed his receiving total from last season.


And although he's not a dynamic athlete, he's a good slot play and has chemistry with Sanchez. He's on pace for 48 catches and 840 yards. For a 5th round pick, I take that any day of the week. We really should thank Schottenhiemer for this one Laughing (remember personal workout with "Dalton")
He has more yards than Green? Jones?

From the 2012 draft. Kendall Wright leads with 285 yards.
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Jamison.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
Jamison. wrote:
jetskid007 wrote:
green24 wrote:
Couldn't reall think of a better thread to put this in, but Jeremy Kerley, who selected in the 5th round last season, has more receiving yards than any player selected in the 2012 draft. Kerley has already passed his receiving total from last season.


And although he's not a dynamic athlete, he's a good slot play and has chemistry with Sanchez. He's on pace for 48 catches and 840 yards. For a 5th round pick, I take that any day of the week. We really should thank Schottenhiemer for this one Laughing (remember personal workout with "Dalton")
He has more yards than Green? Jones?

From the 2012 draft. Kendall Wright leads with 285 yards.
Mis-read it. My bad.
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jetskid007


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harris Smith wrote:
jetskid007 wrote:
A year later they traded for Santonio Holmes. He had a great year in 2010, but the Jets biggest mistake was giving him a guaranteed contract. Good player, but he checked out after that point. Though I don't want to make any guarantees, I think Sanchez will be a little more at ease without having to deal with Santonio all the time, and if he does end this season on a good note it's going to make things interesting.


This is an interesting point that's been brought up. I mean, obviously it's not ideal to be fielding WR's like Jason Hill or Clyde Gates, but it may not be crazy to think the Holmes injury turns out to be addition by subtraction in Sanchez's case. For once, he's not going to have to endure all these volatile personalities in the huddle and the meeting rooms, and he can just focus on throwing to the open man. It worked for Eli when the Giants shipped Shockey out of town.


My point exactly. If you look back to the Houston game you really can't fault Sanchez for everything; he can't let so many balls get tipped, but at the same time the receivers can't drop certain balls. He looked awful against San Fran, however I've definitely seen an improvement these last two weeks. If the Jets can have a stretch like the Giants had in 08-09 (Manningham, Nicks, Barden) it will really help the development of Sanchez. They grabbed Hill and Kerley the past two seasons, now I'd like to see another two pass catchers drafted in rounds 1-4 this year... and I'm not ruling out Tyler Eifert cause that kid is a beast
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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetskid007 wrote:
I definitely agree with you, but you can't say that Wilkerson wasn't the right pick. Are you really telling me that you would take Torrey Smith/Titus Young over Wilk? Cause that's what would've needed to happen in order for them to be in Green and white.


As for Coples there is definitely much debate. I need to wait another year or 2 before determining whether or not he was the right pick, but I'm a bit biased because we landed Stephen Hill whom I had rated as one of my highest receivers on the board. Coples is getting better regardless what the stats indicate. Remember, he's only played about 40% of the snaps on the year... I don't see why he can't be a productive pass rusher out of the 34 end/43 interior spots if he continues developing. What I want to see is this guy get into great shape year 2. He has the athletic potential, just needs to get more conditioned and sculpt his body the way Wilk did.

When it's all said and done it's very hard to determine whether or not the 2011-2012 drafts will work out, but the 2010 draft was certainly fumbled. Vlad may turn out to be a good player but he's the type of guy that goes in the 4th as a small school-raw athlete type that needs time to develop, and Kyle Wilson simply wasn't going to impact the team more than a veteran nickelback or mid-round draft pick would.
Imagine where we are offensively if 2010 is spent with a RB in the first and a WR in 2011. Or just a WR in 2011.

Let's imagine having McCluster or Jahvid Best in 2010...then Torrey Smith or Titus Young in 2011. Forget injuries, simply at potential, no one is complaining about offensive woes, or excuses for Sanchez...you think the defense plays any more mediocre than it does now without Kyle Wilson and Wilkerson? idk...I think Rex could scheme Snacks, DeVito and some no-name corner in their just fine. He's done it before.

Just for some perspective, we could realistically walk into this season with Torrey Smith-Santonio Holmes-Jeremy Kerley at WR and Jahvid Best at tailback with Greene as the backup. There's a lot to like about an offense like that. On defense, we could still even have Coples and Kenrick Ellis, with say DeVito or Dixon at the other end spot. There's still enough players for a solid DL rotation. Corners outside of Cromartie might look a little dry, but after the Colts AFCCG I don't think the team fails to address a NCB in FA/draft.
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Rockice_8


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ Just seeing you put Holmes' name in the WR list just makes me cringe. I'm done with him.

Best's career is basically over and McCluster is nothing special, actually McKnight is probably better. Smith would have been a nice pickup though.

This team needs a good second TE to pair with Keller, 2 new guards who can run block and a complete 3 down back so Greene can go back to wearing teams out in the second half (that's his best role). With those minor additions our offense will be fine.

Actually our D surprisingly probably needs just as much work. Need 2 new OLB's and a new FS (although I like the way Allen played last week).

This team is not that far away from getting back to being a contender. I know it seems like alot of work but I think it can be done in one offseason if we use our cap right and hit in the draft.

1st - RB/OLB
2nd - which ever we didn't take in the 1st.
3rd - OG
4th - TE
5th - CB/FS
6th - OT depth
7th - maybe a new FB

FA
sign best OG, bring in another OLB (or pace for cheap on 1 year deal). Give Sapp a chance to win the spot.

I really hope the FO sees the weaknesses of this team and addresses them.
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Jetsman82


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Rockice said, the guys you mentioned aren't really even that special.

Regarding my post about the past three draft classes: I wasn't trying to say we've drafted all-stars, but the Jets have gotten a good amount of production out of their draft picks.

2010 can easily be looked at as a down draft, but in reality, each and every one of the picks is either a starter, or rotating with a starter.

I'm not going to sit here, bang the table, and say Kyle Wilson, Vladimir Ducasse, Joe McKnight and John Conner was an excellent draft class, but not many teams get this many starters out of a draft class.
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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, these guys were picked as BPA over need...and while that's nice to do and all, 3 years later these picks have made us such a lopsided roster. We're incredibly deep at DL and CB...and nowhere else. These are places we were deep at after Rex's first year. Why are we continuing to add depth at these spots? And forgetting about our offense entirely...

I'd take McCluster and Smith over any offensive player we've taken since the Rex era. McCluster's a dynamic player that could easily have filled the Brad Smith role for us...except he can actually catch and he plays RB as well. Forget wildcat, we could have this guy lining up in the slot, out of the backfield, on the outside, AND returning punts/kicks. The FO was gaga for Percy Harvin...McCluster is a player in the same vein.

Best has been hurt, but who's to say he gets hurt with our OL blocking for him. Plus he's an every down back and is rumored to return to action this year (as early as week 7 last I heard.) He's unproven, but I'd rather have had McCluster at the pick anyways. Especially over Kyle Wilson.
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jetskid007


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colt45fool wrote:
jetskid007 wrote:
I definitely agree with you, but you can't say that Wilkerson wasn't the right pick. Are you really telling me that you would take Torrey Smith/Titus Young over Wilk? Cause that's what would've needed to happen in order for them to be in Green and white.


As for Coples there is definitely much debate. I need to wait another year or 2 before determining whether or not he was the right pick, but I'm a bit biased because we landed Stephen Hill whom I had rated as one of my highest receivers on the board. Coples is getting better regardless what the stats indicate. Remember, he's only played about 40% of the snaps on the year... I don't see why he can't be a productive pass rusher out of the 34 end/43 interior spots if he continues developing. What I want to see is this guy get into great shape year 2. He has the athletic potential, just needs to get more conditioned and sculpt his body the way Wilk did.

When it's all said and done it's very hard to determine whether or not the 2011-2012 drafts will work out, but the 2010 draft was certainly fumbled. Vlad may turn out to be a good player but he's the type of guy that goes in the 4th as a small school-raw athlete type that needs time to develop, and Kyle Wilson simply wasn't going to impact the team more than a veteran nickelback or mid-round draft pick would.
Imagine where we are offensively if 2010 is spent with a RB in the first and a WR in 2011. Or just a WR in 2011.

Let's imagine having McCluster or Jahvid Best in 2010...then Torrey Smith or Titus Young in 2011. Forget injuries, simply at potential, no one is complaining about offensive woes, or excuses for Sanchez...you think the defense plays any more mediocre than it does now without Kyle Wilson and Wilkerson? idk...I think Rex could scheme Snacks, DeVito and some no-name corner in their just fine. He's done it before.

Just for some perspective, we could realistically walk into this season with Torrey Smith-Santonio Holmes-Jeremy Kerley at WR and Jahvid Best at tailback with Greene as the backup. There's a lot to like about an offense like that. On defense, we could still even have Coples and Kenrick Ellis, with say DeVito or Dixon at the other end spot. There's still enough players for a solid DL rotation. Corners outside of Cromartie might look a little dry, but after the Colts AFCCG I don't think the team fails to address a NCB in FA/draft.



I can't disagree with you more in terms of passing on Wilk to draft Torrey Smith. You speak of Wilk as if he's average, but he's quietly developing into one of the better d-lineman in the NFL. By next year I'm willing to bet he'll be a consistent stud in the lineup, and I believe Stephen Hill is essentially the deep threat we would've had with Torrey Smith, but slightly less polished at this point.

Where I agree is drafting Jahvid Best at tailback, because he was legitimately within a considerable range (it's easy to pick out Gronk or Decker or Graham and say they should've been the pick in retrospect), but even that was iffy considering how well Shonn played down the stretch in 09. Either way, Kyle Wilson should've never been the pick. If your definitely going defense, I still think Jerry Hughes is the guy... he got his career off to a slow start in the Tampa 2, but he never belonged in that system anyway. He was always meant to be a 3-4 OLB and I thought he looked solid against us on Sunday.

If we're going to talk best-case scenario, we draft Jahvid Best and role with him and Shonn. Concussion problems aside (again, trying not to think in retrospect), he's a dynamic threat in the passing game and would've been a great change-of-pace to the young Shonn Greene, while Shonn managed the early down/short yardage/finisher roles. Basically Best would've been a more permanent, younger version of LaDainian for us.
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