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oakdb36

Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 12764

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:01 am Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

macklemore wrote:

A+ for effort.

I like what you did, but a mock this soon? Way, way, way too early.

And you forgot about DC's in the coaching pool, Jason Tarver has been terrible.

SMH....... yup, has nothing to do with the fact he has no talent and lost both his starting CBs to injury. That couldn't play a role at all. Rolling Eyes

It surely does but the D doesn't look very creative either.
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Baggabonez

Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 3778
Location: RaiderNation

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:07 am Post subject:

JTagg7754 wrote:

I like it all except the first pick. There is literally no reason to go CB first. I know it's the biggest need but the value isn't there. Not at all.

As a Saber-metric guy like you I totally understand your perspective. However, I would ask for a value based alternative. The Raiders DESPERATELY need an edge rusher but this draft is void of an every down 43 edge rusher. I really like Gholston, who possibly could play every down, but I have him going around 17th. I would not pass on a transcendent CB in Milliner who has exhibits Charles Woodson tackling skills for a solid edge rusher. It's really rare to find a 6'1" 190lbs+ guy that runs in the 4.3 range that actually aggressively tackles and has never missed games due to injury, iirc. I wanted to make the comparison to Charles Woodson but I thought I might lose some folks.

This defense will require multiple drafts in order to be fixed, why not draft a potentially transcendent player at a position of need? I could make a case for Jonathan Hankins who fits perfectly in the Saber-metric mold but I'm still breaking him down, I don't know much about him and I'm cautious because his rise has been meteoric from seemingly nowhere.

Don't forget this team needs draft picks so factor that in. would you rather have Hankins and no 2nd or trade back a few spots in the Top 10 and get Milliner & Carradine/Gholston/Dallas Thomas/etc??
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JTagg7754

Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 7255
Location: Somewhere in Ohio

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:31 am Post subject:

Baggabonez wrote:

JTagg7754 wrote:

I like it all except the first pick. There is literally no reason to go CB first. I know it's the biggest need but the value isn't there. Not at all.

Gholston is a solid player. Obviously w/ my collegiate alliance, I worry about the blood lines but can't hold that against him haha. Milner looks like a great CB, I'm not going to deny that. Even if he does turn out the be the best CB of all time, it doubt it would do much for us. We had that in Nnamdi. We lost a lot. Revis goes down, the Jets play a Texans offense that's looking solid, and they still hold them in check for the most part. In fact, the only big plays the Texans really had was rushing the football when Revis wouldn't be a factor anyway. I guess we might be able to attribute that to Cro and WIlson but shouldn't a team stutter after their best player goes down? The 5th best player in the league as voted by their peers?

IMO it's mine and everyone elses dream scenario to trade down. I don't like assuming it will happen b/c it rarely does and it makes everything too perfect. BUT w/ the new cap, it does become more reasonable. I would definitely prefer to trade down and snag Joeckle if he's around (although I doubt it even though this OT class is pretty thin [assuming the Dunlap thing doesnt work out]), Tony Jefferson later, or if we were to switch them, then yes, Thomas would be a solid selection IMO and TJ McDonald for examples of the route I'd like to go.

It really depends on how we do FA. We NEED rushers first and foremost. Just seeing Watt dominate just shows how much a top notch DE can affect a game. It made me a little jealous to be frank haha.

I'm all over the place on this post, I know haha. Tough to do these things at work sometimes when they do require a good amount of thought which most of your posts do. Cheers!
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NCOUGHMAN wrote:

Quote:

you wouldnt want Rodgers Brady or Manning in his prime as your QBs?

not with the way the nfl is right now. id take a guy like kaep over them

ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject:

JTagg7754 wrote:

I like it all except the first pick. There is literally no reason to go CB first. I know it's the biggest need but the value isn't there. Not at all.

I kinda feel the same way. We had Nnamdi for years and he really didnt make a big difference on our defense because QBs just stayed away from him and picked on our weaker links. Of course it all depends on who is available at that point, but I would rather go QB, pass rusher or offensive line with that pick, or trade down yet again. As long as we stay somewhere near the middle of the first I think we will have a shot at a good player at a position of need. If we trade back further I wouldnt be opposed to a CB in the first, just not sure about top-10.

Also, I dont know about Cleveland going QB in the 1st. They just took Weedon and I dont know if they would give up on him after just his rookie year. I know he is already 29, so that could be a driving factor, but if that were the case then i dont think they wouldve taken him in the first place.
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La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject:

TiberiusRising wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

macklemore wrote:

A+ for effort.

I like what you did, but a mock this soon? Way, way, way too early.

And you forgot about DC's in the coaching pool, Jason Tarver has been terrible.

SMH....... yup, has nothing to do with the fact he has no talent and lost both his starting CBs to injury. That couldn't play a role at all. Rolling Eyes

Possibly. But I am willing to give Tarver a pass no matter what. I like his philosophy and energy. I think once the players execute what he is saying and teaching we will be fine. With that said this is his first year as a DC and he has lots of learning to do. Allen's defense didnt look that great the first half of the season last year either and they kept improving.

+1

I know we was a co-coordinator at Stanford, but they always seemed to overachieve. They were not talentless by any means, but when you look at the defensive rankings, their level of talent does not match up with a lot of the teams they were ranked closely too. I like Tarver a lot, he just has nothing to work with right now. He deserves a couple years because honestly he isnt doing anything wrong right now. You cant build a wall with 11 sheets of paper.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

nice presentation as always

i think milliner benefits from the great defense if i had to take a cb that early id take david from ncstate.

like tank

dont really like the te pick right there think we can get more value
we def need a OG but im hoping bresiel and bergtrom can show something

Do you even watch college football? Amerson has been a joke. He gave up FOUR TDs against Miami. And a game winner if you count the 5th TD when he was in zone and lost sight of the man coming into his zone.

Amerson has had lapses in coverage all season. Tennessee torched him twice on long TDs.

My guess is, you read he led the NCAA w/ 13 picks in 2011 and bought in. But he's been anything but spectacular this season. He's been downright putrid.

He needs a lot of refinement. I would cringe spending a 1st round pick on him because you don't know who you are getting.

and our last sure fire cant miss first rounders have been all stars right?
gallery, dmac, rolo etc

So, since guys who played great in college busted... we should draft a guy who played terrible this year and hope for the opposite?

In all seriousness, his skill set is great, but IDK about spending a 1st on a CB who has been exposed in college. Usually you take someone who was consistantly good in the 1st. On one hand, I want a CB who takes a chance. We havent had a playmaker in our secondary in forever. But then I think about DeAngelo Hall and cringe. I wouldnt mind having a gambler, but only if we can get a solid CB opposite him.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12594
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

and our last sure fire cant miss first rounders have been all stars right?
gallery, dmac, rolo etc

d hall wasnt a man press corner also.

personally i want matthews in the first and trufant in the 3rd

but if i HAD to pick a cb id pick david
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green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

big_palooka

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19067
Location: ATL

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

and our last sure fire cant miss first rounders have been all stars right?
gallery, dmac, rolo etc

imo he has a prime time like skill set and great ball skills yea he got torched a few times in tenn but their qb and wrs are all going in the first and he bounced back ok. i like the fact that he is playing well on a no-name defense with little to none help so you get to see the good and the bad. being on a good team can hide alot of flaws that come up in the pros.

He did not bounce back. He gave up 5 TDs!!! 5!!! to Miami. Guy has been an absolute eyesore this season.
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big_palooka

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19067
Location: ATL

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject:

oakdb36 wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

macklemore wrote:

A+ for effort.

I like what you did, but a mock this soon? Way, way, way too early.

And you forgot about DC's in the coaching pool, Jason Tarver has been terrible.

SMH....... yup, has nothing to do with the fact he has no talent and lost both his starting CBs to injury. That couldn't play a role at all. Rolling Eyes

It surely does but the D doesn't look very creative either.

How creative can you be with your starting FS playing CB, no depth, no pass rushers, a liability MLB and 2 old DTs not getting any push?

Need talent to be creative. These guys can't even cover basic routes or get to the QB in any situation.
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ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

and our last sure fire cant miss first rounders have been all stars right?
gallery, dmac, rolo etc

d hall wasnt a man press corner also.

personally i want matthews in the first and trufant in the 3rd

but if i HAD to pick a cb id pick david

True. I was thrilled when we traded for him, god was I wrong. I'm a big fan of Trufant. I really dont know if I want a CB in the 1st though. I just have a feeling he will be taken out of the game like Aso was if he turns out to be good. I want a DE or QB- someone who can make an impact. Now, if we get a solid 2nd CB to pair him with, then it would be a different story because QBs wouldnt be able to simply avoid one side of the field and pick on the 2nd CB.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

JTagg7754

Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 7255
Location: Somewhere in Ohio

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

JTagg7754 wrote:

I like it all except the first pick. There is literally no reason to go CB first. I know it's the biggest need but the value isn't there. Not at all.

Exactly. Nnamdi did jack to help us win and he hasn't done crap in Philly to help them win. The Jets defense looked pretty good at times last night especially against the pass w/ Revis out. This is the best of the best and they don't have much of a factor. I think people are finally starting to realize this around here lol. Next stop, GMs and owners.... yeah right.

Cleveland will definitely not take a QB. They're either take Jones or traderape someone w/ that pick who wants Smith or Barkley badly enough. Get more picks like they did for Atlanta w/ Jones and accumulate more young talent making them the toughest competitor from 2015-2025.............. let's face it, it's the Browns.... they'll find some way to screw it up LOL. Poor guys.
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NCOUGHMAN wrote:

Quote:

you wouldnt want Rodgers Brady or Manning in his prime as your QBs?

not with the way the nfl is right now. id take a guy like kaep over them

big_palooka

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19067
Location: ATL

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject:

I'll settle this debate. KC is desperate for a QB. They have Houston and Hali, they won't draft Jones.

Jones and Oakland are a good fit. He's a versatile LB. Quick first step as a pass rusher and a stud against the run as well. He's the type you build around.

That is to say, I don't think KC finish worse that Oakland. They have some talent to win games. Oakland, Jacksonville and Tennessee are my top 3 picks. Buffalo may make some noise too.
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ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

I'd be happy with Jones, as he would fill two huge needs: LB and pass rusher. Honestly, I'll be happy with him, a QB, or a stud DE in the first. The only good thing about having so many holes and a high draft pick is that we will have a lot of options.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

big_palooka

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19067
Location: ATL

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

Pretty much how I feel. There are so many holes, just land a player who can have an early impact and be a franchise staple and I'm happy.
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JTagg7754

Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 7255
Location: Somewhere in Ohio

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

Pretty much how I feel. There are so many holes, just land a player who can have an early impact and be a franchise staple and I'm happy.

I agree w/ this although I'd like it to be a player who is a factor on almost every play. unfortunately that just leaves linemen and LBs and QBs for the most part. If there's that exception, once in a decade player (ie Luck, Calvin Johnson etc), grab him.
_________________

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

Quote:

you wouldnt want Rodgers Brady or Manning in his prime as your QBs?

not with the way the nfl is right now. id take a guy like kaep over them

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