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Can we turn this season around?
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Harper was not in one on one coverage with gates all game... don't kid yourself! At times yes, not all game! Hell, Quddus was on Gates more in that game when Harper was on the bench.

2. While im not saying jenkins troubles are all harpers fault... i am saying that many times when he is caught out of position it is because he is compensating for harpers lack of coverage. That is absoutly clear!
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
Actually if you listen to the commentators they even said it was likely that Jenkins was supposed to be reading the TE/RB and he made the step in on that play but White let a deep threat in Meachem get past him and Jenkins couldn't recover.

Personally I think we should just move Harper to WLB permanently let him play that inside role, put Quddus at FS and Jenkins at FS/SS. I think Jenkins is exactly what Spags wants in a FS so we need another FS/SS to pair with him. Quddus would be good, so would several others like Reid or Lester in the upcoming draft.


Harper is GREAT at what he does... he just isn't a safety IN THIS SCHEME

Jenkins is an above adverage physical safety for this scheme but his lack of ball skills is screaming a move to SS.

The need of a playmaking FS on this roster is as much as a dynamic pass rusher. If the Saints are picking between 8-15 and are looking at the 3rd to 4th best pass rusher compared to the drafts top FS in LSU's Eric Reid... I don't see how they pass on Reid!
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres our remaining schedule and how I could see it playing out

@Tampa Bay - W
@Denver - W
Eagles - L
Atlanta - W
@Oakland - W
49ers - L
@Atlanta - L
@New York - W
Tampa Bay - W
@Dallas - W
Carolina - W

That would put us at 9-7, but we could easily lose the games at Denver and New York. It's not plausible, but its possible we pull out a few upsets, especially if the defense gets better...like at all
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Lombardi Gras


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 things:

Jenkins sucks. I don't know why Raves thinks that he is exactly the type of player that Spags wants. You can have physical ability to the max, but his mental understanding of the game is just poor. Poor angles, poor coverage, and above all he's a punk and always in after the play. I wanted Jenkins originally, and thought he would succeed as a FS, but he hasn't.

Second: draft Eric Reid. He's going to be a stud. Or a dominant pass rusher.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Heres our remaining schedule and how I could see it playing out

@Tampa Bay - W
@Denver - W
Eagles - L
Atlanta - W
@Oakland - W
49ers - L
@Atlanta - L
@New York - W
Tampa Bay - W
@Dallas - W
Carolina - W

That would put us at 9-7, but we could easily lose the games at Denver and New York. It's not plausible, but its possible we pull out a few upsets, especially if the defense gets better...like at all


I agree... the difference between 6-10 to 9-7 for us will come down to a play here and a play there. With what this team has gone through and still will have to battle I just see either a 7-9 or 8-8 record as the most realistic outcome.

I do still hope though!
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lombardi Gras wrote:
2 things:

Jenkins sucks. I don't know why Raves thinks that he is exactly the type of player that Spags wants. You can have physical ability to the max, but his mental understanding of the game is just poor. Poor angles, poor coverage, and above all he's a punk and always in after the play. I wanted Jenkins originally, and thought he would succeed as a FS, but he hasn't.

Second: draft Eric Reid. He's going to be a stud. Or a dominant pass rusher.


I'll concide that Jenkins has vastly underachived but I don't believe he sucks. I think whats being asked of him is far to much for his skill set and understanding of the game. I feel a move to strong safety would benfit Jenkins greatly, especially if the Saints were to secure a playmaking FS like Reid to play along side him.
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Lombardi Gras


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Lombardi Gras wrote:
2 things:

Jenkins sucks. I don't know why Raves thinks that he is exactly the type of player that Spags wants. You can have physical ability to the max, but his mental understanding of the game is just poor. Poor angles, poor coverage, and above all he's a punk and always in after the play. I wanted Jenkins originally, and thought he would succeed as a FS, but he hasn't.

Second: draft Eric Reid. He's going to be a stud. Or a dominant pass rusher.


I'll concide that Jenkins has vastly underachived but I don't believe he sucks. I think whats being asked of him is far to much for his skill set and understanding of the game. I feel a move to strong safety would benfit Jenkins greatly, especially if the Saints were to secure a playmaking FS like Reid to play along side him.


Jenkins isn't big enough to be a traditional strong safety. He's not a good enough tackler at all. He may have the aggression for it, but that's about it. Unless Spags would rarely use him in the box and essentially have two free safeties, I don't see how it would work.

Maybe two free safeties is the future though. It's a passing league now, and probably for the future too.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lombardi Gras wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Lombardi Gras wrote:
2 things:

Jenkins sucks. I don't know why Raves thinks that he is exactly the type of player that Spags wants. You can have physical ability to the max, but his mental understanding of the game is just poor. Poor angles, poor coverage, and above all he's a punk and always in after the play. I wanted Jenkins originally, and thought he would succeed as a FS, but he hasn't.

Second: draft Eric Reid. He's going to be a stud. Or a dominant pass rusher.


I'll concide that Jenkins has vastly underachived but I don't believe he sucks. I think whats being asked of him is far to much for his skill set and understanding of the game. I feel a move to strong safety would benfit Jenkins greatly, especially if the Saints were to secure a playmaking FS like Reid to play along side him.


Jenkins isn't big enough to be a traditional strong safety. He's not a good enough tackler at all. He may have the aggression for it, but that's about it. Unless Spags would rarely use him in the box and essentially have two free safeties, I don't see how it would work.

Maybe two free safeties is the future though. It's a passing league now, and probably for the future too.


Most forget that Spags utlizes 3 safetys in his defensive concepts... Actually the skill set of jenkins matches better with what Spagnuolo wants to do defensivly and he likes his safetys to be interchangable witch makes Jenkins a better fit at SS in spags scheme due to his aggressiveness.

Rarely does Spags want his safety in the box... he's just playing by what he currently has and getting the most out of his players skill sets. Spags wants (in a perfect world) his safetys in zone.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing Jenkins is aggressive about is hitting guy late after they torch his punk arse.
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FLOODx


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand all the hype Reid is getting this season. He really hasn't impressed me this year, but maybe it's just me..
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saintsfan


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That long TD was actually Harper's fault. Watch the play, Jenkins was man on the RB/TE, that's why he dropped down. White was man on man on Meachem and got burnt. Harper was dropping into a one-deep zone but was too focused on the left side and didn't see Meachem flying down the field. Watch the replay, you will see Harper covering the other WR over the top, dropping down the field, but he didn't drop far enough to be in position to make a play on Meachem. After the play, you saw Spags grab Harper and talk to him, Harper knew he messed up. Just cus Collinsworth said it was Jenkins fault, doesn't mean anything, he literally is the worst announcer.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saintsfan wrote:
That long TD was actually Harper's fault. Watch the play, Jenkins was man on the RB/TE, that's why he dropped down. White was man on man on Meachem and got burnt. Harper was dropping into a one-deep zone but was too focused on the left side and didn't see Meachem flying down the field. Watch the replay, you will see Harper covering the other WR over the top, dropping down the field, but he didn't drop far enough to be in position to make a play on Meachem. After the play, you saw Spags grab Harper and talk to him, Harper knew he messed up. Just cus Collinsworth said it was Jenkins fault, doesn't mean anything, he literally is the worst announcer.

What are you talking about? Unless I'm blind as a bat Roman Harper blitzed on that play man
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Canadian Saint


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things:

From PFF:

Quote:
The Overrated One

We’ve never been huge fans of Malcolm Jenkins (-6.1). Part of that we figured was down to being put in unfavorable situations with an ultra aggressive Gregg Williams defense. Perhaps we were giving him more credit than he warranted?
Busted coverage discussions aside Jenkins missed four tackles and whilst his controversial pass break up that led to an interception was crucial, it really shouldn’t make up for his poor performance in the rest of the game. He’s a safety, but he doesn’t make me feel any safer about the backend of the Saints’ defense.


I don't see a solid argument for Jenkins to move to SS over Harper. We'd be down grading the SS position.

I also don't understand the Harper wasn't on Gates all game argument either. Quddus played nearly 50% less snaps than Harper did (39 vs. 69), from what I saw, Harper covered Gates for most of the game.

2.) On the long pass TD, the Saints themselves said it was a miscommunication between the safeties:

Quote:
(1:48 - 0:44) An awful drive by the Saints' defense started with a 21-yard draw-play run by tailback Ronnie Brown and ended with a 44-yard touchdown pass from Rivers to Meachem. Meachem broke wide open downfield behind White, and the Saints later explained that there was a breakdown in coverage assignments by the safeties, though the culprit wasn't specified. Likely it was either Jenkins or Isa Abdul-Quddus who was responsible for providing deep help. But defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo was talking to Harper on the sideline after the play, in which Harper had blitzed from his nickel linebacker position.


I get that Harper isn't Kam Chancellor in coverage, and thats fine, but the normal narrative that any blown coverage is on Harper is just lazy analysis. Harper has been the most consistent safety this season, and arguably the best defensive back for the Saints. He absolutely balled last game. Jenkins didn't suck because he was making up for Harper deficiencies, he sucked because he wasn't able to do what was asked of him. Look at PBP observation by Nola.com, and see how many times Jenkins is featured as getting beat. I counted 4 coverages that he blew.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spot on. Roman Harper has been one of our best players this season, blaming him is laughable. Malcolm Jenkins, quite frankly, sucks. People need to get past the whole "he has potential" thing because he doesn't. Whether it was because he learned bad tendencies or not, he has been miserable for the past 2 seasons. I'd say FS is our second biggest need behind getting a pass rusher.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Spot on. Roman Harper has been one of our best players this season, blaming him is laughable. Malcolm Jenkins, quite frankly, sucks. People need to get past the whole "he has potential" thing because he doesn't. Whether it was because he learned bad tendencies or not, he has been miserable for the past 2 seasons. I'd say FS is our second biggest need behind getting a pass rusher.


I agree FS is our second biggest need but if people actually believe Roman Harper dosen't need to go as well their crazy. Sure he makes a play or 2 when blitzing but he makes just as many blown tackles and coverages as Jenkins does. The only difference is that Jenkins has the speed to actually try and catch back up and therefor he's mistakes are see up close, Harper on the other hand gets beat so badly that he's not even in the picture but the Harper homers are always sure to mask this and point the finger at another DB simply because he makes a play on a blitz now and then.
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