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Mike Wallace and Haley's offense
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Mike Wallace and Haley's offense Reply with quote

This isnt really meant to judge Mike Wallace's skills as a player, but more so his fit and role in this new offense.

Basically, Im not seeing it. Thats not to say he cant have success in this offense, but we rarely seem to attempt deep passes under Haley and Wallace's big play ability is going to waste.

Obviously, there are still 12 games left, but my question is...do we really want to pay top dollar for him? We probably wont be able to afford it anyway, but even if we clear enough space, is it worth investing that type of money in? Pretty evident that Brown is the go to guy now, and while Im a big Wallace fan, I just dont see him being worth top dollar in our current offense.

And while Im still not in favor of giving Mendy a big contract, the fact that Haley and even Ben seem to be looking at him more as a receiver, and the fact that Haley's running game is more complimentary to Mendy's running style than Arians offense was, Mendy may become the bigger priority.

Again...this isnt meant to argue against Wallace or even say I dont want to keep him, because I do.

My question is, is he worth top dollar TO US given our current offensive style?
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's contract year for Mike Wallace and it doesn't look like he's playing with 100% effort. Might be a concern, could just be a game or two. Did have this issue last year for a few games IMO. Or, it might be a statement against Steelers or statement he doesn't like our new offense. I still question Mendy's motivation. Seems he only runs hard when he has to.
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treat88


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Mike Wallace and Haley's offense Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
This isnt really meant to judge Mike Wallace's skills as a player, but more so his fit and role in this new offense.

Basically, Im not seeing it. Thats not to say he cant have success in this offense, but we rarely seem to attempt deep passes under Haley and Wallace's big play ability is going to waste.

Obviously, there are still 12 games left, but my question is...do we really want to pay top dollar for him? We probably wont be able to afford it anyway, but even if we clear enough space, is it worth investing that type of money in? Pretty evident that Brown is the go to guy now, and while Im a big Wallace fan, I just dont see him being worth top dollar in our current offense.

And while Im still not in favor of giving Mendy a big contract, the fact that Haley and even Ben seem to be looking at him more as a receiver, and the fact that Haley's running game is more complimentary to Mendy's running style than Arians offense was, Mendy may become the bigger priority.

Again...this isnt meant to argue against Wallace or even say I dont want to keep him, because I do.

My question is, is he worth top dollar TO US given our current offensive style?


I've answered this question both yes and no at various times over this past off season.

I guess, at this point, my answer is still equivocal. It depends on what top dollar means.

If he truly wants money in the Larry/Calvin/Andre range...he's out of his mind....and my answer is no.

If top dollar means a Pierre Garcon/Santonio Holmes like deal then my answer is yes. 20-25 guaranteed over a 5 year deal. Something in that range.

He is worth paying like a very good receiver but not a truly rare one. He has a unique skillset. He hasn't blown the doors off statistically so far this season but he does play a very important role in the offense...one that very few other receivers could play.

I'd have to prioritize him over Mendenhall for sure.

If TV money actually kicks in and the cap goes up, I think he's a no brainer signing in the range I mentioned. If it's flat and he comes at the expense of multiple spots than no, probably not.

Damn. I guess I'm still at the "maybe" stage in answering this question.
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SouthwestSteel


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an important and well-thought out thread.

IF Haley keeps the offense generally along the same short passing plays line that we have seen before, then the value of Wallace TO THIS TEAM goes down compared to last year. I personally hope Haley becomes a bit more diverse, with some plays set up specifically for Wallace. As both Wallace and Haley get more up to speed, the diversity in the options would help the offense IMO. Once in awhile go for a big strike.

But I suspect that Mendenhall will become a higher priority for the organization, especially if what we saw yesterday continues. He could become deadly as a receiver, and has a shiftiness and explosiveness that otherwise is lacking in our current running backs. Yes, I know that many teams have found excellent running backs in later rounds in the last several years, but until the Steelers do likewise, Mendy is a pretty important player to keep on the roster, while Wallace adds mostly blazing speed outside and little else, which may or may not be used by Haley. Time will tell . . .
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stillersenat


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, let's slow down before we judge. Too many judgments on where Wallace fits in the offense are being based on his numbers for being a deep threat only.

The big thing is what he does for DC adjustments. Haley's system is a numbers game which ticks off matchups and the final read being a dump-off to the RB. Wallace forces a double team which opens up things for everybody else. DCs have to adjust for the double team. We may be a shortER passing team than last year, but there is a whole lot more going on than just short vs. long patterns for Wallace to run.
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SouthwestSteel


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillersenat wrote:
OK, let's slow down before we judge. Too many judgments on where Wallace fits in the offense are being based on his numbers for being a deep threat only.

The big thing is what he does for DC adjustments. Haley's system is a numbers game which ticks off matchups and the final read being a dump-off to the RB. Wallace forces a double team which opens up things for everybody else. DCs have to adjust for the double team. We may be a shortER passing team than last year, but there is a whole lot more going on than just short vs. long patterns for Wallace to run.


This is an important point regarding double teams. I would have to watch the game again, and I didn't tape it, but subjectively I thought I saw Wallace not always being double-teamed yesterday, anybody know the figures for sure?

If Wallace is rarely thrown to the next few games and Brown remains the number one receiver, the number one target, I would guess that eventually DC's would put less of an emphasis on stopping Wallace. Which would then actually maybe make him a better target for Ben?
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stillersenat


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SouthwestSteel wrote:
stillersenat wrote:
OK, let's slow down before we judge. Too many judgments on where Wallace fits in the offense are being based on his numbers for being a deep threat only.

The big thing is what he does for DC adjustments. Haley's system is a numbers game which ticks off matchups and the final read being a dump-off to the RB. Wallace forces a double team which opens up things for everybody else. DCs have to adjust for the double team. We may be a shortER passing team than last year, but there is a whole lot more going on than just short vs. long patterns for Wallace to run.


This is an important point regarding double teams. I would have to watch the game again, and I didn't tape it, but subjectively I thought I saw Wallace not always being double-teamed yesterday, anybody know the figures for sure?

If Wallace is rarely thrown to the next few games and Brown remains the number one receiver, the number one target, I would guess that eventually DC's would put less of an emphasis on stopping Wallace. Which would then actually maybe make him a better target for Ben?


Well last game might not be the best indicator. You would have to check longer term. The Eagles are one of the few teams that have the CBs to go one on one most of the game.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillersenat wrote:
OK, let's slow down before we judge. Too many judgments on where Wallace fits in the offense are being based on his numbers for being a deep threat only.

The big thing is what he does for DC adjustments. Haley's system is a numbers game which ticks off matchups and the final read being a dump-off to the RB. Wallace forces a double team which opens up things for everybody else. DCs have to adjust for the double team. We may be a shortER passing team than last year, but there is a whole lot more going on than just short vs. long patterns for Wallace to run.


Thing is, Wallace isnt being double teamed as much as you might think. I cant see every play down the field, but Ive seen him covered well one on one more than Id like. Only 4 games...but still. Im not seeing Wallace blazing past anyone. Teams have learned how to play him more effectively IMO, and we seen that at the end of last season. Again, Im not saying he still isnt a great player, but unlike with Arians, I dont think he is the key piece he once was.

And in the end, it comes down to production. You dont pay top dollar to a guy for being a decoy.

This isnt a matter of judge Wallace or wanting to keep him. Im sure most of us would prefer to keep him. Nothing Ive seen thus far however makes me think we should be throwing top end money at him. In this offense, he is more of a luxury than a necessity. Again...not saying thats not a great luxury to have, but personally, I think a top shelf TE would be better for this offense than Wallace at the moment.

Bottom line...I want to keep him. But from what I seen thus far, I wouldnt be breaking the bank to keep him here.
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stillersenat


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
stillersenat wrote:
OK, let's slow down before we judge. Too many judgments on where Wallace fits in the offense are being based on his numbers for being a deep threat only.

The big thing is what he does for DC adjustments. Haley's system is a numbers game which ticks off matchups and the final read being a dump-off to the RB. Wallace forces a double team which opens up things for everybody else. DCs have to adjust for the double team. We may be a shortER passing team than last year, but there is a whole lot more going on than just short vs. long patterns for Wallace to run.


Thing is, Wallace isnt being double teamed as much as you might think. I cant see every play down the field, but Ive seen him covered well one on one more than Id like. Only 4 games...but still. Im not seeing Wallace blazing past anyone. Teams have learned how to play him more effectively IMO, and we seen that at the end of last season. Again, Im not saying he still isnt a great player, but unlike with Arians, I dont think he is the key piece he once was.

And in the end, it comes down to production. You dont pay top dollar to a guy for being a decoy.

This isnt a matter of judge Wallace or wanting to keep him. Im sure most of us would prefer to keep him. Nothing Ive seen thus far however makes me think we should be throwing top end money at him. In this offense, he is more of a luxury than a necessity. Again...not saying thats not a great luxury to have, but personally, I think a top shelf TE would be better for this offense than Wallace at the moment.

Bottom line...I want to keep him. But from what I seen thus far, I wouldnt be breaking the bank to keep him here.


I agree with your points, I'm just bringing it up to make sure everybody knows the whole picture. To me this has as much/more to do with the salary cap than value to the team. If he wants top end money, our cap won't allow for a big payday no matter what we want to do by way of creating cap room for him.
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Eaglehoc


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Wallace Reply with quote

Pay equals play. If Wallace becomes more productive then his salary negotiation can increase but not anywhere near Fitz etc. We can find other receivers in the draft that can fit the system. I haven't seen any of the speed burning this year. He seems disinterested at times. His routes do not look as crisp and fast and when he misses a catch it seems he is nonchalant about it. Maybe he feels the odd man out after coming in late with no contract and seeing AB continuing to do well. Plus, as was stated, I have seen more one on one coverage on him which shouldn't be happening. He can be an asset to the team or he can go thru the motions. If it is the latter, I would rather bring Cotchery in as long as he doesn't trip over himself anymore.
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Mike Wallace and Haley's offense Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
This isnt really meant to judge Mike Wallace's skills as a player, but more so his fit and role in this new offense.

Basically, Im not seeing it. Thats not to say he cant have success in this offense, but we rarely seem to attempt deep passes under Haley and Wallace's big play ability is going to waste.

Obviously, there are still 12 games left, but my question is...do we really want to pay top dollar for him? We probably wont be able to afford it anyway, but even if we clear enough space, is it worth investing that type of money in? Pretty evident that Brown is the go to guy now, and while Im a big Wallace fan, I just dont see him being worth top dollar in our current offense.

And while Im still not in favor of giving Mendy a big contract, the fact that Haley and even Ben seem to be looking at him more as a receiver, and the fact that Haley's running game is more complimentary to Mendy's running style than Arians offense was, Mendy may become the bigger priority.

Again...this isnt meant to argue against Wallace or even say I dont want to keep him, because I do.

My question is, is he worth top dollar TO US given our current offensive style?


It's been clear as day that without a running game the Steelers have not been able to establish realistic playaction... They've run it for like 5 total snaps in 4 games so far... Once the running game gets going the PA will re-enter the playbook which will provide Wallace a spark.
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C$!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And lets not forget, even though he stayed in shape he was out for all the camps and most of the pre season. There could still be rust on him.
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lionslicer


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we need to see a few more games. I'm not sure he's actually comfortable with the offense yet, and because of this, Haley might be giving him a smaller part on purpose.
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Gatoradus


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You WANT a guy who still being doubled-team and able to catch a ball. That's the guy you want and to be honestly...

When looking at Mike Wallace, you have to look at available players for next season which include draft class. My question would be pegged easily as; are any one of them capable of contributing more or much as Mike Wallace. Easiest answer would be no.

Which is why I would propose a contract with incentives.

He'd have to surpass specific amount of yardages catches, and TDs to make a bigger payday. He'd also have to accept whatever role Steelers offer him and if he declines, its him walking out of the door.

We did this with Tommy Maddox back in 2004) and it sure did worked out nicely.

For more information on Tommy Maddox, look up this website.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/06/steelers-rewind-looking-back-in-steelers-history-late-june-edition/

It's only 4 games and we have faced some really good cornerbacks so let's wait for 5 more games which will be against Titans, Bengals, Redskins, Giants, and Chiefs. we should be able to determine how good we are overall.
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Bobikus


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah let's see how the rest of the season looks first. This week was the only game so far where Wallace didn't score a TD.
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