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Drew_Carey
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Posts: 1478
Location: Seattle - Cleveland
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 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MalcolmBrown wrote: | If he wants to play, let him play, reduce his salary. He CAN catch the ball still. and he can still make tackles, literally the only guy I KNOW FOR SURE is on our special teams, except Phil. I think with the concussion, and his wife all upset, he may think about retiring. But I say offer him a clipboard and a ballcap. He's a Browns Legend. If he goes anywhere else to play ball, I will cry. I thought I might cry when I saw him unconcious, but I just tried not to look and smoke my cigarette. He needs to be a part of the organization because of what he has meant to the team, for always giving his all.
Second in my heart, only to Phil Dawson in the modern Browns era. |
This is what my father and many others have said as to why cribs should be on this team still.... He is (or least was) the heart of the team.
Hard to disagree with that... |
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NickZambo
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Pittsburgh Browns Backin'
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Drew_Carey wrote: | | MalcolmBrown wrote: | If he wants to play, let him play, reduce his salary. He CAN catch the ball still. and he can still make tackles, literally the only guy I KNOW FOR SURE is on our special teams, except Phil. I think with the concussion, and his wife all upset, he may think about retiring. But I say offer him a clipboard and a ballcap. He's a Browns Legend. If he goes anywhere else to play ball, I will cry. I thought I might cry when I saw him unconcious, but I just tried not to look and smoke my cigarette. He needs to be a part of the organization because of what he has meant to the team, for always giving his all.
Second in my heart, only to Phil Dawson in the modern Browns era. |
This is what my father and many others have said as to why cribs should be on this team still.... He is (or least was) the heart of the team.
Hard to disagree with that... |
I'll be honest, I went to Kent with Josh, he is a great guy. A great story, UDFA earned his way into the team, earned a new contract and he has been nothing but tough and gives his all. The NFL is a business and I hate to say it but I wouldn't offer him too much money when it comes to his next contract, matter of fact I would trade him if we aren't planning on resigning him and I will tell you why:
1. Is he a WR? No, he hasnt committed to becoming a quality starting NFL WR. Yes he "makes plays" on occasion but he isn't high on our WR depth chart for a reason. He has made 4 receptions for 39 yards in 5 games. Tell me who you would bench in favor of Cribbs out of: MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benji, Norwood.
2. The rule changes in the NFL have devalued the return man.
3. Furthermore, is his value on punt/kick returns worth more than Travis Benjamin? I would rather have the speed of Benjamin out there.
4. Right now, he is 29, he will be 30 before the beginning of next year. His return value will only deminish going forward.
Like I said, I love Josh and what he stands for. But it's one of those we-are-listening-to-our-hearts-over-our-head arguments at least for me.
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ditchdigger
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Drew_Carey wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | Drew_Carey wrote: | | Thomas5737 wrote: | | Drew_Carey wrote: | I said this somewhere else earlier, but Cribbs should have been traded a long time ago.
He is not a WR. He is a special teams player, and for him to be the "most explosive" on the team, shows how bad this team is. |
So logic says that since we lack exsplosive players, we should trade away one of them? |
My logic says trade Cribbs to another team in return for an explosive player that sees the field more than a couple times a game. |
In this alternate universe you've described, where Cribbs has trade value, what color is the sky? |
Now he has none to very little, which is why I originally used PAST TENSE in saying I wanted to trade him "a long time ago."
PRESENT TENSE was used describing my logic in my recent statement. |
Cribbs never had, does no currently, or will ever have, trade value.
Nobody trades for undrafted kick returners, no matter how many TDs they've scored.
Find me precedent of a team trading for an undrafted returner, and I'll gladly applaud you. I can save you some time, though: You won't. |
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Drew_Carey
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Posts: 1478
Location: Seattle - Cleveland
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ditchdigger wrote: | | Drew_Carey wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | Drew_Carey wrote: | | Thomas5737 wrote: | | Drew_Carey wrote: | I said this somewhere else earlier, but Cribbs should have been traded a long time ago.
He is not a WR. He is a special teams player, and for him to be the "most explosive" on the team, shows how bad this team is. |
So logic says that since we lack exsplosive players, we should trade away one of them? |
My logic says trade Cribbs to another team in return for an explosive player that sees the field more than a couple times a game. |
In this alternate universe you've described, where Cribbs has trade value, what color is the sky? |
Now he has none to very little, which is why I originally used PAST TENSE in saying I wanted to trade him "a long time ago."
PRESENT TENSE was used describing my logic in my recent statement. |
Cribbs never had, does no currently, or will ever have, trade value.
Nobody trades for undrafted kick returners, no matter how many TDs they've scored.
Find me precedent of a team trading for an undrafted returner, and I'll gladly applaud you. I can save you some time, though: You won't. |
I do not understand why you arguing this point, besides the fact that you could not distinguish between past tense and present tense??
Okay fine, you right. Cribbs is worthless.... Feel better? |
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ditchdigger
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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As far as trade value, he is and always has been worthless.
Your fantasy about trading him at any point in his career is equally worthless. |
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Estonianzulu
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 19770
Location: Middle of Nowhere VA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ditchdigger wrote: | | As far as trade value, he is and always has been worthless. |
You don't think we could have gotten some late round pick(s) for him in his prime?
I mean we got a draft pick out of David Sims and we traded Charlie Frye after that implosion against Pittsburgh. Teams will trade for something even a UDFA kick returner.
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LETSGOBROWNIES
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 6846
Location: CINCINNATI
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Estonianzulu wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | As far as trade value, he is and always has been worthless. |
You don't think we could have gotten some late round pick(s) for him in his prime?
I mean we got a draft pick out of David Sims and we traded Charlie Frye after that implosion against Pittsburgh. Teams will trade for something even a UDFA kick returner. |
I think he's referring to substantial (1st-3rd round) picks.
I'm sure someone would have offered up a late pick, but not too much.
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hornbybrown
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 12825
Location: dunedin new zealand
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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No one since we came back has played with more heart or passion than Josh Cribbs.
I would resign him for between 1.5 and 2 mil a year. He loves being a Brown and that will rub off on younger players.
I want this turned around while Josh and Phil are still here.
The way I see it we have two seasons to get these guys to the post season where they deserve to be.
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Ether
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1466
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| NickZambo wrote: |
I'll be honest, I went to Kent with Josh, he is a great guy. A great story, UDFA earned his way into the team, earned a new contract and he has been nothing but tough and gives his all. The NFL is a business and I hate to say it but I wouldn't offer him too much money when it comes to his next contract, matter of fact I would trade him if we aren't planning on resigning him and I will tell you why:
1. Is he a WR? No, he hasnt committed to becoming a quality starting NFL WR. Yes he "makes plays" on occasion but he isn't high on our WR depth chart for a reason. He has made 4 receptions for 39 yards in 5 games. Tell me who you would bench in favor of Cribbs out of: MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benji, Norwood.
2. The rule changes in the NFL have devalued the return man.
3. Furthermore, is his value on punt/kick returns worth more than Travis Benjamin? I would rather have the speed of Benjamin out there.
4. Right now, he is 29, he will be 30 before the beginning of next year. His return value will only deminish going forward.
Like I said, I love Josh and what he stands for. But it's one of those we-are-listening-to-our-hearts-over-our-head arguments at least for me. |
1. Gordon and Benji fairly easily from what they've shown us thus far. Maybe Norwood. Little doesn't really have a strong argument for him, there are times where I definitely wish Cribbs was in there instead of him. I think he could out produce or match Gordon and Benjamin stat-wise pretty easily if given the same number of snaps. Norwood is the toughest to judge just because he's also gotten on the field so inconsistently. I'm not gonna say Little because I can't knock the fact that he gets open, but I think Cribbs has much better hands. MoMass, Little, Cribbs would have probably been my top 3 pretty easily. I don't know, it seems like we aligned our WR depth chart more based on potential than actual production. I don't understand it.
2. Yeah I can't really argue with that.
3. Holy overreaction, and I don't mean just by you, but by pretty much everybody.
Josh Cribbs is 3rd in the NFL in kick return average, and the 2 guys ahead of him have half as many returns (9 instead of Cribb's 1 . He's 6th in the league in punt return average. There's nobody in the league that's coming anywhere close to matching his output on both kicks and punts, except maybe McKelvin on Buffalo although he's only had 6 kick returns and 7 punt returns.
For a second please stop comparing Cribbs to what he used to be instead of the rest of the returners in the league, he's better than the vast majority of them. I think he might've spoiled us earlier in his career.
If you think Benji has more to offer back there then you have some serious unprecedented faith in Travis Benjamin.
4. Well he's certainly not getting any faster, and he's definitely slowed down. I'm willing to wait until he's actually a liability back there though, instead of being upset that he's not unspeakably good.
This team needs veteran players, believe it or not. I seriously don't think letting Josh go helps us on the field, in the locker room, nor would it be popular among the fans. |
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Ether
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1466
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Actually I take that back about Cribb's being 3rd WR at worst, and that's only because of the fact he's playing so much special teams I wouldn't want to wear him out. If he was gassed up and ready to go however, I wouldn't even think twice about having him in there over Gordon and Benjamin if available.
He got all [inappropriate/removed] about playing offense last season though, so this might be partially self inflicted on his part. But I truly believe that he'd be more efficient than our rookies at this particular time. |
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NickZambo
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Pittsburgh Browns Backin'
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ether wrote: | | NickZambo wrote: |
I'll be honest, I went to Kent with Josh, he is a great guy. A great story, UDFA earned his way into the team, earned a new contract and he has been nothing but tough and gives his all. The NFL is a business and I hate to say it but I wouldn't offer him too much money when it comes to his next contract, matter of fact I would trade him if we aren't planning on resigning him and I will tell you why:
1. Is he a WR? No, he hasnt committed to becoming a quality starting NFL WR. Yes he "makes plays" on occasion but he isn't high on our WR depth chart for a reason. He has made 4 receptions for 39 yards in 5 games. Tell me who you would bench in favor of Cribbs out of: MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benji, Norwood.
2. The rule changes in the NFL have devalued the return man.
3. Furthermore, is his value on punt/kick returns worth more than Travis Benjamin? I would rather have the speed of Benjamin out there.
4. Right now, he is 29, he will be 30 before the beginning of next year. His return value will only deminish going forward.
Like I said, I love Josh and what he stands for. But it's one of those we-are-listening-to-our-hearts-over-our-head arguments at least for me. |
3. Holy overreaction, and I don't mean just by you, but by pretty much everybody.
Josh Cribbs is 3rd in the NFL in kick return average, and the 2 guys ahead of him have half as many returns (9 instead of Cribb's 1. He's 6th in the league in punt return average. There's nobody in the league that's coming anywhere close to matching his output on both kicks and punts, except maybe McKelvin on Buffalo although he's only had 6 kick returns and 7 punt returns.
For a second please stop comparing Cribbs to what he used to be instead of the rest of the returners in the league, he's better than the vast majority of them. I think he might've spoiled us earlier in his career.
If you think Benji has more to offer back there then you have some serious unprecedented faith in Travis Benjamin. |
You realize that Josh has led the league in kick return ATTEMPTS and is tied for fifth in punt return ATTEMPTS. His stats should be inflated b/c he is the only one returning kicks and he is returning a lot of them. (thanks defense)
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/kickReturns
I am not contesting that he does a great job with his opportunities (other than the 2 lost fumbles) but he should do well with all the opportunities he has had...
IMO, you look at guys like Randall Cobb in GB, a mid round speedy guy who returns kicks and works his way into becoming a major cog in the offense. Josh has been a return guy since 2005 and has neither worked his way into the starting lineup as a WR nor become a major cog in the offense.
At this point in his career, you will see his numbers start to decline. He isnt built for speed like McKelvin, Pat Pete or Hester, he is a bigger guy that is showing he cant stand up to the hits he subjects himself to anymore.
I am simply saying, right now he could perhaps return you a 4th or 5th rounder and then you could put Hardesty back there returning kicks b/c God knows Montario isn't doing anything but wasting roster space. But don't be surprised if he doesnt come back to CLE next season when we offer him significantly less money than did before he held out.
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Last edited by NickZambo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NickZambo
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Pittsburgh Browns Backin'
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ether wrote: | Actually I take that back about Cribb's being 3rd WR at worst, and that's only because of the fact he's playing so much special teams I wouldn't want to wear him out. If he was gassed up and ready to go however, I wouldn't even think twice about having him in there over Gordon and Benjamin if available.
He got all [inappropriate/removed] about playing offense last season though, so this might be partially self inflicted on his part. But I truly believe that he'd be more efficient than our rookies at this particular time. |
He isn't good enough to be out there as a starting WR or else he would be out there instead of MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benjamin, Norwood or anyone else we have on this "WR starved team". IMO, if he wanted to be a WR, he should have committed to it and shown progress over the past 5-7 years, except he hasn't. And if he has tried, he hasn't proven to anyone that he is good enough to be a WR. Hence him saying he is content to just being a return man.
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LETSGOBROWNIES
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 6846
Location: CINCINNATI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| hornbybrown wrote: | No one since we came back has played with more heart or passion than Josh Cribbs.
I would resign him for between 1.5 and 2 mil a year. He loves being a Brown and that will rub off on younger players.
I want this turned around while Josh and Phil are still here.
The way I see it we have two seasons to get these guys to the post season where they deserve to be. |
Well said.
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ditchdigger
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| NickZambo wrote: | | Ether wrote: | | NickZambo wrote: |
I'll be honest, I went to Kent with Josh, he is a great guy. A great story, UDFA earned his way into the team, earned a new contract and he has been nothing but tough and gives his all. The NFL is a business and I hate to say it but I wouldn't offer him too much money when it comes to his next contract, matter of fact I would trade him if we aren't planning on resigning him and I will tell you why:
1. Is he a WR? No, he hasnt committed to becoming a quality starting NFL WR. Yes he "makes plays" on occasion but he isn't high on our WR depth chart for a reason. He has made 4 receptions for 39 yards in 5 games. Tell me who you would bench in favor of Cribbs out of: MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benji, Norwood.
2. The rule changes in the NFL have devalued the return man.
3. Furthermore, is his value on punt/kick returns worth more than Travis Benjamin? I would rather have the speed of Benjamin out there.
4. Right now, he is 29, he will be 30 before the beginning of next year. His return value will only deminish going forward.
Like I said, I love Josh and what he stands for. But it's one of those we-are-listening-to-our-hearts-over-our-head arguments at least for me. |
3. Holy overreaction, and I don't mean just by you, but by pretty much everybody.
Josh Cribbs is 3rd in the NFL in kick return average, and the 2 guys ahead of him have half as many returns (9 instead of Cribb's 1. He's 6th in the league in punt return average. There's nobody in the league that's coming anywhere close to matching his output on both kicks and punts, except maybe McKelvin on Buffalo although he's only had 6 kick returns and 7 punt returns.
For a second please stop comparing Cribbs to what he used to be instead of the rest of the returners in the league, he's better than the vast majority of them. I think he might've spoiled us earlier in his career.
If you think Benji has more to offer back there then you have some serious unprecedented faith in Travis Benjamin. |
You realize that Josh has led the league in kick return ATTEMPTS and is tied for fifth in punt return ATTEMPTS. His stats should be inflated b/c he is the only one returning kicks and he is returning a lot of them. (thanks defense)
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/kickReturns
I am not contesting that he does a great job with his opportunities (other than the 2 lost fumbles) but he should do well with all the opportunities he has had...
IMO, you look at guys like Randall Cobb in GB, a mid round speedy guy who returns kicks and works his way into becoming a major cog in the offense. Josh has been a return guy since 2005 and has neither worked his way into the starting lineup as a WR nor become a major cog in the offense.
At this point in his career, you will see his numbers start to decline. He isnt built for speed like McKelvin, Pat Pete or Hester, he is a bigger guy that is showing he cant stand up to the hits he subjects himself to anymore.
I am simply saying, right now he could perhaps return you a 4th or 5th rounder and then you could put Hardesty back there returning kicks b/c God knows Montario isn't doing anything but wasting roster space. But don't be surprised if he doesnt come back to CLE next season when we offer him significantly less money than did before he held out. |
Cobb was a 2nd round pick. The Pack was lucky to get someone with speed and talent where they did, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that guys like him are available later in the draft.
There is no chance of even getting a 6th round pick for Cribbs, so please stop pretending he has trade value. A 4th? You must be joking. |
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ditchdigger
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Estonianzulu wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | As far as trade value, he is and always has been worthless. |
You don't think we could have gotten some late round pick(s) for him in his prime?
I mean we got a draft pick out of David Sims and we traded Charlie Frye after that implosion against Pittsburgh. Teams will trade for something even a UDFA kick returner. |
Doubtful. And why would we, even if he had value in his prime? Teams know the dropoff for returners is fast and steep. Better to draft your own and get full value of the pick.
Sims and Frye had positions. Cribbs plays some WR, but he's not a WR. |
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