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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember how bad Atlanta looked before they had one good offseason, got their QB and some other key pieces, and everything just came together. I remember this happening with the Bengals last year, and a whole lot of othet teams. I really think our team is in that situation. It's going to take an aggressive approach, but this team could turn it around next year. Whether we'll be able to do that, and have the right coaching staff, I'm not sure. But we have enough solid pieces that getting a top QB prospect, and a few other pieces can turn it around.
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Its A Sabotage


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok.
Even with Geno, how much better is this team?
No OL (save Monroe), no DL, weak LB corps, weak Secondary (save Cox if ever healthy), oh and no playmakers, with the same shotty Receivers.

1-3 wins? Great we pick 6-12 instead of a forsure top-10 pick and still miss a top flight blue chip prospect.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still feel like we are a QB away from being competitive, we have not had that luxury though
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
Ok.
Even with Geno, how much better is this team?
No OL (save Monroe), no DL, weak LB corps, weak Secondary (save Cox if ever healthy), oh and no playmakers, with the same shotty Receivers.

1-3 wins? Great we pick 6-12 instead of a forsure top-10 pick and still miss a top flight blue chip prospect.
We obviously need more than a QB, but a full offseason like what Atlanta had, where you come out of the draft with a Matt Ryan, a Sam Baker and a Curtis Lofton. And you supplement that with a Free Agency period where you get a Michael Turner and Tony Gonzalez type combo (both offensive players of some sort), and maybe a stopgap starter or two.

That team would be pretty good.

The question is can we trust Gene to be the one to pull that off.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
i still feel like we are a QB away from being competitive, we have not had that luxury though

I disagree big time.
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Mr. V


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Its A Sabotage wrote:
Ok.
Even with Geno, how much better is this team?
No OL (save Monroe), no DL, weak LB corps, weak Secondary (save Cox if ever healthy), oh and no playmakers, with the same shotty Receivers.

1-3 wins? Great we pick 6-12 instead of a forsure top-10 pick and still miss a top flight blue chip prospect.
We obviously need more than a QB, but a full offseason like what Atlanta had, where you come out of the draft with a Matt Ryan, a Sam Baker and a Curtis Lofton. And you supplement that with a Free Agency period where you get a Michael Turner and Tony Gonzalez type combo (both offensive players of some sort), and maybe a stopgap starter or two.

That team would be pretty good.

The question is can we trust Gene to be the one to pull that off.
'

No
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
Ok.
Even with Geno, how much better is this team?
No OL (save Monroe), no DL, weak LB corps, weak Secondary (save Cox if ever healthy), oh and no playmakers, with the same shotty Receivers.

1-3 wins? Great we pick 6-12 instead of a forsure top-10 pick and still miss a top flight blue chip prospect.


Yeah, i'm not really of the opinion that we're just a QB away from contention. Too many other holes right now.

For me, it's also complicated by the fact that i'm not completely enamoured with this QB class, in terms of the top-tier 1st round type guys. I know everyone is hopping on the Geno Smith bandwagon, but i'm still not completely on board that one. And for me, QB is a position where you go out and get the guy that you really want...not just using a very high pick to grab the 'best guy available'. I mean, the QB is going to be the guy you build around, the guy that goes a long way in defining your team's identity. If you're talking top-3 pick, i want a guy who is going to a)fit what you want your team to become, and b)be elite at the QB position, or at least very close. I'm not convinced any of the guys from this class will be that.

In that situation, i'd rather just go with someone else who will be elite at another important position.

Or...alternatively, look into various trade-back scenarios. If we're talking about a top-3 pick, there's the potential to haul in a kings ransom there. And i think that adding a half dozen+ top-end prospects from the first+high second round over the next couple years puts us a lot closer to the sort of incredible offseason ipwn is suggesting, as opposed to blowing a top-pick on the 'best guy available' in what looks like a potentially weak QB class. And then dunking the guy into a situation where he doesn't really have the weapons and protection to succeed.

I mean, just look at teams like the Bungles and Niners with their dramatic 'turnarounds'. Neither team spent their high pick on a QB. I think our best bet is to pick up potentially elite pieces at other positions of need, and either try to grab a QB with a lesser pick investment (ie. Dalton), or to just focus on adding pieces and try to make it work with what we have (ie. Alex Smith). The latter, probably meaning we bring in a mediocre vet stopgap, and a mid-later round developmental QB (ie. Kaepernick).


Of course, if you truly believe Geno Smith is going to be an elite QB in the NFL, then sure...i guess that makes sense too. I'm just not there yet. Nor have i decided just how unsalvageable the Gabbert thing is right now. Plenty of football left to figure that stuff out.
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Its A Sabotage


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Its A Sabotage wrote:
Ok.
Even with Geno, how much better is this team?
No OL (save Monroe), no DL, weak LB corps, weak Secondary (save Cox if ever healthy), oh and no playmakers, with the same shotty Receivers.

1-3 wins? Great we pick 6-12 instead of a forsure top-10 pick and still miss a top flight blue chip prospect.
We obviously need more than a QB, but a full offseason like what Atlanta had, where you come out of the draft with a Matt Ryan, a Sam Baker and a Curtis Lofton. And you supplement that with a Free Agency period where you get a Michael Turner and Tony Gonzalez type combo (both offensive players of some sort), and maybe a stopgap starter or two.

That team would be pretty good.

The question is can we trust Gene to be the one to pull that off.


But are there game-changing (let alone franchise changing) Offensive weapons coming out? Outside of Jennings, I don't think there is, and even he, isn't all that special. We have a player better than Turner already (though extremely unhappy). Also, do you trust Gene to find 3 capable starters later in draft? Because, I don't...not when you look at the previous years of finding "depth" in the late rounds..hell, he is having to cut those players now.

In the long run, you are going to have to overhaul his (Gene's) overhaul and find the same positions that were needs 4 years ago...QB, WR, TE, OT, OG, DE, DT, LB, CB, S.....In all honesty, there are 3 players I would keep on this team right now: Eugene Monroe, Justin Blackmon (only due to his age), and Derek Cox (but his health scares me). So, like I said earlier, you will have to overhaul the team once more...and with at least one, possibly more, weak-top half drafts and free agent classes, it will take more time, unless you find the magic forumla, like you keep refering to. (A QB isn't going to all of a sudden throw open all these Receivers and get us a new star runningback).
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Viewtiful Wade


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
I said only starters. You had already named 9 and I said I wouldn't count guys from this year (that's another 2-3) so that is about 15-16 out of 22 starters.

Again though, you're twisting everything around to play it into your anti-Gene schtick which you have been doing for four years.

I'm done with this conversation. If you're going to be disrespectful in addition to playing your usual cards (asking me if I comprehend your stance - REALLY?! this isn't even about love or hate for Gene - it's about the completely ludicrous idea that we should hit reset on EVERYTHING and that everything that has happened the past four years has been done by Satan and his demonic minions), it really isn't worth my time to continue on in this pointless matter.

I'll gladly debate people like IAS, DJ, or iPwn for days (which I have done before) because they actually present objective and respectful arguments. You've made it more than clear you can't offer that.


Lol you're just mad he was right about Gene Smith.
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KhanYouDigIt


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
The question is can we trust Gene to be the one to pull that off.


Lol, good one.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viewtiful Wade wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
I said only starters. You had already named 9 and I said I wouldn't count guys from this year (that's another 2-3) so that is about 15-16 out of 22 starters.

Again though, you're twisting everything around to play it into your anti-Gene schtick which you have been doing for four years.

I'm done with this conversation. If you're going to be disrespectful in addition to playing your usual cards (asking me if I comprehend your stance - REALLY?! this isn't even about love or hate for Gene - it's about the completely ludicrous idea that we should hit reset on EVERYTHING and that everything that has happened the past four years has been done by Satan and his demonic minions), it really isn't worth my time to continue on in this pointless matter.

I'll gladly debate people like IAS, DJ, or iPwn for days (which I have done before) because they actually present objective and respectful arguments. You've made it more than clear you can't offer that.


Lol you're just mad he was right about Gene Smith.


Explain why I have discussions with other users just fine about topics we disagree on.

Besides, I have said numerous times that this has nothing to do with Gene and even if it did, as I have said before, I am 100% okay with seeing him go if it is indeed the best option for this franchise at this point in time. I even said it in the post that you quoted that my comments in this thread have little to do with Gene.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
But are there game-changing (let alone franchise changing) Offensive weapons coming out? Outside of Jennings, I don't think there is, and even he, isn't all that special. We have a player better than Turner already (though extremely unhappy). Also, do you trust Gene to find 3 capable starters later in draft? Because, I don't...not when you look at the previous years of finding "depth" in the late rounds..hell, he is having to cut those players now.

In the long run, you are going to have to overhaul his (Gene's) overhaul and find the same positions that were needs 4 years ago...QB, WR, TE, OT, OG, DE, DT, LB, CB, S.....In all honesty, there are 3 players I would keep on this team right now: Eugene Monroe, Justin Blackmon (only due to his age), and Derek Cox (but his health scares me). So, like I said earlier, you will have to overhaul the team once more...and with at least one, possibly more, weak-top half drafts and free agent classes, it will take more time, unless you find the magic forumla, like you keep refering to. (A QB isn't going to all of a sudden throw open all these Receivers and get us a new star runningback).


I think there are several more guys worth keeping, but I don't want to continue to rehash that. And while I agree that the majority of those guys aren't great, I think they're good enough to be starting on a quality team.

There should be some good offensive players in free agency. The Steelers might not have the money for Mike Wallace after that deal they gave Antonio Brown. There should be some good o-linemen there too.

While a great QB isn't going to throw open receivers, a great receiver will open up things for the other guys. We got a glimpse of that last week (one of the few bright spots) when we took that shot deep to Shorts, the underneath stuff opened up a bit and players were running wide open until the Bears felt comfortable that we weren't going to take a shot and hurt the defense. If we get a QB who will consistently look downfield, a good-great downfield threat, and a couple o-linemen to give that QB some time, and Shorts, Blackmon and Lewis (or whoever we go with at TE) will get open a lot more too.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Its A Sabotage wrote:
But are there game-changing (let alone franchise changing) Offensive weapons coming out? Outside of Jennings, I don't think there is, and even he, isn't all that special. We have a player better than Turner already (though extremely unhappy). Also, do you trust Gene to find 3 capable starters later in draft? Because, I don't...not when you look at the previous years of finding "depth" in the late rounds..hell, he is having to cut those players now.

In the long run, you are going to have to overhaul his (Gene's) overhaul and find the same positions that were needs 4 years ago...QB, WR, TE, OT, OG, DE, DT, LB, CB, S.....In all honesty, there are 3 players I would keep on this team right now: Eugene Monroe, Justin Blackmon (only due to his age), and Derek Cox (but his health scares me). So, like I said earlier, you will have to overhaul the team once more...and with at least one, possibly more, weak-top half drafts and free agent classes, it will take more time, unless you find the magic forumla, like you keep refering to. (A QB isn't going to all of a sudden throw open all these Receivers and get us a new star runningback).


I think there are several more guys worth keeping, but I don't want to continue to rehash that. And while I agree that the majority of those guys aren't great, I think they're good enough to be starting on a quality team.

There should be some good offensive players in free agency. The Steelers might not have the money for Mike Wallace after that deal they gave Antonio Brown. There should be some good o-linemen there too.

While a great QB isn't going to throw open receivers, a great receiver will open up things for the other guys. We got a glimpse of that last week (one of the few bright spots) when we took that shot deep to Shorts, the underneath stuff opened up a bit and players were running wide open until the Bears felt comfortable that we weren't going to take a shot and hurt the defense. If we get a QB who will consistently look downfield, a good-great downfield threat, and a couple o-linemen to give that QB some time, and Shorts, Blackmon and Lewis (or whoever we go with at TE) will get open a lot more too.


There are certainly a good number of guys worth keeping, i absolutely agree there. Not exceptional players, but adequate starters. A deep, complete team needs those guys too.

But IAS is right, this team lacks playmakers...basically everywhere.

And to me, even talking about Mike Wallace seems a bit overly ambitious at this point. Even if the Steelers are foolish enough to not find a way to make the money fit with Wallace...he hits the market, and comes here why?

The guy is an outstanding player and exactly the sort of gamebreaker we need opposite Blackmon. But i just don't see how or why he'd land here.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
There are certainly a good number of guys worth keeping, i absolutely agree there. Not exceptional players, but adequate starters. A deep, complete team needs those guys too.

But IAS is right, this team lacks playmakers...basically everywhere.
I'll agree with this.

Quote:
And to me, even talking about Mike Wallace seems a bit overly ambitious at this point. Even if the Steelers are foolish enough to not find a way to make the money fit with Wallace...he hits the market, and comes here why?

The guy is an outstanding player and exactly the sort of gamebreaker we need opposite Blackmon. But i just don't see how or why he'd land here.
I'm not expecting him, I'm just saying that he could be the type of grab we could make.

And why would a player like him come here? The same reason Mario Williams went to Buffalo.



He wants elite player money, the Steelers don't want to give that to him, and we have the money to give it to him.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
There are certainly a good number of guys worth keeping, i absolutely agree there. Not exceptional players, but adequate starters. A deep, complete team needs those guys too.

But IAS is right, this team lacks playmakers...basically everywhere.
I'll agree with this.

Quote:
And to me, even talking about Mike Wallace seems a bit overly ambitious at this point. Even if the Steelers are foolish enough to not find a way to make the money fit with Wallace...he hits the market, and comes here why?

The guy is an outstanding player and exactly the sort of gamebreaker we need opposite Blackmon. But i just don't see how or why he'd land here.
I'm not expecting him, I'm just saying that he could be the type of grab we could make.

And why would a player like him come here? The same reason Mario Williams went to Buffalo.



He wants elite player money, the Steelers don't want to give that to him, and we have the money to give it to him.


I suppose anything is possible, but while Wallace is probably going to be looking for big money, i still think there will be a ton of teams in on him even at a very high pricetag. Even at true #1 money, he'll have suitors all over the place. And while i like him a ton as a player and he's what we need...he isn't a true, complete #1WR. It would be fine for us because we have Blackmon as the #1b guy to Wallace as a #1a. But at best, we'll have a rookie completely unproven QB and a nice history of being a terrible horrible no good passing team. What FA WR is going to choose us over other suitors with more capable QBs/passing games in general?

The only way i see it, is to throw absolutely silly money at him...and honestly, do we want a guy like that? Is that really the way to build a team? FA is a crucial part of building a team, and sometimes you might have to hand over a little bit of extra dough to get the guy you're after...but to get Wallace here, sounds like something of a pipe dream, or cap suicide move...depending on how things play out.
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