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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
If they went Mingo in the draft i would like the pick. My preference still remains oline.

Of the two options I brought up before:

Option 1:

Round 1: Taylor Lewan, OT, Michigan
Round 2: Cornellius Carradine, DE/OLB, Florida State
Round 3: Alvin Bailey, OG, Arkansas

Option 2:

Round 1: Barkevious Mingo, OLB, LSU
Round 2: Oday Aboushi, OT, Virginia
Round 3: Alvin Bailey, OG, Arkansas

Would anybody be opposed to one of those Options?


In one you draft a DE who does not have the fluidity, experience or awareness to play in coverage as he will be required to in our 34 defense and in the other you have a pass rusher who while off the charts athletically is technically poor and cannot hold up in the run game.

I would be opposed to both of these options based on the fact that each one wastes one of our likely top 50 selections.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
If they went Mingo in the draft i would like the pick.


Why? I mean, I've poured over the tape this past hour. I watched 16 full minutes and saw 2 pressures. 2, 1 of which should have been a sack but Aaron Murray slipped him. He should be destroying people in this wide 9 and something else, this wide 9 hasn't been run by LSU in the past that I can recall. I think Miles put it in specifically for Mingo, to take advantage of his incredible speed. For him to be in this system and be this unproductive is frightening to me. I kinda wish I never saw the film from that link, in all honesty.
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younggun1273


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Mingo the next Vernon Gholston?
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AZPSquared


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mingo is still lined up as a DE with his hand in the dirt. He doesnt have the size to do that. He has the prototypical size of a 3-4 OLB who can rush the passer and drop into coverage when needed.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

younggun1273 wrote:
Is Mingo the next Vernon Gholston?


He's the college version, at the very least. Seriously, he should be destroying guys in this wide 9. How he could lineup in a wide 9 over slow footed DJ Fluker and get no pressure is baffling to me. 3 sacks and 4 TFL this season in a wide 9. That's really hard to explain.
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apollo14000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

younggun1273 wrote:
Is Mingo the next Vernon Gholston?


I wouldn't say that. I think he could be a Bruce Irvin type of player who, if used correctly, can rack up a lot of sacks. He's not going to be an all round player for awhile like Irvin.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
Mingo is still lined up as a DE with his hand in the dirt. He doesnt have the size to do that. He has the prototypical size of a 3-4 OLB who can rush the passer and drop into coverage when needed.


I'm sorry but the tape does not support this. It's a wide 9 on about 30 plays that I counted. That makes his size nearly irrelevant. That's the whole point of a wide 9, to promote speed. In a wide 9, hand usage and athleticism will get you double digit sacks without breaking a sweat. Those are the numbers he SHOULD have. Saying he's in a system that doesn't work for him simply isn't supported by what the tape shows, I'm sorry.


Last edited by stchamp98 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apollo14000 wrote:
younggun1273 wrote:
Is Mingo the next Vernon Gholston?


I wouldn't say that. I think he could be a Bruce Irvin type of player who, if used correctly, can rack up a lot of sacks. He's not going to be an all round player for awhile like Irvin.


He's exactly like an Irvin, who is used as an elephant on the majority of his snaps. Unfortunately, that's not what we do. We eliminated that elephant/predator role before Billy Davis got here. Horton runs nothing along those lines.
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AZPSquared


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't compare him to Bruce Irvin who was taken as a reach. Before the draft Irvin was a mid-2nd to 3rd rounder, but never a 1st rounder. Mingo is considered everywhere to be not only a 1st rounder but a top 10 pick.

Scouts Inc grade: 94

Pass Rush Skills:

Elite suddenness for the position (see: 2011 SEC title game vs. UGA - 7:18 2nd QTR). Explosive first step. Shows very good quickness, agility and change-of-direction skills for his size. Vast majority of his sack production in 2011 came against SEC competition (7 of 8 sacks). Has very good range on DL stunts. Has quick hands. Needs to learn how to use his hands more effectively and have a plan as a pass rusher. But has long arms, explosive movement skills and better core strength than frame indicates. Occasionally shows ability to get OT off balance with power, but now he needs to learn how to capitalize on it. Should only continue to improve power with more time in weight room. Shows adequate awareness as a pass rusher. Gets his long arms up in time to disrupt QB's passing window and occasionally bat down a pass. Arrives at the QB out of control at times. Will fail to finish on occasion.

Versus the run:

At his best when turned loose up the field. Makes many plays in backside pursuit down the line. Has great range vs. the run for the DE position. Closes quickly and flashes power at the point of attack when he times up his hits. Leaves feet too often as a tackler, though. Is lean, needs to add bulk to frame and get stronger. Pads often rise when he's stuck in phone booth battle and he loses power. Struggles to anchor when opponent runs at him. Will be late diagnosing run too often. OTs frequently use his momentum to escort him up the field and out of the play.

Versatility:

Shows fluid hips for size. Absolutely capable of making move to OLB in the NFL. Recognition skills and awareness in space will need to improve.

Instincts/Motor:

Has never been a fulltime starter. Plays in a heavy rotation so rarely is exhausted on the field. But don't see him taking plays off on tape. Will make some effort plays in pursuit. Not afraid to mix it up and flashes a mean streak but not a classic tough guy either.

Also statistics don't tell the full story. McShay pointed out that although his stats have not been showy, he was played some great games.
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apollo14000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
Don't compare him to Bruce Irvin who was taken as a reach. Before the draft Irvin was a mid-2nd to 3rd rounder, but never a 1st rounder. Mingo is considered everywhere to be not only a 1st rounder but a top 10 pick.


You didn't convince me. He's still like Bruce Irvin. Undersized but very fast and athletic. Very raw player. Where Irvin was projected to go, compared to Mingo, and where he went is irrelevant. Mingo was considered to be a top 10 pick and that means what? Logan Thomas was projected to be the #1 pick too. That's what happens when raw players with an abundance of athleticism and potential go into what many think to be their final season. They are only projected to go that high because you naturally expect improvement. Logan Thomas has done the opposite. So has Mingo. They haven't improved.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. He compares very well to Bruce Irvin, like it or not. Their games are ridiculously similiar.
2. Statistics don't tell the story but game tape does. I just watched a whole heap of it. The link has been provided if you want to do the same.
3. McShay's pointing out a game against MS State. I ask McShay and anyone else, where was that great play against Texas A&M? Can't beat Jake Matthews, you can't beat legitimate NFL tackles. Where was he against Bama? Can't beat DJ Fluker, you may as well just quit now. That's what Mingo is and I'm sorry if that bothers anyone but the facts are the facts. He racks up some pressures and sacks against teams like Towson and weak tackles from low end SEC teams but when real talent lines up across him he disappears despite being in a system that is tailor made for him. Actually you know what, disregard this whole post, just answer me this 1 question. When he's lined up across from a legitimately good tackle, how many plays has he made this season? The answer will pretty much end this debate.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
Versus the run:

At his best when turned loose up the field. Makes many plays in backside pursuit down the line. Has great range vs. the run for the DE position. Closes quickly and flashes power at the point of attack when he times up his hits. Leaves feet too often as a tackler, though. Is lean, needs to add bulk to frame and get stronger. Pads often rise when he's stuck in phone booth battle and he loses power. Struggles to anchor when opponent runs at him. Will be late diagnosing run too often. OTs frequently use his momentum to escort him up the field and out of the play.


LOLTodd McShay

But I will bite;

This, this is just a nice way of saying the only thing he can do is play downhill undisciplined football. Ask him to play a gap or an assignemtn and you get nothing out of him. Ask him to seal the edge and you get pursuit.

Terrible run defender. Similar in some ways to Darnell Dockett was early on in his career, and how he has reverted to over the past 4 odd games. Trying too hard to make the play himself not worrying about who he leaves out to dry behind him by abandoning his assignment.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
Don't compare him to Bruce Irvin who was taken as a reach. Before the draft Irvin was a mid-2nd to 3rd rounder, but never a 1st rounder. Mingo is considered everywhere to be not only a 1st rounder but a top 10 pick.


Thing with this is, that this is exactly what I saw in Irvin and exactly what I am seeing with Mingo.

Issue is half of the time Irvin was playing in a three point stance as a defensive end in a 3 man front. You want to talk about playing out of position schematically, try using a 6-2 245 pound speed demon as a 5 tech.
Mingo is being asked to the the 7 tech and the 9 tech. Both positions a player with his athleticism should be able to win a lot of battles on the collegiate level. He is not doing that with enough consistency. This comes back to his technique or lacktherof. Poor hand use, no pass rush moves, just athleticism.

He is going to get drafted highly and coached because the upside is huge. But one thing you really don't want him doing is playing in a defense that requires discipline and integrity in the running game. And ours relies heavily on that.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An intriguing guy is Bjoern Werner. DJ would have to shed some light on him beings as he's a die hard fan but watching his tape, he's an interesting guy. Non-stop motor, off the charts work ethic. Looks crazy good off the edge.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This doesn't mean ANYTHING here in November BUT, what for it's worth, Rob Rang has us picking 14th overall and selecting Taylor Lewan, OT Michigan.
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