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Warpticon


Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 1520
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could take or leave Starks. He's a valuable piece, and I'd be happy to have him back, but losing him would be sacrificing from a position of strength. If that money is better served applied to a true weakness, then lets go that way.
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ajiggel72


Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is not a joke. Here me out- I'm not saying trade,trade,trade. I'm saying if we do not think we can retain S.Smith next yr, his value is probably as high as it will ever be right now. Why not get what we can for him now, before he walks away for free?

As for trading Long... I love him as a player and value him as an elite player, but I also see him as a luxury. I know this is debatable but a team contending for the superbowl, who has o-line issues and an injury prone QB will pay high-dollar. Not to mention a head coach who is on the hot seat. A first and a 4th would provide cheaper, alternatives and allow money to be spent else where. That being said, I would not be against keeping long- it all depends on his salary demands. The fact we havent resigned him yet makes me think he is demanding a lot. He has already made a ton in Miami, if he is a true leader he will take a bit of a pay cut to stay with his team and I would be happy to have him.

I asked if it was a joke because none of it makes any sense.

Trading Sean Smith? Why? How? He's an above average corner in a secondary that needs more above average players. He's a free agent after this season, so you won't get fair value for him anyway since there's no team control beyond this year. And mid-season football trades are rare as it is. Also, where on earth did you pull that "heart on the west coast" silliness from?

You are vastly overestimating the kind of return you would get for Long, considering it's midseason, he's a free agent after this year, and you'd be selling low since he hasn't had a great season so far. And then you would be leaving a gaping hole at left tackle on a team starting a rookie quarterback.

I have no idea what cavity you pulled "Bush isn't looking for a huge payday" from, but I can assure you, 10 million over 3 years would not get it done. That kind of offer is an insult. The man gives you the two best seasons of his career, and on what is likely his last big contract, you give him a 40% pay cut on a contract offer that is 2-3 times below market value? You might as well spit in his face at that point.

it seriously reads like you're just making up stuff to troll. I'm questioning myself for even responding even now.


Do you know S.Smith? Have you ever met him? I have met him and he told me, "Miami is nice but in a perfect world i'd be closer to home, its just to far away." Thats where I get that 'silliness' from. Also, a player can agree to an extension before being traded, ala Reggie Bush did with us 2 years ago. He is going to want to get PAID! If he doesn't make sense for 2013 cut bait and see what a desperate team will do. GB is 2-2 and pass D has been bad a 3rd and a 5th for an above average CB is a good deal.

Long is paraded as the 2nd best LT in football- desperate teams make desperate moves. Philly may be desperate. Philly's biggest weakness is LT, someone once gave us a 2nd for C.Chambers and yet you find it hard to believe Long could garner a 1st and 4th midseason. Obviously I'm not to worried about a hole at LT. Philbin is an o-line man, he can figure out a temporary fix.

As for Bush- Bush is not a 'me' kind of guy. Bush took 6.8 milion dollar pay cut a year when he was traded to us. 10 million for 3 yrs may be a little low but Darren Sproles signed a 4 year 14 million dollar contract to replace Bush in NO. That is only about $200,000 a year difference. Bush makes more money in sponsorships deals a year than he does in NFL salary, anyways. He has always been a 'team guy' and he appreciate the opportunity Miami has given him. I see him signing a 3 year deal but for how much? When you say the 3.3 mill a year I offered is 2-3 times below market value thats just not true. Just two times that would give him 6.6 million a year. You know Arian Foster makes 5 mill a year right? MJD makes 5.5 a year. I Any good RB not named Adrian Peterson makes at most 5 million a season. I gave him 3.3 per season, he is currently making 4.5 a season. I would settle for a 3 yr. 12.5 million dollar extension. But it's not like I am way off base here. Maybe a 2 year 8.5 million dollar contract works better for you.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajiggel72 wrote:
Quote:
It is not a joke. Here me out- I'm not saying trade,trade,trade. I'm saying if we do not think we can retain S.Smith next yr, his value is probably as high as it will ever be right now. Why not get what we can for him now, before he walks away for free?

As for trading Long... I love him as a player and value him as an elite player, but I also see him as a luxury. I know this is debatable but a team contending for the superbowl, who has o-line issues and an injury prone QB will pay high-dollar. Not to mention a head coach who is on the hot seat. A first and a 4th would provide cheaper, alternatives and allow money to be spent else where. That being said, I would not be against keeping long- it all depends on his salary demands. The fact we havent resigned him yet makes me think he is demanding a lot. He has already made a ton in Miami, if he is a true leader he will take a bit of a pay cut to stay with his team and I would be happy to have him.

I asked if it was a joke because none of it makes any sense.

Trading Sean Smith? Why? How? He's an above average corner in a secondary that needs more above average players. He's a free agent after this season, so you won't get fair value for him anyway since there's no team control beyond this year. And mid-season football trades are rare as it is. Also, where on earth did you pull that "heart on the west coast" silliness from?

You are vastly overestimating the kind of return you would get for Long, considering it's midseason, he's a free agent after this year, and you'd be selling low since he hasn't had a great season so far. And then you would be leaving a gaping hole at left tackle on a team starting a rookie quarterback.

I have no idea what cavity you pulled "Bush isn't looking for a huge payday" from, but I can assure you, 10 million over 3 years would not get it done. That kind of offer is an insult. The man gives you the two best seasons of his career, and on what is likely his last big contract, you give him a 40% pay cut on a contract offer that is 2-3 times below market value? You might as well spit in his face at that point.

it seriously reads like you're just making up stuff to troll. I'm questioning myself for even responding even now.


Do you know S.Smith? Have you ever met him? I have met him and he told me, "Miami is nice but in a perfect world i'd be closer to home, its just to far away." Thats where I get that 'silliness' from. Also, a player can agree to an extension before being traded, ala Reggie Bush did with us 2 years ago. He is going to want to get PAID! If he doesn't make sense for 2013 cut bait and see what a desperate team will do. GB is 2-2 and pass D has been bad a 3rd and a 5th for an above average CB is a good deal.

Long is paraded as the 2nd best LT in football- desperate teams make desperate moves. Philly may be desperate. Philly's biggest weakness is LT, someone once gave us a 2nd for C.Chambers and yet you find it hard to believe Long could garner a 1st and 4th midseason. Obviously I'm not to worried about a hole at LT. Philbin is an o-line man, he can figure out a temporary fix.

As for Bush- Bush is not a 'me' kind of guy. Bush took 6.8 milion dollar pay cut a year when he was traded to us. 10 million for 3 yrs may be a little low but Darren Sproles signed a 4 year 14 million dollar contract to replace Bush in NO. That is only about $200,000 a year difference. Bush makes more money in sponsorships deals a year than he does in NFL salary, anyways. He has always been a 'team guy' and he appreciate the opportunity Miami has given him. I see him signing a 3 year deal but for how much? When you say the 3.3 mill a year I offered is 2-3 times below market value thats just not true. Just two times that would give him 6.6 million a year. You know Arian Foster makes 5 mill a year right? MJD makes 5.5 a year. I Any good RB not named Adrian Peterson makes at most 5 million a season. I gave him 3.3 per season, he is currently making 4.5 a season. I would settle for a 3 yr. 12.5 million dollar extension. But it's not like I am way off base here. Maybe a 2 year 8.5 million dollar contract works better for you.
Quote:




Sean Smith is part of a secondary that is not performing well which should tell you everything you need to know about how badly we need to hold onto Sean Smith. Even the better performers, Smith and Jones, are over-rated in Miami. To other teams they are not far (if at all) above average.

It's amazing to me how the most 'valuable' guys in football are always those on a bad unit, usually on a bad team. Just saying his name and recognizing his face as a fan doesn't mean he's the future of this franchise. Don't mistake familiarity with respect! He makes enough costly mistakes that replacing him would be easier than some wish to believe and thus we must consider moving him if the price is right.

And it probably will not be so Sean Smith fans don't get upset.

At times he's played well but at CB I simply want consistency, not elite ability. That's fun to flirt with but it's unreliable. The problem with Vontae Davis was that he never provided consistency. I don't see why we can't make a somewhat similar argument concerning Sean Smith, especially considering that his limited upside is actually creating a false sense of consistency. His best days, such as last Sunday, still provide us plenty to shake our heads at and a few plays which inevitably contribute to our losing. Despite his 2 INTs on Sunday he is notoriously bad at getting his hands on the ball.

So much as I can tell, Sean Smith is smart; maybe very smart. I'd love to have a conversation with him because he's able to communicate well and therefore obviously thinks well and understands his role.

However, besides being a large human being, I don't think he's equipped to be an elite CB. Above average will be his high-water mark and quite frankly he's struggled to prove thus far that he can stay there. Too often he's given up big plays down the sideline or been hurt by his limited agility which is the downfall of his size.

If he can prove this season that he's going to regularly be above-average I respect him too much not to want him back. I like smart people and Sean Smith is smart people. Right now, his future is cloudy though.
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Warpticon


Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 1520
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajiggel72 wrote:
As for Bush- Bush is not a 'me' kind of guy. Bush took 6.8 milion dollar pay cut a year when he was traded to us. 10 million for 3 yrs may be a little low but Darren Sproles signed a 4 year 14 million dollar contract to replace Bush in NO. That is only about $200,000 a year difference. Bush makes more money in sponsorships deals a year than he does in NFL salary, anyways. He has always been a 'team guy' and he appreciate the opportunity Miami has given him. I see him signing a 3 year deal but for how much? When you say the 3.3 mill a year I offered is 2-3 times below market value thats just not true. Just two times that would give him 6.6 million a year. You know Arian Foster makes 5 mill a year right? MJD makes 5.5 a year. I Any good RB not named Adrian Peterson makes at most 5 million a season. I gave him 3.3 per season, he is currently making 4.5 a season. I would settle for a 3 yr. 12.5 million dollar extension. But it's not like I am way off base here. Maybe a 2 year 8.5 million dollar contract works better for you.


I'm not sure where you are pulling these number from, but they're all horribly wrong. Maybe you're looking at per year base salaries and don't realize that player contracts also include guaranteed money in the form of signing bonuses. That's the best I can come up with. In any case, you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base. Arian Foster makes over 8 million per year. Frank Gore makes 7. Deangelo Williams makes 8. Jonathan Stewart makes 7. Chris Johnson gets 9. Marshawn Lynch makes 7+. Matt Forte makes 7+. MJD makes 6, and he held out for a new contract. What does that tell you? The only productive backs getting numbers like you're talking about outside of rookie contracts are either role players (Sproles), or on the wrong side of 30 (Fred Jackson). You don't need to be a "me" person to be insulted when a team rewards you for consecutive career years with a pay cut and a contract that is 2-3 times below market for a feature back in his last big contract opportunity. If a job I had asked me to take a pay cut while i had elevated my performance, I'd tell them where to shove it, o matter how much I liked the job.
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Warpticon


Joined: 21 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like the Dolphins are in the preliminary stages of negotiating a long term deal with Hartline.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5553
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Free agents Reply with quote

ojmcduff wrote:
Which free agents do you see in another jersey next year?
Long
Starks
Bush
Hartline
Clemons
Smith


If I'm GM the only Dolphins on this list I would retain are Starks, Hartline and SMith.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the following would be cool to pass along to the rest of the forum.

HERE is a list of NFL free agents by position.

And below is a breakdown of the type of team they would be coming from.


Team Base Defense Blocking Scheme

Arizona 3 - 4 MBS w/some ZBS plays
Atlanta 4 - 3 Flex (Depends on play))
Baltimore 3 - 4 MBS
Buffalo 4 - 3 Hybrid ZBS/MBS
Carolina 4 - 3 ZBS
Chicago 4 - 3 Man Blocking
Cincinnati 4 - 3 w/3-4 pkg MBS (w/some ZBS)
Cleveland 4 - 3 ZBS
Dallas 3 - 4 MBS
Denver 4 - 3 Blocking
Detroit 4 - 3 MBS
Green Bay 3 - 4 ZBS
Houston 3 - 4 ZBS
Indianapolis 3 - 4 ZBS
Jacksonville 4 - 3 MBS
Kansas City 3 - 4 ZBS
Miami 4 - 3 ZBS
Minnesota 4 - 3 ZBS
New England 3 - 4 MBS
New Orleans 4 - 3 FLEX
NY Giants 4 - 3 ZBS/Flex
NY Jets 3 - 4 ZBS
Oakland 4 - 3 MBS
Philadelphia 4 - 3 MAn Blocking
Pittsburgh 3 - 4 MBS (ZBS for passing)
San Diego 3 - 4 FLEX
San Francisco 3 - 4 FLEX
Seattle 4 - 3 ZBS
St Louis 4 - 3 MBS
Tampa Bay 4 - 3 MBS
Tennessee 4 - 3 ZBS
Washington 3 - 4 ZBS
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
I thought the following would be cool to pass along to the rest of the forum.

HERE is a list of NFL free agents by position.

And below is a breakdown of the type of team they would be coming from.


Team Base Defense Blocking Scheme

Arizona 3 - 4 MBS w/some ZBS plays
Atlanta 4 - 3 Flex (Depends on play))
Baltimore 3 - 4 MBS
Buffalo 4 - 3 Hybrid ZBS/MBS
Carolina 4 - 3 ZBS
Chicago 4 - 3 Man Blocking
Cincinnati 4 - 3 w/3-4 pkg MBS (w/some ZBS)
Cleveland 4 - 3 ZBS
Dallas 3 - 4 MBS
Denver 4 - 3 Blocking
Detroit 4 - 3 MBS
Green Bay 3 - 4 ZBS
Houston 3 - 4 ZBS
Indianapolis 3 - 4 ZBS
Jacksonville 4 - 3 MBS
Kansas City 3 - 4 ZBS
Miami 4 - 3 ZBS
Minnesota 4 - 3 ZBS
New England 3 - 4 MBS
New Orleans 4 - 3 FLEX
NY Giants 4 - 3 ZBS/Flex
NY Jets 3 - 4 ZBS
Oakland 4 - 3 MBS
Philadelphia 4 - 3 MAn Blocking
Pittsburgh 3 - 4 MBS (ZBS for passing)
San Diego 3 - 4 FLEX
San Francisco 3 - 4 FLEX
Seattle 4 - 3 ZBS
St Louis 4 - 3 MBS
Tampa Bay 4 - 3 MBS
Tennessee 4 - 3 ZBS
Washington 3 - 4 ZBS



Great info! Smile

What's shocking is that if you look through the various names at each position in free agency (OL, WR, RB, TE, Def), there's not a lot out there. The options are slim and it's easy to see why free agency doesn't build teams.

I wouldn't expect the Dolphins to do anything shocking. A few aging vets are sprinkled in here and there but no young players with any consistency are available aside from Victor Cruz and maybe a couple others.

That list of FA O-linemen has a lot of recognizable names. Some are decent players, many of whom will be resigned by their respective teams, while many are as bad as what we have now.

My first impulse is to say that with such a scarcity of reliable talent we'd better appreciate what we have in Jake Long. Conversely, that might drive up the number of potential trade partners in a 'tag-and-trade' type of scenario.


What would we get in return if we tagged Jake Long? Is that a set thing or is that up to us? I remember when the Patriots tagged Matt Cassel. Didn't the Chiefs give them a couple 1st rounders for him? Is that a mandated thing or simply what the Chiefs were willing to give?

As I see it we have 4 options:

1) Trade Jake Long before the deadline for something like a 3rd round pick.
2) Lose Jake Long to free agency after the season ends.
3) ag Jake Long and trade him to a willing partner.
4) Re-sign Jake Long for the next 5 years.

I think we'll either re-sign Jake Long or simply tag him through next year whether we trade him or not. I see no reason why we should simply let him walk. His production next year would be valuable even as a "franchised player." At least then we could replace Incognito next year and delay the drafting of a new tackle until April, 2014.
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bpastermack


Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 12930
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ramses Barden wouldn't be a bad pickup. He could be that Red Zone threat, possession guy for Miami. A guy who could get us 800 yards and 8 TD's. Then all we would need is a mismatch at TE and or a Speedy WR and we would be set.

Take that and Middleton from Jacksonville at CB would be a solid offseason leading up to the draft in my opinion. Of course that assumes we retain our own good Free Agents as well.
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pope137


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 824
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishfan4life wrote:
Somebody above hit the nail on the head and what i have been thinking on randy starks, He is good and someone i like but with langford getting 4.5 mil starks he may get 5 or 5.5 and truth is Odrick needs to be inside and we could use that money for a pass rushing DE. No knock on starks whatsoever.


I just wanna point out that Starks is rated the #1 dt right now by pff.

I'd rather keep Starks then long fwiw
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pope137


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly why not just resign them all and add by the draft? That's what GB and the colts and chargers did for all those years. Signing one or two role playing guys each year.

If I had a say so resign them all except Clemons.
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fishfan4life


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1892
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ramses barden would be a nice rotational guy with upside who is a redzone threat. My number 1 target is LG andy levtrie from the bills He is young light and athletic. I would also just be stoaked if we signed our top free agents and used the extra draft picks well.
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