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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
If McClain is worrying you Tyvon Branch and Philip Wheeler must have you petrified.


Petrified.........Branch at least has played pretty well in the last couple of years and i think Wheeler has been a positive, albeit he has made some rash decisions and mistakes. McClain hasn't really shown anything to suggest he will come good and looks liek another 1st round flop.

Do you not see any positives in Wheeler and Branch??



I think they are on a level with McClain. Average players who I think would be capable of better if they had better players around them. On their own they are nothing special at all. I'll take up Holyghosts line about impact plays and game-changing plays. Branch has 3 career Ints and 6 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in his career so far. Wheeler in the same time has 0 Ints and 2 sacks in his career, 4 forced fumbles make up a bit for that. None of these players are impact players, yet one gets it in the neck for not being an impact players because someone thought he was a 1st round 4-3 MLB.

Branch and Wheeler both get routinely burnt in coverage. Even in that clip you showed both players make some poor decision(really poor on Branch's part) but instead McClain is the one you decided to point out in the play.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
If McClain is worrying you Tyvon Branch and Philip Wheeler must have you petrified.


Petrified.........Branch at least has played pretty well in the last couple of years and i think Wheeler has been a positive, albeit he has made some rash decisions and mistakes. McClain hasn't really shown anything to suggest he will come good and looks liek another 1st round flop.

Do you not see any positives in Wheeler and Branch??



I think they are on a level with McClain. Average players who I think would be capable of better if they had better players around them. On their own they are nothing special at all. I'll take up Holyghosts line about impact plays and game-changing plays. Branch has 3 career Ints and 6 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in his career so far. Wheeler in the same time has 0 Ints and 2 sacks in his career, 4 forced fumbles make up a bit for that. None of these players are impact players, yet one gets it in the neck for not being an impact players because someone thought he was a 1st round 4-3 MLB.

Branch and Wheeler both get routinely burnt in coverage. Even in that clip you showed both players make some poor decision(really poor on Branch's part) but instead McClain is the one you decided to point out in the play.


I respectfully disagree, I think Branch and Wheeler are solid while McClain is below average and while Wheeler and Branch clearly (in my eyes) have good potential, McClain looks lost. Not every player on the side can or will be an impact player. Some guys just need to do their job (which i think Wheeler and Branch are to a decent level) whilst a MLB needs to command the defence.

I'm not blaming McClain solely for the big play, just saying that I expected him to be a solid contributor, maybe not a superstar but he looks to me slow in speed and thought and is a weak link at present. Wheeler and Branch are IMO not weak links just two guys playing pretty well who can (as you alluded to) flourish with better players surrounding them, particularly if we had someone like Biekert at MLB and a pass rushing DE.

Multiple players take the blame for the Bush TD run and in fairness there is some good blocking from teh Dolphins which is well executed. Branch probably should have taken the outside lane and Wheeler may commit too early but McClain should also be able to cover that he has a 5 yard head start due to the angle and knows where the RB is headed after Wheeler shoots the gap.........
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottom line, McClain hasn't improved since day 1. He's the same slow, jogging player he's always been. Which is discouraging because he put work in the offseason to lose weight and work on his speed.

MLB is the leadership position on the field. He's not good leader.

While a lot of guys make mistakes, they don't stick out as badly as when McClain is whiffing in the open field or jogging along behind a ball carrier.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
If McClain is worrying you Tyvon Branch and Philip Wheeler must have you petrified.


Petrified.........Branch at least has played pretty well in the last couple of years and i think Wheeler has been a positive, albeit he has made some rash decisions and mistakes. McClain hasn't really shown anything to suggest he will come good and looks liek another 1st round flop.

Do you not see any positives in Wheeler and Branch??



I think they are on a level with McClain. Average players who I think would be capable of better if they had better players around them. On their own they are nothing special at all. I'll take up Holyghosts line about impact plays and game-changing plays. Branch has 3 career Ints and 6 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in his career so far. Wheeler in the same time has 0 Ints and 2 sacks in his career, 4 forced fumbles make up a bit for that. None of these players are impact players, yet one gets it in the neck for not being an impact players because someone thought he was a 1st round 4-3 MLB.

Branch and Wheeler both get routinely burnt in coverage. Even in that clip you showed both players make some poor decision(really poor on Branch's part) but instead McClain is the one you decided to point out in the play.


I respectfully disagree, I think Branch and Wheeler are solid while McClain is below average and while Wheeler and Branch clearly (in my eyes) have good potential, McClain looks lost. Not every player on the side can or will be an impact player. Some guys just need to do their job (which i think Wheeler and Branch are to a decent level) whilst a MLB needs to command the defence.

I'm not blaming McClain solely for the big play, just saying that I expected him to be a solid contributor, maybe not a superstar but he looks to me slow in speed and thought and is a weak link at present. Wheeler and Branch are IMO not weak links just two guys playing pretty well who can (as you alluded to) flourish with better players surrounding them, particularly if we had someone like Biekert at MLB and a pass rushing DE.

Multiple players take the blame for the Bush TD run and in fairness there is some good blocking from teh Dolphins which is well executed. Branch probably should have taken the outside lane and Wheeler may commit too early but McClain should also be able to cover that he has a 5 yard head start due to the angle and knows where the RB is headed after Wheeler shoots the gap.........



Wheeler will be 28 in December, guys got little potential to improve tbh. Branch is also nearly 3 years older than McClain. No idea how you can say Wheeler at 28 has potential while McClain at 23 is the finished article.

Wheeler and Branch aren't weak links? Come on. Branch got worked so badly at the weekend it was unreal. It's been invisible in coverage. Wheeler isn't much better, given up 3 TDs so far I think. How would a better MLB make these guys flourish? What should McClain be doing to so Branch and Wheeler can actually cover their assigned players?

McClain got chop blocked on that play. Branch and Wheeler both went untouched and both made a complete balls of it. Branch especially, he was horrendous on that play.

big_palooka wrote:
Bottom line, McClain hasn't improved since day 1. He's the same slow, jogging player he's always been. Which is discouraging because he put work in the offseason to lose weight and work on his speed.

MLB is the leadership position on the field. He's not good leader.

While a lot of guys make mistakes, they don't stick out as badly as when McClain is whiffing in the open field or jogging along behind a ball carrier.



Don't blame McClain for your lack of football knowledge. If you can't notice other players mistakes that's on you.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:


Wheeler will be 28 in December, guys got little potential to improve tbh. Branch is also nearly 3 years older than McClain. No idea how you can say Wheeler at 28 has potential while McClain at 23 is the finished article.

Wheeler and Branch aren't weak links? Come on. Branch got worked so badly at the weekend it was unreal. It's been invisible in coverage. Wheeler isn't much better, given up 3 TDs so far I think. How would a better MLB make these guys flourish? What should McClain be doing to so Branch and Wheeler can actually cover their assigned players?

McClain got chop blocked on that play. Branch and Wheeler both went untouched and both made a complete balls of it. Branch especially, he was horrendous on that play.


Wheeler cannot improve at 28??? I'm not sure how old you are but players can improve and find success in a new team and system well into their 30's a certain Rich Gannon should show you that, in fact the Raiders are pretty famous for ressurecting players careers when Al Davis was in his pomp. I think Wheeler can fit in our D nicely and play better than he has previosuly at the Colts - simple as that.

In that play Wheeler shot the gap to stop a cut back lane, Bush was forced outside and should have been contained, it's what you ask of a LB.....should he have stood off and waited for the RB to come waltzing through into the open field?? You are right that Branch takes a bad angle and is deep to begin with. I had high hopes for Mcclain this year but i'm not so blind that i can't reassess my views and i think i was wrong with McClain and that he has shown very little in 3 years and just looks too slow in thought (crucially) aswell as movement. If he comes good then great, but from what i've seen so far he isn't going to.

Branch is a very solid player, Manning is a HoF QB and given time and room (as our CBs were playing deep as they needed the cushion) will take apart any secondary. Branch has numerous times made crucial and TD saving tackles the last few years, regularly hitting the LoS to stop big gains. Can he improve in coverage - yes, of course he can but he is one of our better players and is likely to improve when he's got some help back there aswell. If you don't think he's a good player then we just disagree on that (although Reggie is on my side of that one Laughing ).

I think that given time Branch and Wheeler will flourish, given a good pass rushing DE to make the QB hurry more and a field general MLB (like a Biekert) and a couple of adequate corners......... I didn't mean a MLB alone would cure our defensive ails if thats what you thought?
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:

Wheeler cannot improve at 28??? I'm not sure how old you are but players can improve and find success in a new team and system well into their 30's a certain Rich Gannon should show you that, in fact the Raiders are pretty famous for ressurecting players careers when Al Davis was in his pomp. I think Wheeler can fit in our D nicely and play better than he has previosuly at the Colts - simple as that.

In that play Wheeler shot the gap to stop a cut back lane, Bush was forced outside and should have been contained, it's what you ask of a LB.....should he have stood off and waited for the RB to come waltzing through into the open field?? You are right that Branch takes a bad angle and is deep to begin with. I had high hopes for Mcclain this year but i'm not so blind that i can't reassess my views and i think i was wrong with McClain and that he has shown very little in 3 years and just looks too slow in thought (crucially) aswell as movement. If he comes good then great, but from what i've seen so far he isn't going to.

Branch is a very solid player, Manning is a HoF QB and given time and room (as our CBs were playing deep as they needed the cushion) will take apart any secondary. Branch has numerous times made crucial and TD saving tackles the last few years, regularly hitting the LoS to stop big gains. Can he improve in coverage - yes, of course he can but he is one of our better players and is likely to improve when he's got some help back there aswell. If you don't think he's a good player then we just disagree on that (although Reggie is on my side of that one Laughing ).

I think that given time Branch and Wheeler will flourish, given a good pass rushing DE to make the QB hurry more and a field general MLB (like a Biekert) and a couple of adequate corners......... I didn't mean a MLB alone would cure our defensive ails if thats what you thought?



About a 2% chance Wheeler improves. He's not looked great so far. He's looked what as expected. Average enough starter capable of some good stuff and some terrible stuff. I certainly wouldn't claim he's not a weak link.

On that Bush touchdown Wheeler has to do either 1 of two things. He either needs to make sure he takes the full back out, or else he has to force Reggie inside. The last thing Wheeler should be doing is forcing the play outside at the point of the field. Problem with Wheeler is that he takes the selfish option, he tries to make the tackle himself. This is the problem with this team, we don't play like a team. I wouldn't have expected that from Wheeler, thought he would have been coached better.

Branch does the same thing, simply goes to make the tackle himself at all costs which is just terrible. I have sympathy for Branch, he's been poorly coached it will take awhile for his instincts to change(hopefully they will). Most of the players on this team haven't been coach to play like a team for a long time, it will take time.


I think that given time McClain could flourish into a good player with a good pass-rushing DE, adequate corners and a good strong safety/outside linebacker. Wink Everyone on this team would flourish with an improvement of talent.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
I think that given time McClain could flourish into a good player with a good pass-rushing DE, adequate corners and a good strong safety/outside linebacker. Wink Everyone on this team would flourish with an improvement of talent.


Hehe....... I see what you did there Laughing

I think we can both agree that a pass rushing DE and a couple of staring calibre corners would do wonders though, it's just a huge shame we lost both our starting CBs so early. I don't think we can judge Tarver too harshly given the situation.......and i hope you're right about McClain and he does improve.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the team played well against the chargers when we had every fit(even just Bartell for half of it). Ever since that it's been a nose dive though.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
I thought the team played well against the chargers when we had every fit(even just Bartell for half of it). Ever since that it's been a nose dive though.


Yep, the team was derailed by a freak injury to a long snapper of all things.........

They kept Rivers in check for the most part it's just so frustrating as we could probably deal with the O stuttering if the D was at full strength but we're just not good enough to deal with a ravaged D and a stuttering O at the same time.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Bottom line, McClain hasn't improved since day 1. He's the same slow, jogging player he's always been. Which is discouraging because he put work in the offseason to lose weight and work on his speed.

MLB is the leadership position on the field. He's not good leader.

While a lot of guys make mistakes, they don't stick out as badly as when McClain is whiffing in the open field or jogging along behind a ball carrier.



Don't blame McClain for your lack of football knowledge. If you can't notice other players mistakes that's on you.[/quote]

I notice them. But I've notice McClain over the last 2 years and 4 games far more. He was the guy drafted to shore up the defense. Replace Morrison who many blamed for the troubles on defense.

What we've got is a slow, jogging whiffing MLB who is too quiet a leader to have any impact.

If you want to pretend he's not without fault, then that's on you. He will never be more than average in the NFL. Do you disagree?
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Bottom line, McClain hasn't improved since day 1. He's the same slow, jogging player he's always been. Which is discouraging because he put work in the offseason to lose weight and work on his speed.

MLB is the leadership position on the field. He's not good leader.

While a lot of guys make mistakes, they don't stick out as badly as when McClain is whiffing in the open field or jogging along behind a ball carrier.



Don't blame McClain for your lack of football knowledge. If you can't notice other players mistakes that's on you.


I notice them. But I've notice McClain over the last 2 years and 4 games far more. He was the guy drafted to shore up the defense. Replace Morrison who many blamed for the troubles on defense.

What we've got is a slow, jogging whiffing MLB who is too quiet a leader to have any impact.

If you want to pretend he's not without fault, then that's on you. He will never be more than average in the NFL. Do you disagree?[/quote]


If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.


agree.
maybe he can do better in a 3-4 but in the 4-3 the mlb has to have sideline to sideline speed and high motors. imo rolo doesnt have that. think about the current great 4-3 mlbs.

pat willis
urlacher
vilma
mayo, ray lewis (to a certain degree)
etc

those guys have range and high motors
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.




This is a waste of time with you tbh. I wouldn't agree that he has a massive issue with covering or tackling, you disagree obviously. It is what it is. I also don't give much of a toss if he isn't a leader. He's 23, I don't have ridiculous expectations for the guy to come in and be an excellent leader straight away.

Not sure why people expected such a leader from when he was drafted. His personality hasn't changed really.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFA the Wheelers, Branch, McClain argument.

I'd say there's really not much difference in quality between them all.
I mean, their inconsistencies are different but it all generally adds up the same.

Branch is awful in coverage, consistently. But good in run support consistently.
McClain has a good game every 4 weeks, the rest of it looks pretty poor.
Wheeler makes impact plays, then awful plays.

All 3 of them add something sometime, but more often than not don't do very well. So what's the real distinction there? The only way to have a good defense is to consistently be pretty damn good, and none of them are.


Here's the problem with that analysis.
Branch's flaws can be hidden somewhat as long as he isn't in coverage much. But he is making too much money. He's a 4th rounder and not the defensive leader.
Wheeler is a scrap heap one year contract guy. For what he cost, he's a good find.
McClain on the other hand was drafted in a draft slot where you expect a game changing player. To not find one with that pick hurts alot. Plus he is the defensive team leader and making way too much money for what he does.

The distinct difference between these guys lies more in draft position, importance to the defense and team, and salary. It's there where McClain is miles behind the other two.
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