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Least Talented Team in Football?
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:


Cowboys and Redskins made a living off doing this.


They aren't exactly the standard for cap competence.

Quote:
Everyone always claimed they were in cap hell, yet they still always made moves....albeit usually poor ones.

The Jets cap situation may not look pretty, but they'll be just fine in that regard.

Its the bringing in talent itself which is the real mess, esepcially on offense.


They have quite a few bad contracts on the books and a whole lot of money tied up in the wrong players. They'll be fine if they can effectively bring in young, cheap talent but if not, they're going to stink for a good while.


My point was that the Cowboys and Redskins were always consdiered to be in cap hell and they still made the moves you are now acting like the Jets cant make.

And the 2nd part....thats much more of a ROSTER management issue than a cap management issue. Just as I said...the Jets inability to properly manage and assess talent is the issue...not so much effectively managing the cap. Even if what you say is true....even if they could afford to bring in new talent via FA or whatever....at the current rate they would just keep making the same mistakes over and over because they arent assessing talent well.

So again....while their cap isnt exactly pretty, its managable.

The reason they are in a mess right now, however, is not evaluating talent well....especially on offense.


Yea, this argument isn't going anywhere. I don't agree with you at all on this.

I've never once argued that their player management and acquisitions isn't the current issue but the way they were spending money and getting under the cap is/was unsustainable. Tannenbaum, imo, has failed entirely as their GM.


For one....my issue was with the fact that you were saying the cap management is what has CAUSED the current mess, when that is not the case.

Secondly, you still have yet to explain what makes their cap situation so unmanageable. You just keep saying it, but that alone doesnt make it true. Do they have money pushed back into future years? Yes. Do they have some contracts locked up in some older/poor players. Sure....but they arent in the cap hell you make them out to be.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Cleveland - So many rookies and 2nd year players. They could very well be one of the most talented teams in the league, they just don't have the experience, therefore, they don't have the wins to prove it. Right now, it's impossible to not include Cleveland at the bottom. People keep saying the Rams are a younger team, but the Browns have the youngest starting 22 and certainly the least experienced starting 22 in the league.


That's a major stretch.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia: If you have large contracts that you have restructured multiple times, you will have issues. The Jets share some similarity with the 2005-2007 Redskins from the standpoint of poor drafting and consistent restructuring of deals to get under the cap. You need both of these things to engage the perfect storm. I do not think the Jets are in as dire shape as the Redskins were because the Redskins kept signing major contracts, while the Jets have seemed to relent (Sanchez as an exception).

The Redskins were able to make it work because they had a cap guru in their employ (Eric Schaeffer), but successful manipulation of the cap figure served to embolden the FO, which in turn led to a colossally bad free agent (Fat Al). Fat Al's contract was a bit of an exception as the Redskins had crossed over the hump, and many of their contracts were off the books. Nevertheless, the restructurings were still impacting the roster composition, including Jansen, Samuels, Portis, S.Moss. Not to forget that there was significant dead cap from Sean Taylor, Brandon Lloyd, Cornelius Griffin, Marcus Washington, etc.

The product was unsustainable, and they were able to get out of a consistent cycle of restructuring (the only thing they could do each year to get under the cap) because they planned for the lockout. With the lockout, they were able to capitalize - they could wipe the dead cap off the books, and rid themselves of players who survived to that point because of previously agreed roster bonuses.

Now, if the Jets need to restructure again AND they sign some bigger contracts, then we can start to compare them to the 2007-2009 Redskins. But frankly, the Redskins cap problems were on a different level than anyone else. I would not be surprised if similarities occur in the next 5 years because of the 'value' of QB contracts.

*If anyone has a good link to the Jets cap breakdown, I would love to see it.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Raiders, easily.

They have some nice young pieces on offense in Moore, McFadden, Reece, Veldheer.

On defense, they don't have a pass rusher to speak of. They have some role players, but have lacked a playmaker on that side of the ball for literally 10 years (exception maybe Burgess).

They have little to no depth as evident by the injuries that derailed their secondary.

Talent has been an issue for 10 year now in Oakland, with Davis favoring the 'win now' model of trading draft picks for guys like Moss, Seymour, Hall who didn't have anything around them to win. And poor draft picks over the last decade. Outside Asomugha/McFadden, not a single 1st round pick has been worth while.

McKenzie and his staff were put in a tough spot. No picks due to Jackson's desperate Palmer trade, the 2nd traded to NE for Barksdale/Jones and the 3rd for Pryor. Coupled w/ bloated contracts to average players that had to be balanced.

Oakland is in for a 3-5 year rebuild. They need an influx of talent on both sides of the ball.
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green24


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
FourThreeMafia: If you have large contracts that you have restructured multiple times, you will have issues. The Jets share some similarity with the 2005-2007 Redskins from the standpoint of poor drafting and consistent restructuring of deals to get under the cap. You need both of these things to engage the perfect storm. I do not think the Jets are in as dire shape as the Redskins were because the Redskins kept signing major contracts, while the Jets have seemed to relent (Sanchez as an exception).

The Redskins were able to make it work because they had a cap guru in their employ (Eric Schaeffer), but successful manipulation of the cap figure served to embolden the FO, which in turn led to a colossally bad free agent (Fat Al). Fat Al's contract was a bit of an exception as the Redskins had crossed over the hump, and many of their contracts were off the books. Nevertheless, the restructurings were still impacting the roster composition, including Jansen, Samuels, Portis, S.Moss. Not to forget that there was significant dead cap from Sean Taylor, Brandon Lloyd, Cornelius Griffin, Marcus Washington, etc.

The product was unsustainable, and they were able to get out of a consistent cycle of restructuring (the only thing they could do each year to get under the cap) because they planned for the lockout. With the lockout, they were able to capitalize - they could wipe the dead cap off the books, and rid themselves of players who survived to that point because of previously agreed roster bonuses.

Now, if the Jets need to restructure again AND they sign some bigger contracts, then we can start to compare them to the 2007-2009 Redskins. But frankly, the Redskins cap problems were on a different level than anyone else. I would not be surprised if similarities occur in the next 5 years because of the 'value' of QB contracts.

*If anyone has a good link to the Jets cap breakdown, I would love to see it.

http://nyjetscap.com/salary.html

The Jets have $8.1 million in cap space carried over from the past offseason. That coupled with the cuts of Jason Smith, Bart Scott, and Calvin Pace push the Jets to more than $24 million under the salary cap. Cutting/trading Eric Smith and Tim Tebow can take that number past $30 million. Another $10 million could be cleared after the 2013 season, when Mark Sanchez and Santonio Holmes can be cut. That's not a bad situation at all.
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I'm so confident in the Skins this season (offensively), I think they challenge the Patriots scoring record.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you really say the Jets, when they are only 2-2 and only a season and 5/17th's removed from an AFC Championship game...and still virtually the same team?

lolloolololololllolol
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas94Ware wrote:
..and still virtually the same team?


Uh....not really.

Braylon Edwards - Gone
Santonio Holmes - On IR - is he even in the Jets plans beyond this year?
Darrelle Revis - On IR
Brandon Moore - Worse
Damien Woody - Gone
Jerricho Cotchery - Gone
Tony Richardson - Gone
LaDanien Tomlinson - Gone
Shaun Ellis - Gone
Brodney Pool - Gone
Jim Leonhard - Gone
Jason Taylor - Gone
Drew Coleman - Gone
Brad Smith - Gone
Bart Scott - Significantly worse


9 of the 27 players who started 5+ games are gone.
Their leading rusher is gone

3 of their top 5 receivers are gone. Those three had 146 combined catches out of 288 (51%). Only 76 receptions from that 2010 team were made by active 2012 Jets.

On defense, 3 of the 5 guys with more than 3 sacks are gone. 8 of the 12 INT's were made by guys who are no longer with the team

Oh, and their O-Coordinator is gone too.

Quote:

lolloolololololllolol


I'm laughing too, but more at your ridiculous assertion that it's the same team. The Jets went to back to back AFCCG's on the back of a superb defense and a "ground and pound" running game. Thomas Jones and LaDainian Tomlinson have been replaced by Shonn Greene (who was on the 2010 team but has somehow gotten much worse). The right side of the OL has deteriorated. The DL is still pretty good but the LB's and DB's are worse due to age, injuries and turnover.

I wouldn't say they're the least talented team in the league, but they're definitely worse than either the 2010 team. If you include the current injuries to Holmes and Revis, they're much much worse and IMO a bottom 5 team in the NFL.
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fluhartz


Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jags
Colts
Jets
Browns

all are actually bad teams..
Browns, Jags and Colts are young.. The Jets are just a bad "team" and with the injuries they have had, I could see them getting worse....
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floppyflaps


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that I would have to come into this thread to defend the Bucs.

I will anyways despite no mentions.

The Bucs have a lot of talent, but have had bush league coaching for a while.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Santonio Holmes - On IR - is he even in the Jets plans beyond this year?
They'd prefer not, but they're paying his salary next year either way, so probably. Only way they're off the hook is if they get somebody dumb enough to trade for him.
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patdt13


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

el oh el at people thinking the Dolphins are the worst team in the league.
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ArodFanboy


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say it, but I think its the Jets. Obviously Hill and Coples have elite potential, but outside of them the Jets really lack young talent. Alot of the other "bad" teams in the league at least seem to have some promising youth or a solid defensive unit/run game (Jags, Browns, etc) but when I look at the Jets, it just seems like that team is regressing extremely quickly and I don't see any names that can fill the void left by the losses they have had since their deep playoff run two years ago. Can anyone imagine if Revis comes back from this ACL injury as merely a top 10 corner (not saying that's going to happen)? An overhaul is needed, but I think the injuries to Revis and Holmes buy Rex and Tannenbaum another year. To much working against them this season to realistically still compete in the AFC.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's the Chiefs

If this were the "worst team" thread then I'd argue that it could be the Chiefs (I'll wait until after we play them before I make any such argument though Laughing) But as far as talent, the Chiefs do have a good amount of talent. They have Jamaal Charles, who is a top RB in this league. They have a great stable of backup RBs. They have some talent along the OL. They have IMO a top 10 WR in Bowe. Everyone knows that Baldwin has talent, he's simply a headcase and needs to utilize his talent to reach his potential.

On the defensive side of the ball you have two dynamic pass rushing options, a DL with talent. The defensive backfield has a safety who has yet to return to form, but once he does is one of the best. The corners have played at a high level at one point or another in their careers.

So really it seems that the Chiefs issue is coaching and durability to this point. Not that they're simply outmatched in the talent department. If they get a QB and improve their coaching, they could actually (finally) live up to some of the preseason hype they tend to generate every year.


Thanks...that's all I needed to hear. A neutral endorsement of the talent. I just don't believe the other Chief threads would have as many visitors as they do if people weren't jealous/praiseworthy of what we could have with better coaching/qb play. If I thot another team was truly overrating their talent, I'd laugh and leave it alone. Chief threads don't get ignored, that's for sure.

Only thing I would add is Baldwin isn't a headcase, he worked hard this offseason, was dominant in TC, and has played well on the field this year. However there are a limited number balls to WR's with #7 behind center and most of them still go to Bowe. Atleast one Charger fan agreed he was open, Cassel just couldn't find him. He's still on pace for 700 yards, getting less than 4 targets a game. 10 catches in 15 targets.


I know I'm sure jealous of the Chiefs.

Anyway, it's probably the Jets or Oakland, although I think the Raiders are in better position to pull things together
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
FourThreeMafia: If you have large contracts that you have restructured multiple times, you will have issues. The Jets share some similarity with the 2005-2007 Redskins from the standpoint of poor drafting and consistent restructuring of deals to get under the cap. You need both of these things to engage the perfect storm. I do not think the Jets are in as dire shape as the Redskins were because the Redskins kept signing major contracts, while the Jets have seemed to relent (Sanchez as an exception).

The Redskins were able to make it work because they had a cap guru in their employ (Eric Schaeffer), but successful manipulation of the cap figure served to embolden the FO, which in turn led to a colossally bad free agent (Fat Al). Fat Al's contract was a bit of an exception as the Redskins had crossed over the hump, and many of their contracts were off the books. Nevertheless, the restructurings were still impacting the roster composition, including Jansen, Samuels, Portis, S.Moss. Not to forget that there was significant dead cap from Sean Taylor, Brandon Lloyd, Cornelius Griffin, Marcus Washington, etc.

The product was unsustainable, and they were able to get out of a consistent cycle of restructuring (the only thing they could do each year to get under the cap) because they planned for the lockout. With the lockout, they were able to capitalize - they could wipe the dead cap off the books, and rid themselves of players who survived to that point because of previously agreed roster bonuses.

Now, if the Jets need to restructure again AND they sign some bigger contracts, then we can start to compare them to the 2007-2009 Redskins. But frankly, the Redskins cap problems were on a different level than anyone else. I would not be surprised if similarities occur in the next 5 years because of the 'value' of QB contracts.

*If anyone has a good link to the Jets cap breakdown, I would love to see it.

http://nyjetscap.com/salary.html

The Jets have $8.1 million in cap space carried over from the past offseason. That coupled with the cuts of Jason Smith, Bart Scott, and Calvin Pace push the Jets to more than $24 million under the salary cap. Cutting/trading Eric Smith and Tim Tebow can take that number past $30 million. Another $10 million could be cleared after the 2013 season, when Mark Sanchez and Santonio Holmes can be cut. That's not a bad situation at all.


But that's exactly the point. Yes, you CAN put yourself into a better cap situation by making some cuts, but you're cutting key contributors when you don't have the talented depth behind them to step in. You're going to take an even bigger step back by trying to fix the mistakes that restructuring caused.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
FourThreeMafia: If you have large contracts that you have restructured multiple times, you will have issues. The Jets share some similarity with the 2005-2007 Redskins from the standpoint of poor drafting and consistent restructuring of deals to get under the cap. You need both of these things to engage the perfect storm. I do not think the Jets are in as dire shape as the Redskins were because the Redskins kept signing major contracts, while the Jets have seemed to relent (Sanchez as an exception).

The Redskins were able to make it work because they had a cap guru in their employ (Eric Schaeffer), but successful manipulation of the cap figure served to embolden the FO, which in turn led to a colossally bad free agent (Fat Al). Fat Al's contract was a bit of an exception as the Redskins had crossed over the hump, and many of their contracts were off the books. Nevertheless, the restructurings were still impacting the roster composition, including Jansen, Samuels, Portis, S.Moss. Not to forget that there was significant dead cap from Sean Taylor, Brandon Lloyd, Cornelius Griffin, Marcus Washington, etc.

The product was unsustainable, and they were able to get out of a consistent cycle of restructuring (the only thing they could do each year to get under the cap) because they planned for the lockout. With the lockout, they were able to capitalize - they could wipe the dead cap off the books, and rid themselves of players who survived to that point because of previously agreed roster bonuses.

Now, if the Jets need to restructure again AND they sign some bigger contracts, then we can start to compare them to the 2007-2009 Redskins. But frankly, the Redskins cap problems were on a different level than anyone else. I would not be surprised if similarities occur in the next 5 years because of the 'value' of QB contracts.

*If anyone has a good link to the Jets cap breakdown, I would love to see it.


Thanks for the info....but Im not sure you were trying to make a point against me or support my point, but either way, that actually strengthens my point two-fold....because a) it was stupidity in just handing out random contracts to players who didnt deserve to be paid so lucratively, and b) the Redskins were in even worse shape than the current Jets, but their cap issues isnt what kept them in the doghouse and isnt a major issue 3-4 years later.

Bottom line....the Jets cap situation is manageable and isnt even close to the real "mess" on that team. If they had the same cap situation but actually hit on guys like Mark Sanchez, Santonio Holmes (trade), and even going back further....Vernon Gholston....they would be a very good team right now and their cap issues wouldnt even be discussed.

But even with those cap issues, their main issue remains finding and evaluating the talent....not what their cap currently looks like. Not to say it doesnt pose a problem at all, but if they start to manage talent better in terms of it helping their team, they will be fine. They already have alot of talent on defense even...they just lack a pass rush and a QB....and to a lesser extent, a RB.
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