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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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Location: Wales, UK
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


Not sure how you can say thriving....... I'd say he is playing extremely well despite the system rather than because of it, he only has 5 TDs in 4 games and the offensive performances against Miami and Denver were pretty dire. The Steelers game was 99% Palmer winning it out of nothing. McFadden is struggling right now and a great running game is a QBs best friend, also the WR play has been average at best so the system is hardly giving Palmer an armchair ride.

Carson Palmer has definately gone up in my estimation though, just imagine what he could do with a running game like we should have and more accurate WR play.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


To be fair, the WRs are what they and with the injuries aswel we have not been put in a great position...........but to get the best out of Palmer the running game has to be working and it simply isn't under this system. Palmer has really impressed me so far this season but i just think how much more we could get if we had McFadden running like the beginning of last year and we had even the threat of a deep ball. Last year seemed like we were on the right track, sure it wasn't perfect and CP did throw a huge number of INTs but there were extenuating circumstances and i would have thought it reasonable that if we stayed in the smae system the familairity and execution would have increased especially with essentially the same personell.

I'm not against a WCO type system but the blocking and running game has to improve to get that working and theres no indication so far that that can happen IMHO.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


To be fair, the WRs are what they and with the injuries aswel we have not been put in a great position...........but to get the best out of Palmer the running game has to be working and it simply isn't under this system. Palmer has really impressed me so far this season but i just think how much more we could get if we had McFadden running like the beginning of last year and we had even the threat of a deep ball. Last year seemed like we were on the right track, sure it wasn't perfect and CP did throw a huge number of INTs but there were extenuating circumstances and i would have thought it reasonable that if we stayed in the smae system the familairity and execution would have increased especially with essentially the same personell.

I'm not against a WCO type system but the blocking and running game has to improve to get that working and theres no indication so far that that can happen IMHO.




It all might have increased but would happen if DMAC got injured again?
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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
TheAutumnWind wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
lilcrazycat1 wrote:
i would not mind trading down to get more picks , espec since we dont have a 2

+1

This is the only thing I would add to the original post as much as it would hurt to pass on a player as impactful as Milliner. The Raiders will regret not drafting Josh Chapman. Cam Thomas was another 5th rounder, iirc, that folks on this board were high on.


Yup... flipped my lid when we passed on him twice... or was it 3x's!?? (although I was happy we picked up Burris) Can't believe also that we didn't nab Richard Sherman from Stanford in the 5th!!! Kid is lookin really good so far Brick wall



We took D.Moore in the 5th. An excellent pick.


We took more last year. I think that was the cringer pick this year. Btw what has chapman done this year? And we weren't the only team to pass on him more than once.


Richard Sherman was a 2011 draft pick. Not 2012.


Chapman is on the PUP list.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dessie wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
TheAutumnWind wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
lilcrazycat1 wrote:
i would not mind trading down to get more picks , espec since we dont have a 2

+1

This is the only thing I would add to the original post as much as it would hurt to pass on a player as impactful as Milliner. The Raiders will regret not drafting Josh Chapman. Cam Thomas was another 5th rounder, iirc, that folks on this board were high on.


Yup... flipped my lid when we passed on him twice... or was it 3x's!?? (although I was happy we picked up Burris) Can't believe also that we didn't nab Richard Sherman from Stanford in the 5th!!! Kid is lookin really good so far Brick wall



We took D.Moore in the 5th. An excellent pick.


We took more last year. I think that was the cringer pick this year. Btw what has chapman done this year? And we weren't the only team to pass on him more than once.


Richard Sherman was a 2011 draft pick. Not 2012.


Chapman is on the PUP list.


So chapman is contributing as much as bergstrom. Saying this draft class is bad at this point is retarded. You don't know how good they could be lets compare our players in three years.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.


How about no one's thriving? You realize that just because Carson Palmer looks good throwing the ball, doesn't mean he's being successful. Thriving and playing well are two completely different things. If Carson Palmer was thriving, we'd be scoring more points, converting better on 3rd down, and seeing the redzone far more often. None of those things are his fault, but the fault of his scheme, which is why it's ludicrous to say any part of the offense is thriving.

I get that you like sticking up for Greg Knapp at any chance you can, but I find it funny that you're trying to make it seem like Knapp's offense is built around the QB just because we can't run the ball. You'll deny that, but that's really the logic you're using.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


IMO Carson Palmer was a great fit for the vertical threat Al Davis game, big armed QB with the accuracy to hit deep balls and not afraid to throw into coverage or take a few chances. Also for the system employed by Jackson and Saunders last year IMO.

The system we're currently installing with Greg Knapp seems (admittedly from viewing only a couple pre-season and 3 of 4 regular season games) from all indications to be a short throw, very low risk WCO with lots of quick outs and lateral routes with only the odd deep route thrown in. TE's have seen a fair bit of action compared to last year and DMac in particular getting lots of quick looks.

I'm not saying Palmer cannot play in this system as for me he has done very well, but i think it's clearly not playing to his strengths as a big play threat and also with our wideouts being an UDFA (Streeter), a guy off the street (Hagan), a 2nd year wideout (Moore) and a guy with average hands (DHB) when you need accurate, precise route runners who can catch well in traffic with good timing is clearly not ideal.



Turning the ball over has been Palmer main strength for the last few years. Hardly surprising we want to move away from that.


I take it you're not a fan of Palmer then............



I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


He did lead our offense to more points in that system, and that was without McFadden. In this system, his completion percentage is the same as last year, and his INTs are way down, but so are our trips to the endzone. At this point, I would rather see him throwing more interceptions if it meant we were scoring 24+ points like we did in most of his starts in the old system. Our D isnt good enough to allow us to win scoring 14 points a game.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


IMO Carson Palmer was a great fit for the vertical threat Al Davis game, big armed QB with the accuracy to hit deep balls and not afraid to throw into coverage or take a few chances. Also for the system employed by Jackson and Saunders last year IMO.

The system we're currently installing with Greg Knapp seems (admittedly from viewing only a couple pre-season and 3 of 4 regular season games) from all indications to be a short throw, very low risk WCO with lots of quick outs and lateral routes with only the odd deep route thrown in. TE's have seen a fair bit of action compared to last year and DMac in particular getting lots of quick looks.

I'm not saying Palmer cannot play in this system as for me he has done very well, but i think it's clearly not playing to his strengths as a big play threat and also with our wideouts being an UDFA (Streeter), a guy off the street (Hagan), a 2nd year wideout (Moore) and a guy with average hands (DHB) when you need accurate, precise route runners who can catch well in traffic with good timing is clearly not ideal.



Turning the ball over has been Palmer main strength for the last few years. Hardly surprising we want to move away from that.


I take it you're not a fan of Palmer then............



I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


He did lead our offense to more points in that system, and that was without McFadden. In this system, his completion percentage is the same as last year, and his INTs are way down, but so are our trips to the endzone. At this point, I would rather see him throwing more interceptions if it meant we were scoring 24+ points like we did in most of his starts in the old system. Our D isnt good enough to allow us to win scoring 14 points a game.



Palmer only averaged 19.4 points per game last year, this year it's been 16.8.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


To be fair, the WRs are what they and with the injuries aswel we have not been put in a great position...........but to get the best out of Palmer the running game has to be working and it simply isn't under this system. Palmer has really impressed me so far this season but i just think how much more we could get if we had McFadden running like the beginning of last year and we had even the threat of a deep ball. Last year seemed like we were on the right track, sure it wasn't perfect and CP did throw a huge number of INTs but there were extenuating circumstances and i would have thought it reasonable that if we stayed in the smae system the familairity and execution would have increased especially with essentially the same personell.

I'm not against a WCO type system but the blocking and running game has to improve to get that working and theres no indication so far that that can happen IMHO.




It all might have increased but would happen if DMAC got injured again?


With no Bush to fill in it would seriously suck, but at least Palmer would be putting the ball downfield hitting 60% of his passes, rather than hitting 60% of his passes but not moving the chains with these shorter routes. We would certainly see more interceptions, but we would also see our TDs increase. Its a catch-22: score more points but turn the ball over more with a crappy D giving up points or not turning the ball over and not scoring points with the same crappy D giving up a ton of points. At least, in theory, the old system would result in more points so we could keep up with teams scoring at will on our D, thats assuming our backup RBs could at least do what Bush did last year.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


IMO Carson Palmer was a great fit for the vertical threat Al Davis game, big armed QB with the accuracy to hit deep balls and not afraid to throw into coverage or take a few chances. Also for the system employed by Jackson and Saunders last year IMO.

The system we're currently installing with Greg Knapp seems (admittedly from viewing only a couple pre-season and 3 of 4 regular season games) from all indications to be a short throw, very low risk WCO with lots of quick outs and lateral routes with only the odd deep route thrown in. TE's have seen a fair bit of action compared to last year and DMac in particular getting lots of quick looks.

I'm not saying Palmer cannot play in this system as for me he has done very well, but i think it's clearly not playing to his strengths as a big play threat and also with our wideouts being an UDFA (Streeter), a guy off the street (Hagan), a 2nd year wideout (Moore) and a guy with average hands (DHB) when you need accurate, precise route runners who can catch well in traffic with good timing is clearly not ideal.



Turning the ball over has been Palmer main strength for the last few years. Hardly surprising we want to move away from that.


I take it you're not a fan of Palmer then............



I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


He did lead our offense to more points in that system, and that was without McFadden. In this system, his completion percentage is the same as last year, and his INTs are way down, but so are our trips to the endzone. At this point, I would rather see him throwing more interceptions if it meant we were scoring 24+ points like we did in most of his starts in the old system. Our D isnt good enough to allow us to win scoring 14 points a game.



Palmer only averaged 19.4 points per game last year, this year it's been 16.8.


Right, which is why I said our offense scored 24+ points in most of his starts ( 6 out of 9, to be exact). This year we have only scored over 14 points in 25% of our games. Last year we did that in 88% of Palmer's starts last year. Not that 14 points is a lot, but its still a big difference between the two years, and 6 games of 24+ points is pretty good. Thats enough points for a team with a respectable D to win- too bad we dont even have that.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


IMO Carson Palmer was a great fit for the vertical threat Al Davis game, big armed QB with the accuracy to hit deep balls and not afraid to throw into coverage or take a few chances. Also for the system employed by Jackson and Saunders last year IMO.

The system we're currently installing with Greg Knapp seems (admittedly from viewing only a couple pre-season and 3 of 4 regular season games) from all indications to be a short throw, very low risk WCO with lots of quick outs and lateral routes with only the odd deep route thrown in. TE's have seen a fair bit of action compared to last year and DMac in particular getting lots of quick looks.

I'm not saying Palmer cannot play in this system as for me he has done very well, but i think it's clearly not playing to his strengths as a big play threat and also with our wideouts being an UDFA (Streeter), a guy off the street (Hagan), a 2nd year wideout (Moore) and a guy with average hands (DHB) when you need accurate, precise route runners who can catch well in traffic with good timing is clearly not ideal.



Turning the ball over has been Palmer main strength for the last few years. Hardly surprising we want to move away from that.


I take it you're not a fan of Palmer then............



I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


He did lead our offense to more points in that system, and that was without McFadden. In this system, his completion percentage is the same as last year, and his INTs are way down, but so are our trips to the endzone. At this point, I would rather see him throwing more interceptions if it meant we were scoring 24+ points like we did in most of his starts in the old system. Our D isnt good enough to allow us to win scoring 14 points a game.



Palmer only averaged 19.4 points per game last year, this year it's been 16.8.


And its actually 22 PPG if you dont count the KC game where he only played the second half while we were already down 20-something.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


IMO Carson Palmer was a great fit for the vertical threat Al Davis game, big armed QB with the accuracy to hit deep balls and not afraid to throw into coverage or take a few chances. Also for the system employed by Jackson and Saunders last year IMO.

The system we're currently installing with Greg Knapp seems (admittedly from viewing only a couple pre-season and 3 of 4 regular season games) from all indications to be a short throw, very low risk WCO with lots of quick outs and lateral routes with only the odd deep route thrown in. TE's have seen a fair bit of action compared to last year and DMac in particular getting lots of quick looks.

I'm not saying Palmer cannot play in this system as for me he has done very well, but i think it's clearly not playing to his strengths as a big play threat and also with our wideouts being an UDFA (Streeter), a guy off the street (Hagan), a 2nd year wideout (Moore) and a guy with average hands (DHB) when you need accurate, precise route runners who can catch well in traffic with good timing is clearly not ideal.



Turning the ball over has been Palmer main strength for the last few years. Hardly surprising we want to move away from that.


I take it you're not a fan of Palmer then............



I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


He did lead our offense to more points in that system, and that was without McFadden. In this system, his completion percentage is the same as last year, and his INTs are way down, but so are our trips to the endzone. At this point, I would rather see him throwing more interceptions if it meant we were scoring 24+ points like we did in most of his starts in the old system. Our D isnt good enough to allow us to win scoring 14 points a game.



Palmer only averaged 19.4 points per game last year, this year it's been 16.8.


wait so you counted the KC game into the 19.4. Cmon Raidin you are better than that.
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


To be fair, the WRs are what they and with the injuries aswel we have not been put in a great position...........but to get the best out of Palmer the running game has to be working and it simply isn't under this system. Palmer has really impressed me so far this season but i just think how much more we could get if we had McFadden running like the beginning of last year and we had even the threat of a deep ball. Last year seemed like we were on the right track, sure it wasn't perfect and CP did throw a huge number of INTs but there were extenuating circumstances and i would have thought it reasonable that if we stayed in the smae system the familairity and execution would have increased especially with essentially the same personell.

I'm not against a WCO type system but the blocking and running game has to improve to get that working and theres no indication so far that that can happen IMHO.




It all might have increased but would happen if DMAC got injured again?


With no Bush to fill in it would seriously suck, but at least Palmer would be putting the ball downfield hitting 60% of his passes, rather than hitting 60% of his passes but not moving the chains with these shorter routes. We would certainly see more interceptions, but we would also see our TDs increase. Its a catch-22: score more points but turn the ball over more with a crappy D giving up points or not turning the ball over and not scoring points with the same crappy D giving up a ton of points. At least, in theory, the old system would result in more points so we could keep up with teams scoring at will on our D, thats assuming our backup RBs could at least do what Bush did last year.


The Raiders O had the most 20+ yard plays over the past 2 seasons. Darren McFadden lead the league in the same stat. The offense would be completely different if they had good coaching using Palmer and McFadden right. I'm so bummed that this is how the Raiders O looks.
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