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Who should start at cb?
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toler got attacked as much in the second half as Gay did in the first. Major differences I noticed were A] The pressure was better in the second half and B] The QB was not throwing as well in the second half.

The worst thing about what we did in the second half was the Toler on the outside with Gay in the slot left Fleming wanting for reps.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Toler got attacked as much in the second half as Gay did in the first. Major differences I noticed were A] The pressure was better in the second half and B] The QB was not throwing as well in the second half.

The worst thing about what we did in the second half was the Toler on the outside with Gay in the slot left Fleming wanting for reps.


Yup. Fleming only played 12 defensive snaps. Not a fan of that.

Good problem to have though, don't get me wrong.
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).
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iRobot


Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).


Toler had some real flashes the last season he played opposite of DRC.

A lot of people think Toler bites because he's had some plays where he's given up some big yards. Problem is, when he was opposite of DRC.. the ball was thrown at Toler OFTEN. He learned while under fire and he was coming into his own well at the end of that season.

The season of his knee injury, I had high expectations and hopes for Toler. If he can get back to his pre-injury form, I think he'll make a lot less mental mistakes and pick a few passes off. He has all the physical tools to be good/great.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iRobot wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).


Toler had some real flashes the last season he played opposite of DRC.

A lot of people think Toler bites because he's had some plays where he's given up some big yards. Problem is, when he was opposite of DRC.. the ball was thrown at Toler OFTEN. He learned while under fire and he was coming into his own well at the end of that season.

The season of his knee injury, I had high expectations and hopes for Toler. If he can get back to his pre-injury form, I think he'll make a lot less mental mistakes and pick a few passes off. He has all the physical tools to be good/great.


He also had some forgettable moments. He was benched in favor of Mike Adams for a good stretch of games in 2010.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).


Issue with Toler is this, he is a developing corner, yet he is the same age (very nearly literally, 1 day separates the two) as the vastly more experienced William Gay. He has never flashed as much as Gay has on the field, Gay knows the system better and then you throw in two guys who are 4-5 years younger in Fleming and Peterson who are likely the two guys we are going to want to start for us into the future, you are looking at two 27 year old guys to play the slot. One of which is a vastly experienced player both in the NFL and within the shcme and has extensive experience playing in the slot. The other is a still under development, coming off a torn knee ligament, small school CB with less NFL games than the other has starts.

There is going to be an odd guy out here and in this situation I think Toler is that guy.
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#1CARDSFAN


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).

Watching Toler get burned constantly since he has been here. Toler isn't starter material but is serviceable as a nickle or dime corner.
Cody Brown? Not sure what that bum has to do with anything. He sucks also.
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DieHardCard


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).



Issue with Toler is this, he is a developing corner, yet he is the same age (very nearly literally, 1 day separates the two) as the vastly more experienced William Gay. He has never flashed as much as Gay has on the field, Gay knows the system better and then you throw in two guys who are 4-5 years younger in Fleming and Peterson who are likely the two guys we are going to want to start for us into the future, you are looking at two 27 year old guys to play the slot. One of which is a vastly experienced player both in the NFL and within the shcme and has extensive experience playing in the slot. The other is a still under development, coming off a torn knee ligament, small school CB with less NFL games than the other has starts.

There is going to be an odd guy out here and in this situation I think Toler is that guy.


Barring injury I think the candidates to start on the outside opposite of PP are 1A) GT 1B) Flemming and Gay in a distant 3rd. I heard an interview where Floyd and Roberts were asked which CB on the roster was the most difficult to beat of the line physical/press coverage and the answer was not PP, it was Greg Toler. He is a tremendous athlete and is a bigger more physical player than Gay. I think the reason we have not seen much of GT to this point is his knee has been still on the road to recovering 100%.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DieHardCard wrote:
Barring injury I think the candidates to start on the outside opposite of PP are 1A) GT 1B) Flemming and Gay in a distant 3rd. I heard an interview where Floyd and Roberts were asked which CB on the roster was the most difficult to beat of the line physical/press coverage and the answer was not PP, it was Greg Toler. He is a tremendous athlete and is a bigger more physical player than Gay. I think the reason we have not seen much of GT to this point is his knee has been still on the road to recovering 100%.


But ultimately we are not looking for a starter, that role will be Flemings sooner rather than later (He already plays on the outside for the majority of his snaps) what we are looking for is a lot CB and that is where Gay provides value. He is very good in the solt and Toler has rarely if played against slot receivers he is more of an outside guy.

If I had to chosee between Toler and Gay to start on the outside it would be Toler, but with Fleming in the mix Gay is better than Toler in the Slot I the upside of Fleming is much more than what Toler can provide.
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DJ_Fka


Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have 1 great CB at the moment, that part is true.

We have 3 above average to good CBs

We had one bad day at the office, by some of the 3 above.

If that happens again, doesnt it mean it is a problem? If it happens only once, then isnt it an abberation?

I thought we played too far off all game, hence easy catches and YAC, that is a coaching thing, not a player thing.
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DieHardCard


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DieHardCard wrote:
Barring injury I think the candidates to start on the outside opposite of PP are 1A) GT 1B) Flemming and Gay in a distant 3rd. I heard an interview where Floyd and Roberts were asked which CB on the roster was the most difficult to beat of the line physical/press coverage and the answer was not PP, it was Greg Toler. He is a tremendous athlete and is a bigger more physical player than Gay. I think the reason we have not seen much of GT to this point is his knee has been still on the road to recovering 100%.


But ultimately we are not looking for a starter, that role will be Flemings sooner rather than later (He already plays on the outside for the majority of his snaps) what we are looking for is a lot CB and that is where Gay provides value. He is very good in the solt and Toler has rarely if played against slot receivers he is more of an outside guy.

If I had to chosee between Toler and Gay to start on the outside it would be Toler, but with Fleming in the mix Gay is better than Toler in the Slot I the upside of Fleming is much more than what Toler can provide.


Having competition between GT and Fleming for that spot is great. We really have some solid depth/talent right now at CB.
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1CARDSFAN wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).

Watching Toler get burned constantly since he has been here. Toler isn't starter material but is serviceable as a nickle or dime corner.
Cody Brown? Not sure what that bum has to do with anything. He sucks also.


I'm using Cody Brown as an example of someone who didn't work hard enough to come back from an injury - Toler by all accounts has worked hard enough.

Toler has been burned - I don't understand where you get the constantly part though. He played pretty darn well opposite DRC a couple years ago at times (remember the game against the Cowboys that year?) - and looked even better going into last year.

I'm more excited about Toler than the others except PP and Fleming because he has flashed a higher ceiling - and mostly as a cover corner (rather than a solid tackling nickel).
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DieHardCard wrote:
Barring injury I think the candidates to start on the outside opposite of PP are 1A) GT 1B) Flemming and Gay in a distant 3rd. I heard an interview where Floyd and Roberts were asked which CB on the roster was the most difficult to beat of the line physical/press coverage and the answer was not PP, it was Greg Toler. He is a tremendous athlete and is a bigger more physical player than Gay. I think the reason we have not seen much of GT to this point is his knee has been still on the road to recovering 100%.


But ultimately we are not looking for a starter, that role will be Flemings sooner rather than later (He already plays on the outside for the majority of his snaps) what we are looking for is a lot CB and that is where Gay provides value. He is very good in the solt and Toler has rarely if played against slot receivers he is more of an outside guy.

If I had to chosee between Toler and Gay to start on the outside it would be Toler, but with Fleming in the mix Gay is better than Toler in the Slot I the upside of Fleming is much more than what Toler can provide.


Fleming's up-side is really high, no doubt - but given the abilities he has flashed, I refuse underestimate what ceiling Toler can reach just because he's 27 - that isn't too old yet (30/31 and still learning - yeah, that would be too late).

Just what DieHardCard and others have said - and what you have heard from coaches about the guy indicate to me that he can be pretty darn good when he reaches his full potential.

IMO this is the perfect situation for competition getting the best out of the position.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).

Watching Toler get burned constantly since he has been here. Toler isn't starter material but is serviceable as a nickle or dime corner.
Cody Brown? Not sure what that bum has to do with anything. He sucks also.


I'm using Cody Brown as an example of someone who didn't work hard enough to come back from an injury - Toler by all accounts has worked hard enough.

Toler has been burned - I don't understand where you get the constantly part though. He played pretty darn well opposite DRC a couple years ago at times (remember the game against the Cowboys that year?) - and looked even better going into last year.

I'm more excited about Toler than the others except PP and Fleming because he has flashed a higher ceiling - and mostly as a cover corner (rather than a solid tackling nickel).


LOL, I do. Burned for 2 long 20+ yard passes. Pick 6 went off the hands of Martellus Bennett.

Not a good example.
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Gay of course. Toler bites.


I just don't get where people get this opinion of Toler. He was really looking good in camp before he was injured last year - he has flashed skills, but also looked like a young player - which he was before, and coming from a small school. Now after one big injury apparently he's trash? The guy has worked a lot harder than Cody Brown - give him some credit.

I'll take a guy who has flashed the type of skills and athleticism he has any day - I'd start Gay this week, but with Toler still getting better from the injury I can see him beating out Gay and becoming the full time starter (like he would have been last year without the injury).

Watching Toler get burned constantly since he has been here. Toler isn't starter material but is serviceable as a nickle or dime corner.
Cody Brown? Not sure what that bum has to do with anything. He sucks also.


I'm using Cody Brown as an example of someone who didn't work hard enough to come back from an injury - Toler by all accounts has worked hard enough.

Toler has been burned - I don't understand where you get the constantly part though. He played pretty darn well opposite DRC a couple years ago at times (remember the game against the Cowboys that year?) - and looked even better going into last year.

I'm more excited about Toler than the others except PP and Fleming because he has flashed a higher ceiling - and mostly as a cover corner (rather than a solid tackling nickel).


LOL, I do. Burned for 2 long 20+ yard passes. Pick 6 went off the hands of Martellus Bennett.

Not a good example.


Hey - a pick-6 is still a good highlight even if he's just taking advantage of the ball bouncing off the receiver's hands. It's hard to find examples people remember of a CB's performance from a couple of years ago.
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